Louzy and the Population:Gravity dilemma

[Ulsyus]

My players are Travelling though the Regina and Jewell subsectors in the direction of the Consulate, and have to make a stop in Louzy in order to jump further spinward.


Checking the info in the wiki and by Foreven, the world is a heavily populated tech 8 world. T5 p447 indicates a Siz 3 world has 0.375g. Given that gravitic technology isn't mainstream until TL10, and that there'd be issues with natives of Louzy trying to get offworld (as info suggests people have since the collapse of the mining boom that built the enconomy to support the large population), do you lot take this to mean that there arcologies with leftover grav technology in place to enable something like normal life there, or do you have some other explanation? Are they all just tall and beanpolish and unable to migrate to other worlds without geneering well beyond their reach?

 

[rancke]

Checking the info in the wiki and by Foreven, the world is a heavily populated tech 8 world. T5 p447 indicates a Siz 3 world has 0.375g.

The size has been changed to 4. That should up the gravity a bit.

Given that gravitic technology isn't mainstream until TL10, and that there'd be issues with natives of Louzy trying to get offworld (as info suggests people have since the collapse of the mining boom that built the enconomy to support the large population), do you lot take this to mean that there arcologies with leftover grav technology in place to enable something like normal life there, or do you have some other explanation? Are they all just tall and beanpolish and unable to migrate to other worlds without geneering well beyond their reach?

Louzy may have a greater than average density (heavy metals may be the source of the taint).

I'm not aware that a gravity of 0.4 is a problem. Whatever detrimental effects there may be is probably countered by medical drugs.


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

Yeah, that would do it. Louzy was a mining world, so if it's considered to have a higher density and the size is now 4, then that puts the gravity at 0.72, which with a few supplements is not beyond the ability of people to cope with should they leave.

That leads to the atmosphere problem. Either every building would have to be pressurised to deal with the very thin tainted atmosphere, or they live in subterranean sealed environments or arcologies. Given the tech level, underground cities, set up possibly in mined out areas, seems just as likely as above ground arcologies.

Thoughts?

 

[rancke]

That leads to the atmosphere problem. Either every building would have to be pressurised to deal with the very thin tainted atmosphere, or they live in subterranean sealed environments or arcologies. Given the tech level, underground cities, set up possibly in mined out areas, seems just as likely as above ground arcologies.

Humans can't breathe very thin air, so habitations would have to be sealed anyway. And in the event of a puncture, the internal pressure would keep the tainted air from getting in. If the pressure gets low enough to admit outside air, the inhabitants have bigger troubles.


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

I've got that Hans. The question for me is how that is achieved for a population in the billions on a world with only TL8. Hence the query about subterranean habitations (exits can be limited and controlled & pressure/filter issues more easily managed) or above ground (more difficult to achieve everything at TL8)

 

[rancke]

I've got that Hans. The question for me is how that is achieved for a population in the billions on a world with only TL8. Hence the query about subterranean habitations (exits can be limited and controlled & pressure/filter issues more easily managed) or above ground (more difficult to achieve everything at TL8)

Evidently TL8 habitats are good enough for space habitats (by which I also mean economically feasible) ; they should be good enough for world surfaces with trace atmospheres.

That said, extensive cave complexes sounds like an excellent reason why the population has grown so uncommonly large. You're right about habitats being more expensive to establish than log cabins on Human-norm worlds. And I don't believe that the mining boom can have brought billions of people to Louzy. Jundreds of thousands, yes. Millions, possibly. Tens of millions I doubt. So most population expansion must have taken place afterwards.

There's the explanation I use for the billions living on and especially in orbit around Rethe: habitat construction as public work programs. The government tried to alliviate unemployment by constructing new habitats. Once constructed, people naturally expanded to fill them, leading to more work programs needed. Probably encouraged by a strong habitat builders' lobby.

As an aside, note that the text says that it took Louzy centuries to recover, implying that by the Classic Era it has recovered.

Now, if only I could come up with an explanation for a pop A, TL8 world without at least a Class C starport. An extensive Class C starport. (Apparently the Louzy system either don't have any use for space shuttles or it buys them instead of building them itself).


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Just sharing my thoughts ...

Building underground is far more expensive than building on the surface (but less than building in space). Just using CT numbers for a first guess, order of magnitude estimate:
1. Surface preparation is FREE, just start building.
2. Tunneling is 1000 credits per dTon, from the asteroid hull rules.
3. Space is 100,000 credits per dTon, from starship hulls ... (other rules suggest that space habitats could cost less, the 10,000 credits per dT for a drop tank comes immediately to mind)

Examining the planet closer: with an atmosphere and a magnetosphere, the surface is safe from radiation. So a world without both of those would probably NEED to live underground or inside a starship hull.

