Loose Ends: Tidying up a war's end

[jatay3]

What sort of conventions would there be for stopping post-hostilities actions? Obviously there will be some. But might there be accepted precedents for how to tidy up without leaving a chain of retaliations that restart a war.
Main force engagements can be prevented easier: they can simply order every starfleet to retreat one parsec from a nearby fleet. And ground forces can have similar arrangements. Forces that are not in contact simply stand down.
But in the meantime, every picket, marauder, etc has to get the word somehow. Perhaps there is a conventional "grace period" in which any military action is "charged" to the last war, and thus does not interfere with negotiations. And how does this sort of thing affect ransoms and prize law?

 

[Agemegos]

What sort of conventions would there be for stopping post-hostilities actions? Obviously there will be some. But might there be accepted precedents for how to tidy up without leaving a chain of retaliations that restart a war.
Main force engagements can be prevented easier: they can simply order every starfleet to retreat one parsec from a nearby fleet. And ground forces can have similar arrangements. Forces that are not in contact simply stand down.
But in the meantime, every picket, marauder, etc has to get the word somehow. Perhaps there is a conventional "grace period" in which any military action is "charged" to the last war, and thus does not interfere with negotiations. And how does this sort of thing affect ransoms and prize law?

You could do worse than look into the Treaty of Ghent and the end of the War of 1812. A British army attacked New Orleans (and was defeated by Andrew Jackson) between when the treaty was signed and when the news reached Louisiana.

And then there is the arrangement pertaining at the end of WWI, in which the armistice was agreed at 5 AM to come into effect at 11 AM, allowing six hours for the orders to reach all combatants.

 

[Captain Midnight]

But in the meantime, every picket, marauder, etc has to get the word somehow. Perhaps there is a conventional "grace period" in which any military action is "charged" to the last war, and thus does not interfere with negotiations. And how does this sort of thing affect ransoms and prize law?

It's going to be expected that there will be lag issues in getting word to deployed ships, especially if they're conducting independent operations. However, this is where you might see something vaguely reminiscent of medieval "heralds" -- both sides give permission for fleet couriers of the other side to range to any system that might be holding a ship that hasn't yet gotten the word, with the agreement that couriers broadcasting the news of an armistice are not to be hindered. Couriers violating the heraldic truce could be considered as having forfeited their safe-conduct, and would be treated as pirates (or "unlawful combatants", if you will).

Ransoms and prizes will depend on the judgment of the Admiralty Court, whose deliberations are probably open to all concerned, including lawyers from the former belligerent; they won't be popular, certainly, but they will be there to stand up for the rights of their citizens/subjects/constituents. The level of fairness expected in such a court is obviously up to each GM, though arguments like, "I don't care when the treaty was signed, I can take what I want from those disgusting bastards..." are unlikely to hold weight in any sort of legitimate court.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I seem to remember something in the Spinward Marches campaign about this, but nothing specific off the top of my head. Broadsword might have something about that, too - but probably only from the Merc side of things.

I always looked at the civilian aftermath part - people walking around with missing limbs (or plasma burns), ex-military types that can't get a job, etc...

 

[Plankowner]

...

I always looked at the civilian aftermath part - people walking around with missing limbs (or plasma burns), ex-military types that can't get a job, etc...

Emphasis mine.


Those are called PCs in many games!

 

[epicenter00]

I think it depends on who's fighting.

If it's a war between "local" nations on a balkanized world (with or without mercs) it's pretty obvious the TI would probably enforce and inform of ceasefires and so on as a third party.

Given the long communication lags for intersystem wars (as opposed to intrasystem), even a ceasefire might take weeks or months of time to be implemented. I would imagine field commanders are given sealed orders with "Open in event of hostilities" which have a list of challenge/authorization codes, which cover situations like ceasefires, armistices, and so on. Given the emphasis on responsibility and honor in the TI, it's entirely possible that certain radio phrases and so on are universally accepted by both sides to signal a ceasefire with the opponents honoring the codes as the TI does. Perhaps it's a signal along the lines of "Ceasefire in effect in Shionthy as of 1100-210. Contact local headquarters before initiating hostilities" which is transmitted through a system constantly.

