Looking for info from dead traveller website
- Thread starter sebsmith
- Start date
Sebsmith,
The "Guatney" referred to is Leo Guatney, a fellow who is slightly notorious within the Hobby.
Among his many "claims" to fame are the contentions that the Rule of Man exceeded TL14 or 15 and that the Ziru Sirka had jump3. He kicked off one largest flamewars on the TML in the 1990's too. The last I saw or heard of him was at ct_starships several years ago. He was talking about pushing HG2's various construction and combat tables past TL16 (a common topic of his) and he also posted a link to a site where he was hosting an entire copy of HG2 in the html format.
The latter action, a clear violation of FFE's copyright which he "excused" by claiming he was a friend of Mr. Miller's, soon saw him bounced from ct_starships.
He authored a few deadtree JTAS articles and has a few others hosted at Freelance Traveller. I don't know whether he's active in the Hobboy anymore or not.
Given his history, I'd guess the "statistical analysis" the memo mentions is neither "statistical" or an "analysis" in any true meaning of either word and are meant to "prove" some contention of his regarding the OTU. While his materials are interesting from personal or ATU standpoints, he routinely insists they somehow canonical.
Regards,
Bill
The "Guatney" referred to is Leo Guatney, a fellow who is slightly notorious within the Hobby.
Among his many "claims" to fame are the contentions that the Rule of Man exceeded TL14 or 15 and that the Ziru Sirka had jump3. He kicked off one largest flamewars on the TML in the 1990's too. The last I saw or heard of him was at ct_starships several years ago. He was talking about pushing HG2's various construction and combat tables past TL16 (a common topic of his) and he also posted a link to a site where he was hosting an entire copy of HG2 in the html format.
The latter action, a clear violation of FFE's copyright which he "excused" by claiming he was a friend of Mr. Miller's, soon saw him bounced from ct_starships.
He authored a few deadtree JTAS articles and has a few others hosted at Freelance Traveller. I don't know whether he's active in the Hobboy anymore or not.
Given his history, I'd guess the "statistical analysis" the memo mentions is neither "statistical" or an "analysis" in any true meaning of either word and are meant to "prove" some contention of his regarding the OTU. While his materials are interesting from personal or ATU standpoints, he routinely insists they somehow canonical.
Regards,
Bill
Thanks, but I was more referring to the report itself, which is missing. I'm pretty sure at one point there was an article there about the extent of the Ziru Sirka which I found interesting. However, as you can see, it's now missing and I was wondering if anybody had saved it.
Of course learning more about the history of the online community of Traveller is interesting too, since I came into the hobby in a funky way.
Of course learning more about the history of the online community of Traveller is interesting too, since I came into the hobby in a funky way.
He never produced the report as a report. What's missing from that page is a large gif image, a dot map of charted space containing the stars he thought were part of the first Imperium. All 15,000+ of them. Mostly it extended much further coreward into now what is the Vargr Extents at least on the trailing half of the Extents.
If you view the report page linked above and do a view page source, there is more information which has been commented out for some reason or another. You are looking for an image called "imperium.gif", which isn't helpful for a google image search (too many star wars hits).
I'll look to see if I have a copy of the map, it may be on my other computer. But don't hold out hope. Some one else may have kept a copy as well.
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G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
There is an old TML discussion (I think) about pre-Ziru Sirka settlement patterns that turns up in Google from time to time. Perhaps you're thinking of that? I remember them discussing how much easier it is for low-jump vessels to make their way up the Mendan Main than pretty much anywhere else in the Traveller Universe.
And since one can use the Mendan Main to travel entirely by Jump-1 from the edge of Vland sector right up to the Gashikan system (and a few parsecs beyond), I'd say the point is essentially correct.
One of my current time-wasters in The Hobby (as Bill so eloquently put it) has been using the kernel of that "settlement pattern" idea to create historical atlas-type charts (a gazeteer, I suppose?) of the Early Traveller Universe, beginning from about -10,000 on. I'd never claim them as purely OTU documents; but they -- coupled with a few other canonical points -- do make a pretty strong case for a heavy Ziru Sirka presence in the sectors in question.
Starviking
SOC-13
If anyone wants that dot-map of the Imperial Mains then I can post it up.
Thoth-Amon
SOC-12
Please do. Thanks.
Starviking
SOC-13
Because the Vilani would be able to expand for quite a while even if the deep space jump theory was absolutely true?
Hans
Hans,
No.
The Vilani were able to explore nearly the entire region of that map with jump1 drives alone. Every time you see a change in color from one main to another, the Vilani crossed that gap with jump1. Every one of those gray regions between the colored mains were explored with jump1 too.
If GT:ISW's idiocy is to be believed - an idiocy concocted solely to explain lines of the map of a pre-Traveller wargame - there was a brown dwarf in each and every one of those gaps you see between the colored mains. There's a brown dwarf in each and every gap you see between gray dots too.
There was a brown dwarf every where the jump1 Vilani needed one across the entire First Imperium and beyond....
... EXCEPT between Sirius and Sol.
Brown dwarfs everywhere, except between Sirius and Sol, and all to explain away lines on a map belonging to a wargame that predates Traveller itself.
