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Love and marriage between other races

I have long wondered how people think about marriages or love relationship with with member of another Race in Third Empire. Sure, everything varies from planet to planet in Traveller. But how it is generally in those sectors where the influence of Imperial civilization is strongest?

How have you people bringed this up in your games?
 
I have long wondered how people think about marriages or love relationship with with member of another Race in Third Empire. Sure, everything varies from planet to planet in Traveller. But how it is generally in those sectors where the influence of Imperial civilization is strongest?

I would suspect that in the Imperial core (and especially in the Solomani Sphere) inter-species relationships are at least frowned upon if not actively persecuted. Certainly between non-genetically related species. I suspect even the more morphologically divergent Humans would be "fair game", and relationships between any members of Humaniti would be accepted in most parts of Charted Space. (Again, maybe not in the Solomani Sphere....)

Out in the Marches and unincorporated areas, I would think the rules would be less standardized, though romantic (or at least physical) love between non-genetically compatible species would IMHO be uncommon, since it seems unlikely to me that, for example, a Bwap and a Vargr would find each other attractive. (They might become the best of friends, in the "opposites attract" sort of way of course, but we're talking about "love & marriage".)

Inside other stellar polities, it would depend. I personally believe that all species would tend to favor their own naturally and that there would always be exceptions to that rule. Each "state" would decide what to do with the "deviants" on it's own (re-educate them, leave them alone, suppress them, etc.)

Zhodani - my suspicion is that they would have a "Humaniti on Humaniti only" policy without any regard for what breed of Humans are involved, and anyone found to suffer from bestiality would be re-educated.

Vargr - Almost no rules at all (as typical for Vargr), though I suspect that most Vargr would feel a little funny about getting romantically involved with "naturally evolved" creatures. (Though there's always the whole dog "leg dry-hump" thing to refute that idea, LOL)

K'Kree - definitely not, and they'd "encourage" the lesser species in their domain to behave themselves as well.

Hivers - definitely not. But then again, I don't think they even have the concept of marriage and love in a way that makes such discussions meaningful.

Vegans - Can't see it. (And really, who'd want to? :grin:)

Aslan - Strangely, this is one of the few I can almost see it with. With the caveat that since Aslan seem to associate "Sex" with "Job" and they sort of see all Humans as looking alike, they might get confused and fall in love with a male Darrian Engineer, for example. But at the end of the day, I don't think it would work out in general - clan and appropriate gender roles are too important to Aslan psychology, and even though some outcasts might go for it, I can't see any clans allowing inter-species relationships.

Darrians(Yes, they're genetically part of Humaniti, but their culture sets them apart) - They're demonstrably willing to pair with non-Darrian Humans, but their stoic and ordered way of looking at things means to me that even were a Darrian to fall in love with a non-human, they'd never let those feelings show.

Droyne - Not a chance. They don't even sit down to eat without consulting the coyns.
 
Vargr - Almost no rules at all (as typical for Vargr), though I suspect that most Vargr would feel a little funny about getting romantically involved with "naturally evolved" creatures. (Though there's always the whole dog "leg dry-hump" thing to refute that idea, LOL)

the dry-hump is a dominance behavior. it's the dog trying to be dominant over the person...

the sophontological equivalent is rape, not love.
 
the dry-hump is a dominance behavior. it's the dog trying to be dominant over the person...
the sophontological equivalent is rape, not love.

I know, I was trying (unsuccessfully) to make a rude joke.

Though that does raise some uncomfortable questions about what sorts of behavior a Vargr might find acceptable....

(Again, I'm not being entirely serious - it's not like Humans consider poo flinging to be acceptable behavior.)
 
Most dominance behaviors have a sexual display component. Hell, one of the most common assertions of male dominance in english is "He can suck my ****", and genderless is "kiss my ass" or "kiss my butt", and those are frequently portrayed as parasexual acts as much as submissive acts.

Hell, much of foreplay is submission-behavior.

Given human and vargr biological compatibility and physical compatibility (Tab A & Slot B, both used by both species for the same purposes in each), it's both more physically possible AND biologically hazardous... minor infection for one may more readily cross the boundary, and when it does, is more likely to be severe, than for Aslan or Newt, as the biological infectious organism is more likely to find compatible tissue and not find antibodies... The vargr we can be reasonably certain have sufficient size and shape similarity for consensual relatively normal (aside from the species issue) sexual congress. Based upon extant behaviors, it's likely the uplifted chimps, orangutans, and bears (ursa) would be willing to try, and are likewise mechanically capable.

Male non-uplifted Dolphins have been known to be aroused by human females in estrus, and to make precopulatory behaviors at them, so the uplifts are almost assuredly going to be able to be aroused by humans; I've not heard of female dolphins acting receptive towards humans, but female dolphin sexual response is not nearly as obvious as male dolphin sexual response...

The question of whether a droyne and human could find a compatible physical coupling... Or a Virush, or newt or ithklur...

But amongst uplifted terran species, yes, I fully expect Rishathra* to exist when the physio-mechanical aspects render it "relatively normal"... IE, when each side uses it's normal sexual organs in the normal manner upon the normal sexual organs of the partner. It's most likely to be taboo where and when it's either injurious to one partner, or produces non-viable pregnancies.

*Rishathra: trans-species non-procreative sexual acts, usually heterosexual. Term coined by Larry Niven in Ringworld.

(Again, I'm not being entirely serious - it's not like Humans consider poo flinging to be acceptable behavior.)

Have you ever seen video of maximum security prisons? Poo flinging is common misbehavior.
 
Why do I have a feeling that we're going to end up with a Traveller Netbook of Erotic Fantasy or something similar...?