While we modern honorless dogs (with apologies to dogs ) would only see the potential in abuse for such a system, it's clear that there are voluntary restraints that the sides practice in wars. In both of the Solomani Rim War and the various Frontier Wars (or the Julian War and so on), you don't read about Imperial fleets bombarding a planet for days with nuclear weapons then moving on - there's no list of proverbial "Starport X, with a string of zeroes near the end of the UWP" systems along the borders of the Consulate and the TI which suggests to me that both sides have ritualized their conflict to some degree. Tampering or misuse of such codes might be viewed with the same attitudes as people using atomics on population centers.

 

[Poppyseed45]

snipped

What he said. Seriously, in our modern world, there are certain conventions/rules/agreed upon bits of humanity that most folks follow. Hell, much of medieval warfare depended on this, up and until the Napoleonic Era. In fact, that's what made Napoleon such a bastard - he'd actually pick up his army and keep marching, even after a defeat, when everyone else thought he was supposed to go home, as per the agreed on social rules of war. But even HE still followed conventions like not sabering captured enemies and such not.

Assuming some sort of rule of law exists, then probably there are codes, orders, and ways of being that imply what should happen in these sorts of cases. Maybe jump-6 couriers with orders to reach certain fleets and such, transmitting certain code messages that tell ceasefire. Both the Soviet and American navies had these during the Cold War, since submarines often went on extended tours without contact. They'd surface now and then, and listen for orders, then keep following their procedures in absence of any.

 

[rancke]

I seem to remember something in the Spinward Marches campaign about this, but nothing specific off the top of my head.

The armistice was declared on 099-1110 to take effect on 120-1110. 21 days is enough time to get a courier 18 parsecs away (If you assume you won't be unlucky with jump durations). Not, IMO, enough to guarantee that everybody would get the word in time, but probably enough to inform most of the units involved.


Hans

 

[Vile]

It's unlikely that there would be anything as straightforward as a simple time limit.

In "reality" what would probably happen is interminable round of court cases to determine whether the ship/batallion/sniper/whatever knew, or could have been expected to know, or should have made an effort to find out, that the war was over before they committed the act which they are being tried for now.*

this sort of thing is likely to drag on for decades after the end of the war, and in itself is a very good reason for people not to do anything they shouldn't once they become aware that the war is over.

*Scope for an investigative adventure: It looks like the commander of the Halberd had not received word that the rebels on Raydrad (2933/Trin's Veil/Spinward Marches) had agreed to the terms of the armistice before levelling a military camp / refugee village of 2,000 inhabitants on standing orders. The players are charged to find out what happened to the stand-down order which he should have received an hour before the massacre. Was he ignorant? Is he a rogue and a war criminal? Or were strings being pulled at a higher level?

 

[sfchbryan]

You could do worse than look into the Treaty of Ghent and the end of the War of 1812. A British army attacked New Orleans (and was defeated by Andrew Jackson) between when the treaty was signed and when the news reached Louisiana.

And then there is the arrangement pertaining at the end of WWI, in which the armistice was agreed at 5 AM to come into effect at 11 AM, allowing six hours for the orders to reach all combatants.

It also gave literally thousands of soldiers the opportunity to fire the "last shot" of the Great War. In one of my books on WWI, they have pictures of artillery pieces with ropes that dozens of people would pull at once to fire the "last shot".

It would have sucked to have been killed or wounded in that last 6 hrs.

 

[Eamon]

Worse than that several American Divisions were given orders to continue an offensive even when the Armistice was agreed upon.

 

[BlackBat242]

Data, please.

 

[epicenter00]

Data, please.

While I'm not sure about the American Divisions part (it's been a while) I did read about that. Check out Joseph Persico's book 11th Month, 11th Day, 11th Hour: Armistice Day, 1918. There's a History Channel documentary based on it which is a little more accessible called "The Last Day of World War I."

