Loophole in Rogue

[Daddicus]

My players may have found a large loophole in the Rogue profession. If they happen to have any characteristic that's 11 or higher, they can only fail on a 12. But, the Rogue profession is very lucrative.

The downside is supposed to be jail time, but I had a character get generated with several million credits and 7 ship shares, due to having had a 10 in education (which he increased to 11 after his first term). He never went to prison. In fact, it got to the point where he could choose Brave with impunity.

Also, once a Rogue gets rolling, if s/he is lucky in the first couple of terms, then the Mod gets high enough that even average characteristic values start to become difficult to fail.

I'm wondering if we don't need a cap on the useable amounts of characteristics, at least for rogues. The other professions have to switch around, but the rogue can choose his best stat and stick with it.

Comments?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Yeppers, Timmii Bait for sure.

My players may have found a large loophole in the Rogue profession. If they happen to have any characteristic that's 11 or higher, they can only fail on a 12. But, the Rogue profession is very lucrative.

The downside is supposed to be jail time, but I had a character get generated with several million credits and 7 ship shares, due to having had a 10 in education (which he increased to 11 after his first term). He never went to prison. In fact, it got to the point where he could choose Brave with impunity.

Also, once a Rogue gets rolling, if s/he is lucky in the first couple of terms, then the Mod gets high enough that even average characteristic values start to become difficult to fail.

I'm wondering if we don't need a cap on the useable amounts of characteristics, at least for rogues. The other professions have to switch around, but the rogue can choose his best stat and stick with it.

Comments?

Yeah, that came up in both Cirque and on own time. It is one hell of loop hole, drive a damned battecruiser through it.

Posted this in the Errata Threads yet? If not you might want to.

 

[robject]

I found that one, too. It's quite exciting generating a character who J U S T C A N ' T F A I L at crime.

I enjoyed generating a Rogue. With a CC of 12, the character ended up with six million credits and fifteen ship shares. Since the character was originally a Spacer, and had been knighted, those shares could secure a Corvette and a Yacht, with shares left over to own a third, 225t ship.

yes, its a quirk for the very well endowed

Seems more like a cheat, doesn't it?

 

[jcrocker]

Maybe it's the first step towards the Traveller - Supers Crossover.

It's a little less impressive when it's a high-performance grav belt and FGMP instead of natural flying and heat vision, but if super criminals abound, it's time for the Imperial Justice League!

 

[DickNervous]

Yeah, I pointed out that issue back in March as part of this thread about questions I had regarding character creation. It was my firs time creating a T5 character so I wasn't sure I was doing it right.

I even started a new thread to discuss some ideas for adjusting it, though it didn't get much feedback at the time.

 

[patolixo]

I have been tempted to house-rule this and to switch the Mods for DMs, making it harder for a rogue to succeed and continue the more terms he has. Would that break stuff? I think it makes some sense, as in a criminal would find it harder to evade punishment the more successful and notorious he is.

 

[robject]

I have been tempted to house-rule this and to switch the Mods for DMs, making it harder for a rogue to succeed and continue the more terms he has. Would that break stuff?

I don't think it would break anything. And it's reasonable that the longer a Rogue maintains his schemes, the more likely he is to fail.

 

[Daddicus]

I came up with three ideas to help, all house rules.

First, cap the actual modified target at 10. Still fair odds of success, but jail time is a real possibility. Note that this isn't changing the CC. It's just saying you fail on an 11 or 12. This would be purely a game mechanic; I can't think of a way to justify it in-universe.

Second, instead of giving a bonus for each term, make it a penalty. It's a Mod -1 to the CC target. If implemented along with my first idea, it won't have any effect until the Mod reduces the target below 10. This can be justified by "the more times a criminal commits a crime, the more the odds of capture rise."

Third, make brave and cautious max out at target=10, per #1 above. This is another game mechanic, but I think it could apply to more than just rogues. The whole brave/cautious things would change for very high characteristics (11 & 12).

So, George Onesy has Dex 11. For CC purposes, the target is 10 or less, even though the actual CC is higher.

George elects to be brave, reducing the target to 9. However, since the effective target was 10, this only counts as bravery 1, so he only gets to add 1 to the reward roll.

On his second term, apply Mod -1 to the CC. His target will still be 10.

His cousin Joe Twofer starts off with the same Dex 11 (must be good genes). His situation is the same, except for his skill choices, 3 time he rolls a 2 on the leftmost table of skills, giving him Dex 14.

As a result, bravery is useless to him until his 3rd term, when the -terms Mod brings the CC down to earth again (11).

 

[robject]

Daddicus, please encapsulate those house rules in the "T5 Errata" thread as a suggestion.