Tagline:

"Calling someone a stupid monkey f^cker is now physically possible with our new and improved rules for sex with uplifted Chimps!"

:rofl:
 
I have long wondered how people think about marriages or love relationship with with member of another Race in Third Empire. Sure, everything varies from planet to planet in Traveller. But how it is generally in those sectors where the influence of Imperial civilization is strongest?

How have you people bringed this up in your games?

Initial reaction; ewwwwwwwwwwwwww...

But, if the "other race" is merely another human, and she's a hottie ;), then why not?
 
Just a technical note: There is a confusion between 'races' and 'species' in Traveller*.

The so-called other 'races' are unquestionably different species, and the definition of 'species' is genetically diverse groups that are incapable of fruitful reproduction.

Of course, reproduction is not an essential component of love and marriage.

*A 'race' is a subdivision of a specie - Human races (oriental, caucasian, etc) are capable of interbreeding, whereas different species (humans, dogs, etc) are not.

/lecture. ;)
 
Legally I think that the Imperium regards all marrages as secular contracts, and I also think that the boilerplate of membership treaties include some 'full faith and credit' provisions. So it comes down to what individual worlds will accept. And that can vary a lot.

Local toleration will depend a lot on the squick factor. If people are grossed out by the concept of a relationship, they'll rationalize these feelings by calling the relationship 'unnatural'.

The Zhodani (Homo sapiens zhodotlas) dislike the idea that they are interfertile with other human races so much that they insist that they're actually a different hominid species than Homo sapiens (Homo zhodotlas) even though this is completely untrue. They could have laws against marriage with any non-Zhodani. Meanwhile, some places may be perfectly OK with relationships between two hominid races that look much alike, even if they're not interfertile, but not with realtionships between Geonee or Suerrat and less distinct human races, even if they are interfertile.

The Aslans must have some legal provisions to handle alliances between racially Aslan Aslan clans and racially human Aslan clans. These may include formal marriages of some sort.


Hans
 
Just a technical note: There is a confusion between 'races' and 'species' in Traveller*.

The so-called other 'races' are unquestionably different species, and the definition of 'species' is genetically diverse groups that are incapable of fruitful reproduction.
Not quite true. 'Race' is mostly used in the SF sense of 'alien race' rather than the Old Terran sense of a large group of people distinguished from others on the basis of common, genetically linked, physical characteristics (Not the only definition of race even on Old Terra, incidentally). But when it comes to humans, it is used for a human population whose ancestors were planted on a world of their own by the Ancients around -300,000 and which developed separately from other human-inhabited worlds (Plus the Solomani). (See Minor Human Race). Some of these human races are still interfertile with each other, such as the Solomani, Vilani, Zhodani, Darrians, Answerin, Geonee, Iltharans, Irhadre, Syleans, and Yileans, but they are still considered different human races.

Others have diverged enough in those 300,000 years not to be interfertile with other human races; they're sometimes referred to as Hominid races (Homo sapiens is also hominid, but the term is usually used to refer to a human race that isn't H. sapiens).

The determining factor for minor human race status is having had a homeworld for 300,000 years or more. If the Ancients transplanted populations of alien races (none known, but why shouldn't there be a few tucked away in obscure corners of Charted Space?), their descendants would likewise be regarded as separate races even if they were still interfertile.


Hans
 
I would imagine it WOULD be possible for mutually alien species to conceive using high-tech genetics and a deviant enough scientist. Once that happens, marriage may be a requirement in some societies regardless of species.
 
*A 'race' is a subdivision of a specie - Human races (oriental, caucasian, etc) are capable of interbreeding, whereas different species (humans, dogs, etc) are not.

A horse and a donkey are difference species, but can still reproduce, although the offspring is a sterile mule.
 
A horse and a donkey are difference species, but can still reproduce, although the offspring is a sterile mule.
The criterion is being able to produce fertile offspring. That's why horses and donkey's are considered different species.

(Things get a lot less clearcut with less complex organisms, btw.)


Hans
 
The criterion is being able to produce fertile offspring. That's why horses and donkey's are considered different species.

(Things get a lot less clearcut with less complex organisms, btw.)


Hans

Things get a lot less clear with canids. Many hybrid canids are fertile. Coyotes, wolves and dogs are all interfertile, but comprise 3 to 5+ species (depending on which biologist you ask).

Lynx and housecats can interbreed, too, but very seldom do, and the offspring are sometimes fertile. (And strange, too.)
 
Things get a lot less clear with canids. Many hybrid canids are fertile. Coyotes, wolves and dogs are all interfertile, but comprise 3 to 5+ species (depending on which biologist you ask).

Lynx and housecats can interbreed, too, but very seldom do, and the offspring are sometimes fertile. (And strange, too.)
Wolves and dogs are the same species, (Canis lupus and C. lupus familiaris) so no surprise there. I hadn't heard about coydogs before; they're fertile, albeit with reduced fertility and increased chance of genetic problems, so you have a point there.


Hans
 
Actually, the distinction between species is one of the likeliness of interbreeding. Wolves and domestic dogs are different species (canis lupus and canis domesticus) but can breed successfully. There are other (more are being discovered) species which can breed genetically but don't due to mating call, or geographic location.
That said, inter-species breeding on an interstellar scale (human/alien) is unlikely on a tremendous scale. Human/raised animal breeding is only a question of the level of DNA tampering (are they mostly human with animal DNA inserted or vise-versa?)
I watched a show on "Oliver" the chimp that appeared to be a human/chimp crossbreed (DNA showed he was neither) One of the people interviewed said "Those out there who think a human would never have sex with a chimp must not know very many humans." I think that fits here too. :)
 
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