Low Berth Politics

[Father Fletch]

Is there a Sophonts Right to Movement or Travel in the OTU?
In the excellent Vorkosigan Series by Lois McMaster Bujold a major social change that occurred shortly before the events of the stories was the lifting of restrictions on the movement of serfs from one domain to another. The idea was that Vor (Think Barons) who best employed and took care of his people would have more people moving to his domain, and the tight ass bastard would see his tax base leaving in droves.
Does the Imperium or did Cleon (or Arbellatra or the Emperor of your choice) make it a requirement of admission to the Imperium that citizens or subjects of a planet be allowed, within their means, to “vote” with their feet?
It seems that by simply allowing some mobility, political change and sophonts rights would be ensured. If you don’t like this guy, go somewhere else for CrImp 1000. The low berth as tool of political expression, if somewhat limited, makes sense. You could even have Ballot Box stuffing by subsidizing a bunch of Low Berth Transports and visiting repressive governments around the subsector to pick up the “poor huddled masses.” Then offer them a grubstake if they vote your way.

 

[Jame]

I've never really thought about it. Two things, though (triple word score for using all "t"s). First, IMTU it doesn't really apply 'cause MTU is more like the Hive Federation. Second, wouldn't the tight-fisted lord do his best to ensure that his serfs don't leave, possibly by keeping the information from them? Sort of the way that American slave-owners would often keep slaves illiterate to keep them from asserting themselves?

 

[Whipsnade]

Father Fletch wrote:

"Is there a Sophonts Right to Movement or Travel in the OTU?"


Mr. Fletch,

Short answer: No. There is freedom of movement between starports; the free trade the Imperium guarantees, but there is no freedom of movement across a starport's extrality line. The extrality line on some worlds will resemble that of the property line around a 21st Century airport. On other worlds, it will resemble the border between North and South Korea. And life goes on.

Long answer: No. The precise nature of the Third Imperium's government is a hotly debated topic. However, it is best envisioned as an association of planetary governments and not an association of individual citizens. Regardless of the CT supplement of that name, actual 'Imperial citizens' are either relatively few in number or completely non-existant.

The role and position of Imperial nobles on Imperial member worlds will vary greatly, just as the relationship between the Imperium and its member worlds varies greatly. As a feudal entity, the Imperium operates under the principle of 'territorial supremacy' instead of 'territorial sovereignty'. The latter term is one which we denizens of the 21st Century West, with our cultural notions of the 'nation-state', automatically and subconciously assign to the idea of 'government'.

Other than the proscriptions on weapons of mass destruction and chattel slavery; both observed more in the breach than in fact, the Imperium's relationship with or control over a member world depends on the manner in which the world joined the Imperium, legal precedence, and custom. Those three variables will shape the Third Imperium - Member World relationship and control the movement of people's between the world and the Imperium at large.

Now, with all that being said, MTU is not the OTU. Low berth travel IMTU is cheap and safe; 21st Century Western air travel cheap and safe. Low berth holiday trippers, tech reps, salesmen, students, and tour groups routinely 'freeze out' at their point of origin, are shipped to their destination as little more than cargo, and thawed upon arrival. This idea does imply freedom of movement within MTU, but no freedom of immigration.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Short answer: No. There is freedom of movement between starports;

If by 'Freedom' you mean 'regulated by the Navy and Imperial Bureaucracy's whims', then I can accept that.

Long answer: No. The precise nature of the Third Imperium's government is a hotly debated topic. However, it is best envisioned as an association of planetary governments and not an association of individual citizens. Regardless of the CT supplement of that name, actual 'Imperial citizens' are either relatively few in number or completely non-existant.

At the moment, with no supporting citations, I'd call this an unsupported conclusion.

Do we really have *any* idea how easy or hard it is to be an "Imperial Citizen", what that *really* means, and whether one can be such a thing while also being a citizen of X system?

Other than the proscriptions on weapons of mass destruction and chattel slavery;

A rudimentary human rights law. (Sophont rights... pardon me).

Note there are also the Shudusham (sp) accords, IIRC and some sort of Universal Declaration of Sophont Rights, is there not?