And it's not just the Vilani either. You can make similar maps for the Zhodani, Vargr, K'Kree, Hivers, and Aslan. There were brown dwarfs everywhere they needed to go too. Brown dwarfs are everywhere except between Sirius and Sol. Everywhere except that one gap. Everywhere.
That's special pleading, nothing more.
Regards,
Bill
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Or with STL. A two parsec gap can be crossed in, what, about a decade?
Or with huge asteroids move into a gap with maneuver drives. We don't know the minimum size of a 'gravity anchor'.
Or by jumping into the gap carrying an extra load of fuel, get displaced to somewhere in the vicinity, then using the second load to jump to a system within reach. A procedure that would work for a sufficiently motivated scout, merchant, or immigrant, but be useless for an invading fleet.
Hans
Hans,
And the pre-Ziru Sirka Vilani governments and corporations somehow operated with several of those 10-year communications gaps in place? Remember, they explored and traded across the entirety of what would become entire Ziru Sirka with jump1 and only conquered the same with jump2.
And neither side sought to do the same in the Sirius-Sol gap during nine wars over two centuries for a strategic advantage?
And that's substantially different from how deep space jumps are made already?
You can fashion whatever excuses you want but the truth of the matter is that GT:ISW screwed up. They felt they needed explain warp lines on a wargame map that predates Traveller so they roped in an optional rule from another wargame whose basic design predates Traveller as an excuse and invalidated decades in canon in the process.
Mass requirements for jump calculations are the third eye in the the forehead of what is otherwise an excellent book.
Regards,
Bill
Exactly. Explored, not conquered.
What's the problem with that?
Very different for an admiral who'd get his fleet spread across who knows how big a distance.
Not if I can fashion an excuse that works.
Hans
Hans,
Explored and engaged in trade. It was the inappropriate use of Vilani technology by sophonts with which they traded that sparked the conquest.
They're going to trade with a 10-year long communications delay every time you cross a gap? Look at that map again and add them up.
Opening another avenue of attack against an enemy you've been fighting for centuries isn't worth the effort? You're suggesting it's child's play for explorers and traders but the military doesn't somehow see the utility?
By your excuse they're only scattered when they jump into deep space. When they jump back out they all can aim for the same breakout out point in the terminal system though and jump for it at the same pre-arranged time.
And when you do be sure to let us know, okay?
Regards,
Bill
It could have been the way they first crossed the gaps to explore. Then, when they found out there was something worth trading for, they could have set up "stepping stones". We are, after all, talking about a period of many, many years. Still, I like my other suggestion better, so I'm not going to spend much effort to defend this one.
That would depend entirely on how big an effort was required, wouldn't it?
No, I'm not suggesting it is child's play. I'm suggesting it would be a very costly project, something that could only be undertaken by a young, vigorous, expanding empire covering many worlds and not being forced to strain every effort to defend itself against a major enemy. This was something the Vilani would have done thousands of years ago, back before they invented the jump-2 drive, not yesterday afternoon. The infrastructure to undertake such a project does not exist on either side, and if either side had had the resources to build that number of asteroid tugs, it would have been much simpler to build warships with them and finish the war once and for all.
That would depend on how far they were scattered and in which direction, wouldn't it? As for the pre-arranged time, that might work if the admiral felt that a surprise attack with a quarter or a third of his forces missing were better than an attack with all of them. BTW, remind me, just what advantage is he going to get from crossing the gap?
I missed this one the first time around:
What's wrong with the Sirius-Sol Gap being the only one without a single brown dwarf in it? Say, for example, there's a 50% chance that each empty hex has a brown dwarf. What are the odds that the Vilani wouldn't be able to find a route between almost any two mains in Charted Space? Pretty low, right? But the odds that any specific gap wouldn't have one would be well within acceptable limits.Bill said:
Hans
Hans,
So now the excuse is that the Vilani and Terrans are stupid?
The Vilani did it all the time in their past and, despite writing everything down and going by the book, they somehow forgotten that chapter?
And the Terrans are too stupid to think of it on their own? Nine wars across two centuries and no one even thought that opening another avenue of attack into the Ziru Sirka was a good idea? They should just keep slamming up the same chain of stars over and over again until they break through?
That's nothing more than special pleading.
That's very different from the excuse you wrote earlier. This is what I was responding to: Or by jumping into the gap carrying an extra load of fuel, get displaced to somewhere in the vicinity, then using the second load to jump to a system within reach.
A fleet jump into deep space and is scattered. The vessels refuel from stores aboard - just as Terran ships were said to do before GT:ISW - and then jump to their destination. The ships wouldn't be scattered during the second leg of the voyage, they'd all plot the same exit point in the target system, initiate jump at the same time, and arrive scattered across the usual temporal window.
Google "indirect approach".
It wasn't a 50% chance, the dwarfs were everywhere else the Vilani needed them to be. Look at that map again, we're talking about a chance of well under 1%. The dwarfs were everywhere everyone else needed them to be too, everywhere and every time everyone needed them except in the Sirius - Sol gap.
Bill
Um... no. The counter to your argument is that such a project was too expensive for the Terrans and the Vilani that they were fighting.