 

[Daddicus]

I will, but let's get a little more feedback. I can easily see how, even if everybody agreed they were good, there might be changes (like, is "10" the magic number?)

Let's give it until the weekend.

 

[Bloo]

Did the 5.09 update give the Rogue any combat skills?

 

[Daddicus]

Looks like there's one chance at "Fighter" under one column.

 

[Tim Soholt]

Actually, a blanket "11 or 12 always fails" for character creation might not be a bad idea. It's *really* easy to break character generation with good characteristic rolls.

 

[robject]

Actually, a blanket "11 or 12 always fails" for character creation might not be a bad idea. It's *really* easy to break character generation with good characteristic rolls.

It's worth suggesting in the errata thread.

 

[Bloo]

May be of interest: homebrew alternate T5 Rogue.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Back once again with the ill behavior.

Maybe it's the first step towards the Traveller - Supers Crossover.

It's a little less impressive when it's a high-performance grav belt and FGMP instead of natural flying and heat vision, but if super criminals abound, it's time for the Imperial Justice League!

No, sir that would this..The Imperial Sperheroes Corps. :devil:

I don't think it would break anything. And it's reasonable that the longer a Rogue maintains his schemes, the more likely he is to fail.

Maybe not, seem to recall the Stainless Steel Rat went on quiet the success binge there. So, perhaps it is intended to be extra cheesy.

I came up with three ideas to help, all house rules.

First, cap the actual modified target at 10. Still fair odds of success, but jail time is a real possibility. Note that this isn't changing the CC. It's just saying you fail on an 11 or 12. This would be purely a game mechanic; I can't think of a way to justify it in-universe.

Second, instead of giving a bonus for each term, make it a penalty. It's a Mod -1 to the CC target. If implemented along with my first idea, it won't have any effect until the Mod reduces the target below 10. This can be justified by "the more times a criminal commits a crime, the more the odds of capture rise."

Third, make brave and cautious max out at target=10, per #1 above. This is another game mechanic, but I think it could apply to more than just rogues. The whole brave/cautious things would change for very high characteristics (11 & 12).

So, George Onesy has Dex 11. For CC purposes, the target is 10 or less, even though the actual CC is higher.

George elects to be brave, reducing the target to 9. However, since the effective target was 10, this only counts as bravery 1, so he only gets to add 1 to the reward roll.

On his second term, apply Mod -1 to the CC. His target will still be 10.

His cousin Joe Twofer starts off with the same Dex 11 (must be good genes). His situation is the same, except for his skill choices, 3 time he rolls a 2 on the leftmost table of skills, giving him Dex 14.

As a result, bravery is useless to him until his 3rd term, when the -terms Mod brings the CC down to earth again (11).

I just tend to go with 12 is Auto-Fail, it is easier to deal with. But also, I come from a long line of mean GMs. Okay, it is a short line, but very mean.

 

[rancke]

I don't think it would break anything. And it's reasonable that the longer a Rogue maintains his schemes, the more likely he is to fail.

Some rogues have to win every time or there won't be a next time. And there are plenty of them around in literature. Simon Templar, Modesty Blaise, Kirth Gersen, Vlad Taltos. Even perennially unlucky John Dortmunder can't afford to be too unlucky (he's a two-time loser -- the next time he's caught he'll get life).


Hans

 

[robject]

Some rogues have to win every time or there won't be a next time. And there are plenty of them around in literature. Simon Templar, Modesty Blaise, Kirth Gersen, Vlad Taltos. Even perennially unlucky John Dortmunder can't afford to be too unlucky (he's a two-time loser -- the next time he's caught he'll get life).

Hans

Dumarest too.

Of course character gen in Traveller should balance "time to get out" with "win more stuff".

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Yikes.

Some rogues have to win every time or there won't be a next time. And there are plenty of them around in literature. Simon Templar, Modesty Blaise, Kirth Gersen, Vlad Taltos. Even perennially unlucky John Dortmunder can't afford to be too unlucky (he's a two-time loser -- the next time he's caught he'll get life).


Hans

I know of The Saint, heard of Ms. Blaise here and there but don't have her particulars, the Kirth person is a complete unknown, but "Whiskers" Taltos is no Rogue, he's an Agent. Sethra Lavode's to be exact...and maybe the Phoenix Orb too.

But actually an excellent point.

 

[rancke]

I know of The Saint, heard of Ms. Blaise here and there but don't have her particulars, the Kirth person is a complete unknown, but "Whiskers" Taltos is no Rogue, he's an Agent. Sethra Lavode's to be exact...and maybe the Phoenix Orb too.

Heh. Kirth Gersen is actually the only SF character in the list. He's the protagonist of Jack Vance's Demon Princes pentalogy.


Hans