I'm not saying that the Empire is the haven of human or sophont rights. But we don't know that 3/4 of those living in Imperial Space are considered 'Imperial Citizens'. Maybe the term has very little concrete meaning unless you are a noble, so maybe it doesn't *matter* that they are so, but they may notionally be Imperial Citizens. And many of those worlds may have their own versions of Sophonts Rights.

Also, note that Sophonts rights movements are not precluded, whatever Imperial Policy currently be on the matter. In fact, an abscence of Imperial Policy may strongly suggest a movement!

 

[mike wightman]

IMTU I have always used a combination of the Roman system mixed with Starship Troopers citizenship. You could be born into a noble family and automatically qualify for citizenship or you could voluntarily serve in one of the Imperial Forces or bureaucracy and be granted Imperial Citizenship.

Some planetary governments IMTU core systems were directly controlled by the Imperium and so everyone born in those systems qualified as a citizen.

The situation on the frontier worlds is very much different. Some worlds encourage their population to seek Imperial status and look forward to the day the whole world qualifies as an Imperial Core System, while others do the complete opposite and reserve Imperial Citizenship for the ruling classes only and prevent their populations from Imperial contact.

And of course there are many inbetween.

On the subject of slavery, in a journal article on planet building (fleshing out the stats) uses the planet Craw in the Glisten subsector as an example. The low population of 6 is explained as the remenants of a lost human colony, while to give the planet a sufficient agrarian base a sizable population of natives is postulated whose figures don't count in the official census and are used as slave labour.

I therefore used the idea that the Imperium prohibits slave trading but not slavery as such on member worlds. One PC had the background of being one such slave who managed to "slip over the fence" and was able to volunteer for Imperial Army service, earn Imperial Citizenship and then return to his homeworld years later protected by his Imperial Status.

I'll let you guess the direction of the campaign from that point on.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Short answer: No. There is freedom of movement between starports;

If by 'Freedom' you mean 'regulated by the Navy and Imperial Bureaucracy's whims', then I can accept that.
</font>[/QUOTE]

It is actual freedom. At least as much freedom of movement those in the United States enjoy. Sure there are places you can't go in both systems (e.g. military bases), but for the most part you can go where you want when you want.

Do we really have *any* idea how easy or hard it is to be an "Imperial Citizen", what that *really* means, and whether one can be such a thing while also being a citizen of X system?

Except for Imperial nobility, there are no "real" Imperial Citizens. Oh sure, everyone born on an Imperial world is called an "Imperial Citizen", but that doesn't actually mean anything. (Other than getting a cool ID card.)

While on a planet, you are subject to their laws, no matter how stupid or arbitrary they are. The Roman model doesn't work, because there is no right to appeal to the Imperial system.

A perfect example is given in The Traveller Adventure. When the adventurers are on Pysadi and one of them breaks a ridiculous local law that no one has told them about, the adventurer is stuck. The only option is for the other adventurers to go and do a jail break!

And the Shudusham Accords dealt with robotics, cybernetics, and artificial intelligences. The Sudusham Concords dealt with weaponry carried by robots.

As far as I can tell, there is no "sophonts rights" agreement or accord.

 

[far-trader]

I've always figured you were an Imperial Citizen (i.e. full rights to Imperial Justice) if you were:</font>

• A Noble</font>
• Active Imperial Service (Army, Navy, Marine, Scout)</font>
• Retired Imperial Officer (Army, Navy, Marine)</font>
• Detached Duty Scout</font>

Everybody else better mind their pees and queus or they'll be short of luck.

Primarily the benifit of being a Citizen is one of appealing to the higher Imperial Court if, like the in the adventure, you run afoul of some obscure law that the Imperium will let you off the hook for. On the other hand those Imperial Prison Planets exist for a reason, the baddest of the bad who were once Imperial Citizens and are now nobody.

 

[Hecateus]

I figure MTU that Low Berths get more survivable as TL increases. at TL9 there is a 1 in 10 mortality...only the desperate do this. At TL 11 it is 1 in 1000 for the poor but adventurous; at TL 13, 1 in 100,000 die, a tolerable rate for most poor semi-risky travellers.