I'm at a loss to understand how you can possibly come up with the other interpretation of what I wrote.
The Vilani built a fleet of asteroid tugs, possibly several fleets, and created their stepping stones. Then they stopped expanding. Maybe they mothballed a fleet, maybe not. Then they invented jump-2. After that they definitely didn't maintain any asteroid tugs no more.
That's how discussions work, Bill. I throw out an idea, you come up with an objection, I modify the idea to account for the objection, etc. Just what is wrong with that?
What makes you think that a difficult to coordinate long drawn out attack on the most heavily defended system in the Terran Confederation, leaving the direct approach to your capital open to your enemy, would be considered a good idea?
You seem to have misunderstood my argument, but no matter. So what if they are everywhere they're needed but in the Sirius-Sol Gap. So what if there's only a thousand to one chance that a situation like that would occur. Thousand to one chances come out too. And if it really is a thousand to one chance, it's perfectly reasonable that brown dwarves would be found everywhere else they were needed.[*]
Hans
Hans,
They somehow mothball the tugs they needed to place stepping stones in 3 parsec gaps too? You know, the ones they crossed with jump2 drive?
So, once again, they're stupid, right?
Jump2 doesn't make all the gaps magically go away and part of the GT:ISW idiocy holds that the techniques for mass-less jumps won't be developed until the Aslan Border Wars as modeled in the Dark Nebula wargame. That means everyone everywhere is either avoiding gaps greater than their current jump drive ratings or placing planetoids in them with STL tugs until the technique is invented. That means Zho, Vargr, K'Kree, Hiver, Vilani, Sollie, and even Aslan. Everyone.
We've had this discussion for years now. You propose, I dispose, and you then come up with what are essentially the same proposals again. You can't excuse this away, there is no plausible reason for GT:ISW's mass requirement because it is both internally inconsistent and canonical train wreck.
I don't quite understand that sentence, but no matter.
GT:ISW problems actually began with GT:RoF. Before RoF, we knew about the Interstellar Wars but we knew little about their actual conduct. Pulver decided to write a more detailed history of the wars and made the huge mistake of using the map from Imperium rather than the actual sector map.
Yes, Imperium is canonical and, yes, it's map does generally match the region around Sol. There are different levels of canonicity however, such as jump torpedoes, and any wargame designer will tell you that when playability is concerned realism takes a back seat to reality.
What's more, Imperium predates Traveller. The design notes in the first edition don't mention Vland or the Vilani, only referring to an empire of 70 stars centered on Capella. Even worse, the same notes refer to the lines linking the systems on the map as transit lines in the manner consistent with the Alderson Drive from Mote in God's Eye. You can't find the word jump anywhere in the game.
The fact that GDW later kit-bashed Imperium into something that more resembled Traveller is moot because the MAP, the LINES on it, and the NON-JUMP FTL system used in the are not actually Traveller.
So, Pulver wrote up a history of the war using premises that were fundamentally flawed. Before [RoF we could have said that both Terran and Vilani moved or attacked across the Sirius Gap because there was nothing that said otherwise. in RoF, we are specifically told no attacks took place but that statement rests solely on Pulver's mistaken use of a wargame that predates Traveller and doesn't use jump drive.
When GT:ISW was written, the fundamentally flawed RoF history was used and the ISW authors then compounded the problem by "explaining" why no one had moved across the Gap. Pulver hadn't bothered to explain why in RoF, but such an explanation was needed in a book that dealt solely with the wars. An optional rule from Dark Nebula was dredged up, but Dark Nebula uses the Imperium game engine and, once again, that engine predates Traveller.
So, we've got a flawed excuse trying to explain away a flawed history culminating in a canonical train wreck.
And you're misunderstanding mine. This isn't just about the Sirius - Sol Gap.
It's special pleading, nothing more. Thousand to one chance or million to one chance, no matter it nothing but special pleading.
The dwarfs are everywhere everyone from Zhos to Hivers needed them to be except between Sirius and Sol. GT:ISW flatly states that no one could do deep space jumps until the Aslan Border War period. No one. Everyone was either avoiding gaps or towing planetoids into them, despite no previous mentions in canon of either thing occurring. The K'Kree expanded and even crossed the Lesser Rift without being able to do it. The Hivers expanded and even fought a war with the K'Kree without being able to do it. The Loeskalth flew their generation ship out to the Far Frontiers without being able to do it. The Vargr expanded around Windhorn without being abe to do it. The Zhodani somehow launched their core expeditions without being able to do it. The Aslan even somehow crossed the Great Rift and surveyed the Jump5 Route without being able to do it.
And we're supposed to believe that all of them did all of that and much much more without deep space jumps because no one in all those thousands of years had developed the technique until the Aslan Border Wars. Yeah, right. Pull the other one.
And why do we need a borwn dwarf missing between Sirius and Sol anyway? Why only because Pulver screwed up when he used the map from Imperium when writing his history of the Interstellar Wars. It's a case of one meta-game screw up "fixing" another meta-game screw up and you can't fashion an in-game excuse for that no matter how hard you spin.
Regards,
Bill
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