If I needed to house Billions of people on this world, I would look hard at inflatable structures. A large double shell dome held rigid by internal air pressure. I would select a transparent or translucent material to admit sunlight but block the excess UV that gets through the thin atmosphere. Some research suggests that an inflatable dome 1 km diameter is technologically achievable at TL 7+.

Again using CT numbers for a first guess, order of magnitude estimate, the survival ball suggests 600 credits per dT of internal volume ... and the square cube relationship of surface area to volume suggests that the cost per dT will be lower as the diameter increases.

As an interesting feature, you can look up and watch the dome ripple under the faint external winds.

YMMV

 

[aramis]

Concrete cloth domes. We know these to be airtight, and mars (trace atm) deployable.

Price is listed as about $1100 per unit in a Reuters article

Using T5's credit method, a 2.5m peak dome runs about Cr550 per 16m^2 unit. So 2.5x4xPi/2 15.7m^2 frontal area, x 4m long, 62.8m^3; 4.45 Td...

I'd say round up, and call it Cr150/Td + LS. Stateroom costs are KCr250, so, essentially, KCr250.6 per person

 

[Ulsyus]

That said, extensive cave complexes sounds like an excellent reason why the population has grown so uncommonly large. You're right about habitats being more expensive to establish than log cabins on Human-norm worlds. And I don't believe that the mining boom can have brought billions of people to Louzy. Jundreds of thousands, yes. Millions, possibly. Tens of millions I doubt. So most population expansion must have taken place afterwards.
Hans

You prompted me to search for what I was sure was a reference out there, and it's in the MgT SM supplement on p63-64. On p64 it refers to overpopulation in the sprawling cities constructed largely underground to maintain atmospheric integrity.

That said, the MgT doc still lists the world Size as 3, so maybe not a lot of thought went into that bit.

If I needed to house Billions of people on this world, I would look hard at inflatable structures. A large double shell dome held rigid by internal air pressure. I would select a transparent or translucent material to admit sunlight but block the excess UV that gets through the thin atmosphere. Some research suggests that an inflatable dome 1 km diameter is technologically achievable at TL 7+.

Good point - building something at a TL is easier than discovering and prototyping it at that TL in the first instance. There would be plenty of options for building materials available by the time a society reached a higher TL, some of which may be reproducable in a simpler form.

Given all of that, the picture I'm getting is of cities that exist largely underground but with substantial portions on the surface. There would be significant overcrowding, with a lot of plant used to maintain atmospheric conditions (gas mixes, humidity, etc) coming from off-planet and maybe of a higher tech. Lots of people would do what they could to get off-planet while governments and corporations do what they can to stabilise society and improve lifestyles. It would be worthwhile for corps to invest there, given that if they can increase the standard of living then there'd be a substantial consumer market for them to exploit and gain profits from.

How does that all sound?

 

[OjnoTheRed]

I've just come across this discussion - interesting stuff, definitely stealing these ideas for future reference.

There's another angle to consider. I'm not up with what published canon says, but the "Native Intelligent Life / Native Status" rules could kick in here to help out. The world has Pop 7+, Atm 2-9 and TL 1+ so it meets the criteria for "Intelligent life evolved on this world" (p. 436).

Assuming that humans have settled on this world, we could surmise they are a minority on the world needing special accommodation, the bulk of the population being life evolved to local conditions. This reduces logistical problems and provides another hook for the story - a new sophont species to develop.

 

[Ulsyus]

Holy cow: you're right! So what proportion of the billions on the planet are humaniti and what would be the natives?

(Sophont-maker, here I come!)

 

[OjnoTheRed]

I'd say whatever suits your campaign.

From what you've described, maybe the starport, startown and immediate surrounds have a relatively high proportion of human population with one of the technological solutions described here. That could be imported technology (the ideas not necessarily the material); as one gets further away from the starport, the less cosmopolitan the world becomes and the more the local sophonts dominate the scene. It's an Imperial world, so how the local sophonts fit into the Imperium is another important consideration.

This suggests perhaps millions or tens of millions of humans vs. billions of local sophonts. Plus other major races - Vargr in particular. What's the local sophonts relationship with Vargr? There would be some Aslan too from "behind the claw". What's their interest here?