Politically, the 3rd Empire, and many superstates like it, are confederate in nature; Sophonts are civilians, belonging to the state they were born into. But the Empirial starports and Empirially registered ships and other bodies ('roids etc.) are a normal place to be born as an empirial civilian; insert tales of desperate soon-to-be mothers trying to break into starport so their children can be protected by Imperial rights...but being a Citizen (whether the sophont is a client worlder or a civilian from an Empirial district) with all of it's privilleges, requires a demonstration of responsibility through some sort of service. Those born to nobility merely get access to such service more readily.

I say: If one wishes to protect their life, liberty and property, then they must risk some of the same; for to risk nothing is to risk everything.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by daryen:
It is actual freedom. At least as much freedom of movement those in the United States enjoy. Sure there are places you can't go in both systems (e.g. military bases), but for the most part you can go where you want when you want.

Or is Freedom like Pregnancy, in that you can't just be 'a little bit Free'? I won't touch this argument, but I will point out it exists.

Except for Imperial nobility, there are no "real" Imperial Citizens. Oh sure, everyone born on an Imperial world is called an "Imperial Citizen", but that doesn't actually mean anything. (Other than getting a cool ID card.)

Is even that true? I wonder.

Even the Nobles seem constrained under some circumstances.

And the Shudusham Accords dealt with robotics, cybernetics, and artificial intelligences. The Sudusham Concords dealt with weaponry carried by robots.

Yes, but resident in that document is a discussion of artifical intelligence and what does and does not constitute a being with the same rights as a citizen.

 

[kaladorn]

I find Hecateus' theory interesting, but not backed up by fact. Most of the Imperial Nobility has never risked life nor limb and it is probably debatable who, other than themselves, they may have provided 'service' to.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
And the Shudusham Accords dealt with robotics, cybernetics, and artificial intelligences. The Sudusham Concords dealt with weaponry carried by robots.

They're also not enacted at the Imperial level. Many individual worlds have enacted legislation based on the Shuddusam Concords, which implies that some haven't.


Hans

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
And the Shudusham Accords dealt with robotics, cybernetics, and artificial intelligences. The Sudusham Concords dealt with weaponry carried by robots.

They're also not enacted at the Imperial level. Many individual worlds have enacted legislation based on the Shuddusam Concords, which implies that some haven't.
Hans </font>[/QUOTE]But, they are enacted at the "Imperial Level". The Imperial Level governs (IMTU) the space between worlds. Extrality zones, Starports and the like, as well. So though the Empire has not forced this upon member worlds (not their style or the nature of the beast), they have undoubtedly Implemented this in 'the space between'.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
And the Shudusham Accords dealt with robotics, cybernetics, and artificial intelligences. The Sudusham Concords dealt with weaponry carried by robots.

They're also not enacted at the Imperial level. Many individual worlds have enacted legislation based on the Shuddusam Concords, which implies that some haven't.
Hans </font>[/QUOTE]But, they are enacted at the "Imperial Level". The Imperial Level governs (IMTU) the space between worlds. Extrality zones, Starports and the like, as well. So though the Empire has not forced this upon member worlds (not their style or the nature of the beast), they have undoubtedly Implemented this in 'the space between'. </font>[/QUOTE]I wasn't talking about your Traveller Universe, I was talking about the OTU.

"The Concords have no legal force in the Third Imperium , but many worlds have adopted similar or identical standards using the Concords as a template, and most robots produced commercially in the Imperium are designed with these restrictions in mind." [Library Data]


Hans

 

[MrMorden]

IMTU, the Imperium is rather enlightened in this regard. Of course the Imperium most resembles a feudal system, but that doesn't mean it does not recognize the social and economic benefits that freedom brings.

While there is no "Bill of Rights" in the Imperium, for the most part IMTU the Imperial forces act as if there were. Citizens cannot be deprived of property without cause and/or compensation, freedom of speech and religion are recognized, the right to keep and bear arms is understood as the best deterrent against lawlessness, and so forth.