Basically the observation was that Allied leaders sent about 11,000 men to their deaths on that day for various reasons. The one that sticks in my mind is some Allied commander who captured a town so he could have a bath.

 

[jappel]

A local history segment on the NPR station here in Baltimore has related the story of Henry Gunther of Baltimore several times; he's one of two possible candidates for the "last Allied Solider Killed". He was killed during an advance on the city of Metz and died at either 11:00 or 11:01. (The other candidate is a British soldier who died at 10:59.)

I found the following account of General Pershing's testimony about whether he'd ordered an attack on the last day here:

http://www.historynet.com/world-war-i-wasted-lives-on-armistice-day.htm

Given that it was testimony before Congress, confirming his statements should be pretty easy.

 

[BlackBat242]

Linky no workee.

All that appears on the screen is this:

/world-war-i-wasted-lives-on-armistice-day.htm

 

[jatay3]

It's going to be expected that there will be lag issues in getting word to deployed ships, especially if they're conducting independent operations. However, this is where you might see something vaguely reminiscent of medieval "heralds" -- both sides give permission for fleet couriers of the other side to range to any system that might be holding a ship that hasn't yet gotten the word, with the agreement that couriers broadcasting the news of an armistice are not to be hindered. Couriers violating the heraldic truce could be considered as having forfeited their safe-conduct, and would be treated as pirates (or "unlawful combatants", if you will).

Ransoms and prizes will depend on the judgment of the Admiralty Court, whose deliberations are probably open to all concerned, including lawyers from the former belligerent; they won't be popular, certainly, but they will be there to stand up for the rights of their citizens/subjects/constituents. The level of fairness expected in such a court is obviously up to each GM, though arguments like, "I don't care when the treaty was signed, I can take what I want from those disgusting bastards..." are unlikely to hold weight in any sort of legitimate court.

IMTU I invented a company called Ares Corporation, which is a legal and brokerage specializing in such things.

 

[boomslang]

IMTU I invented a company called Ares Corporation, which is a legal and brokerage specializing in such things.

IMTU, Mail couriers enjoy pretty much the same rights of passage (so long as they do not directly support belligerents by carrying as cargo arms and/or other warmaking materiel, or worse yet engage in privateering). Many fleet dispatches are carried as routine -- well-encrypted, of course -- personal mail addressed nondescriptly...

  To: Mister Horatio Hornblower
      c/o General Delivery
      Efate, Spinward Marches

and so on...

 

[ThunderChilde]

The only time this came up in a game, a joint commision was formed to review violations that occured after the 25 day communication period.

How this worked in practice was the armistice starts here now, track the propagation of the announcement and violations behind the shockwave of the announcements were chargable if found to be in violation of the amistance. Local advisement allowed 6 hours for the cease fire to be acknowleged and settled by local active combatants. 25 days and 6 hours allowed all but the most isolated or deep missions to be reached and hostilities to end.

Then the final assessments based on the current conditions of the cease fire were judged by a nuetral Party, and no, the Hivers weren't allowed anywhere near the process. It was handled by a panel of B'waps, all neat and tidy when they got done.

 

[BlackBat242]

Violators were "turned into the Newts"?

 

[ThunderChilde]

uh-huh, it was intended to discourage any shenannigans, who wants to be at the mercy of a bunch of Bwaps? :rofl:

:devil:Might be years just geting the paperwork straightened out, before a judgement could begin, all spent in a Bwap run prison. Sent some of the players and npcs into a tizzy about being very careful and above board, full stop and slight pull back, offers of aid to the enemies wounded etc.:devil:

Oddly there were no serious violations, only those from cut off or deep mission and they were settled by the Joint Commision. The B'waps were sorta disappointed, the opportunity to establish a new best practices framework and administrative proceedures were seen as wasted.:rofl:

There are still the occasional jokes made about this after more than 20 years