 

[rancke]

There's another angle to consider. I'm not up with what published canon says, but the "Native Intelligent Life / Native Status" rules could kick in here to help out. The world has Pop 7+, Atm 2-9 and TL 1+ so it meets the criteria for "Intelligent life evolved on this world" (p. 436).

Wait, the rules says that ALL worlds that fit the criteria have native intelligent life?!? Not just have a chance of having intelligent life?

Published canon says that the number of minor non-human races in the Imperium is around 100, which works out as an average of five per sector. I'm not quite sure which of the many, many non-humans that have been placed in in the Spinward Marches that remain canonical, but the Marches are already way over the average. Nor do I know how many worlds fit the criteria you mention, but I strongly suspect that they would come to far more than the canonical number.

Assuming that humans have settled on this world, we could surmise they are a minority on the world needing special accommodation, the bulk of the population being life evolved to local conditions.

There are no non-humans listed for Louzy in the official UWPs. (Not ever the Vargr that one would surmise would be on most every inhabited world that close to the Vargr Extents).


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

The only writeup I've seen on the place is from the MgT SW book. There was no mention of sophonts there, but there's definitely a place for them. Given the economic concerns that exploited the planet for so long, I reckon they'd either be eliminated from the areas mined, or have adapted and integrated to an extent into local life. Your graduated population description fits my vision of the place nicely too.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Wait, the rules says that ALL worlds that fit the criteria have native intelligent life?!? Not just have a chance of having intelligent life?

Published canon says that the number of minor non-human races in the Imperium is around 100, which works out as an average of five per sector. I'm not quite sure which of the many, many non-humans that have been placed in in the Spinward Marches that remain canonical, but the Marches are already way over the average. Nor do I know how many worlds fit the criteria you mention, but I strongly suspect that they would come to far more than the canonical number.


There are no non-humans listed for Louzy in the official UWPs. (Not ever the Vargr that one would surmise would be on most every inhabited world that close to the Vargr Extents).


Hans

This is a question I've been wondering about myself - I attached a spreadsheet to this post that analyses the Spinward Marches for all planets that meet a Native Life status under the T5 criteria. Total came to 128 sophont species in the Spinward Marches alone.

That makes the T5 Traveller universe look very different to the OTU if, as the rules seem to imply we need to generate a Sophont species if the criteria are met (in a similar way to applying a trade classification).

I'm not sure if that was an intended effect of the rules; Referee fiat applies to all universes and campaigns, of course and MM can decide freely the OTU doesn't apply the rules that way (although this leads to the curious situation where the person ultimately responsible for the rules that shape the game doesn't end up using them).

The intent of my post here is to help out a fellow Referee apply their fiat.

 

[Ulsyus]

Maybe the point should be that while native life is possible on a planet such as Louzy or on any of the other 127 worlds in the Marches, native sophonts are not guaranteed on any of them. That could be any combination of factors that prevents this.

Okay, so there's still more than a billion inhabitants, the vast vast majority being Humaniti, maybe with some uplifted locals from an earlier period who help with work outside the arcologies.

 

[Timerover51]

Feeding billions of people on a small world with a very thin tainted atmosphere, unless the taint is carbon dioxide, it going to be quite interesting.

 

[rancke]

Feeding billions of people on a small world with a very thin tainted atmosphere, unless the taint is carbon dioxide, it going to be quite interesting.

No more of a problem (and possibly easier) than feeding the same number of people living in an asteroid belt. And we know that's perfectly possible. Carniculture and hydroponics are old SF tropes (and something that's being experimented with today -- the first lab-grown hamburger was made about a year ago).


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

I agree with Hans, feeding is not the technical issue. One of the things that struck me was the population: how big it was. How it got that high is something I thought worth exploring.

 

[rancke]

I agree with Hans, feeding is not the technical issue. One of the things that struck me was the population: how big it was. How it got that high is something I thought worth exploring.

Insofar as detailing a world to make it less generic is always worthwhile, I agree with you. In generic terms, however, I don't see any pressing need. It got so big in the same way that the population of Glisten got so big: The culture encouraged spending resources on expanding the available habitats. Building housing in inhospitable places is more expensive than building it in hospitable places, so you expect less incentive (it's more expensive) and less ability (we don't have the money) to expand on worlds like Louzy, but it's not prohibitively expensive, so there's no mystery. Louzians wanted more kids than the replacement rate, that's all there is to it (except, as I said, working out just why the Louzians wanted that is worthwhile).


Hans