Of course, where Imperial security is threatened or martial law exists, these "rights" evaporate rather quickly. But such is the nature of monarchy.

 

[Hecateus]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
I find Hecateus' theory interesting, but not backed up by fact. Most of the Imperial Nobility has never risked life nor limb and it is probably debatable who, other than themselves, they may have provided 'service' to.

of course only the thinnest patina of service is required for a weasely noble to come out ahead.
...just ask our Glorious Leader Dubya Bush.

 

[themink]

Citizenship IMTU -
i) Only pureblood humans(Solomani) can ever be imperial citizens.
ii) Any human can serve the imperium for four or more years and be granted citizenship (Or have their noble rank increased by 1 grade)
iii) Any child of a ranked noble has their rank reduced by one (ie the children of a Baron all become knights)
iv) As well as the upgrade by service (so you can get to the same rank as your parent) you can get extra noble ranks for deeds of daring do


Citizenship is important for the following:-
i) Every ship needs an owner of record - this must be an imperial citizen (ie Solomani) they have a registered will which is probated in imperial court before their death and the owner is responsible for the ship. This leads to a ship which has a "front man" human but is actually owned/run by a human breed/non-human/corporation
ii) Only imperial citizens have any rights in imperial space!
iii) Only imperial citizens can sign legal contracts which are enforced by the imperial police.
iv) there is a large underground "sophonts rights" movement
v) Terrorism is rife - but tends to be limited to starports (it is hard to get off-planet access)
vi) Children of citizens are covered by their parents rights until they hit adulthood (18) by which time they need to either join up or find a planet which will accept them.

I like it as a universe because it seems reasonably stable however has lots of in-built inequities as player hooks.

for example
- one of the human PCs was adopted by heavy worlders it doesn;t seem fair that their "parents" don;t have the same rights that they do
- one of the PCs failled the medical to get into the navy, bought someone elses ID and is traveling under a false name. When they are discovered, all their contracts become invalid and the ship that they own (ie the PCs ship) will revert to the origional owner!

Lots of Laughs all round

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by kaladorn:

LEW blathered: "Long answer: No. The precise nature of the Third Imperium's government is a hotly debated topic. However, it is best envisioned as an association of planetary governments and not an association of individual citizens. Regardless of the CT supplement of that name, actual 'Imperial citizens' are either relatively few in number or completely non-existant."

kaladorn sagely replied: "At the moment, with no supporting citations, I'd call this an unsupported conclusion."


Gentlemen,

Travelling for business certainly cuts into my Traveller time! I missed this when it first was posted. (Tomb - I also still owe you that re-write!)

The supporting citations for my suppositions regarding Imperial citizenship are littered throughout OTU canon, not in essays on Imperial government or the existence of an Imperial 'bill of rights' but in the myriads of adventures, amber zones, and planetary write-ups. For whatever reasons, the Third Imperium tolerates the existence of absolutely wretched member worlds. The population of those worlds may be 'Imperial citizens' but that designation does not prevent their masters from swimming in the peoples' blood or setting their thrones on a mountain of skulls. There seem to be very few benefits; as in 'none', attached to the 'Imperial citizenship' label.

There are many examples of this to varying degrees, but one will suffice here. The DGP/MT write-up of the Deneb Sector included a world, whose name escapes me, ruled by the 'Ward of Vision'. In a ripoff of a ST:TOS episode, the 'Ward' and his cronies lived amidst hi-tech splendor in the healthy uplands while the bulk of the population slaved and starved through shortened, lo-tech lives in the deadly lowland mines. The Ward prohibited all off-world contact and kept most of the planet laboring in a near Stone Age existence that would have made Hobbes wince. It is suggested that the Ward and his system are tolerated because he "makes the trains run on time".

Later on, TNE used this abattoir to illustrate Norris' 'Representational Reforms'. Volunteers in the thousands snuck onto the planet, avoided the Ward's security services, and slowly crafted a 'liberation theology' with which to rouse the masses. While hundreds of these volunteers were martyred, the rebellion they engendered overthrew the Ward and his system. The planet, rechristened 'Lucifer', is held out as a model in the Regency. It is selected as one of the Boost-to-TL16 project worlds and produces more than its share of the volunteer 'Representational Reform' agent provocateurs that beaver away on the few remaining planetary charnal houses the 3I's policies left to the Regency.

While the Ward and his world are an extreme example, a cursory search of OTU canon will reveal any number of planetary systems with hellish governments and societies; hellish in the eyes of we 21st Century Westerners that is. The laissez faire nature of the Third Imperium; perhaps the only way 11,000 worlds and 11,000 cultures can be welded into a single polity, allows member worlds to do nearly anything as long as the Imperium itself is not threatened. This idea is not new and was debated on the TML as recently as 2 years ago. During that thread, Mr. Ayer's created his satiric masterpiece, the corporate slavers of MYMINES Ltd., to illustrate the concept. MYMINES carefully observes every jot and tittle regarding the known and presumed 'rights' of Imperial 'citizens' while legally operating a series of slave labor camps throughout the Spinward Marches.

In our 21st Century Western mindset the label 'citizen' is frieghted with various assumptions, the chief being the assumption of certain 'rights' being intergral to the label. That assumption is a fairly recent one in human history and is one that is not held even held worldwide today. There are citizens and then there are citizens. One cannot make the argument that the legal and cultural meaning of 'citizen' in the USA or EU is in any way equivalent to the legal and cultural meaning of 'citizen' in Saudia Arabia, China, or Somalia. Similarly, we should not infer 21st Century Western assumptions regarding the meaning of 'citizen' or the idea of 'government' to the 57th Century, self-described fuedal, Third Imperium.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[kaladorn]

Larsen,

I heard and agree with most of the above. The Empire tolerates all manner of differing viewpoints, etc. within its nominal borders. These include nasty dictatorships, exploitive autocracies, etc.

But, that does not mean that some or all of these are not considered 'Imperial Citizens'. There are good questions, as you point out, about what meaning this *really* has (and if in fact there are multiple classes of Imperial Citizen, as their may well be).

Furthermore, there may be a significant number of transient or interplanetary members of Imperial Civilization. It was the characterization of this group as small in number that I wondered about. I'm not sure this is the case. There may, in fact, be a very large number of Imperial Citizens. But if you are not a noble, Imperial Citizenship and CR 1.50 will get you a cup of TJ's coffee juice....

 

[Father Fletch]

Thank you all for the wonderful posts. This just supports my idea of the low berths being a guerilla warfare and oppressed masses way of trying to get a better deal. There are politics in low berth, and this gives me ideas for games.
What about a customs patrol that stops the pc's ship and demands that all the low berth passengers be awakened? Hilarity ensues.
Thanks again and Does anyone have a copy of the Corporate Masters of MYMINES? I would love to read it if it is archived or published elsewhere on the web.

 

[Whipsnade]

Father Fletch wrote:

"This just supports my idea of the low berths being a guerilla warfare and oppressed masses way of trying to get a better deal. There are politics in low berth, and this gives me ideas for games."


Mr. Fletch,

Getting across the starport's extrality line in order to 'freeze out' in that low berth and escape may be problematic. Of course, the word 'problematic' is just another term meaning 'adventure seed'!

"Thanks again and Does anyone have a copy of the Corporate Masters of MYMINES? I would love to read it if it is archived or published elsewhere on the web."

The 'Mailing Lists' link at the top of the page will take you to the TML. You need not subscribe to the TML to read the archives. If memory serves, Mr. Ayer's delightful MYMINES creation appeared during the first half of 2001. The corporation figured prominently in the (in)famous 'Brawl at the Haul'; a spasm of silliness in which many TMLers posted 'in charecter' detailing their actions in a bar fight that escalated into a paroxysm of 'freelance urban renewal' that rivaled that of Beirut in the 1980s. MYMINES appeared towards the end of the episode and whisked away two of its 'employees', the same two individuals whose actions had turned a bar fight into a city wrecking riot in the first place.

Have fun perusing the TML Archives. Look for post entitled 'MYMINES' or posts from Mark Ayers. You can search archived months by poster or title.


Sincerely,
Larsen