Looking for a T5 Review.

[aramis]

I suspect that by the time you get your book, we'll have opened the T5 public forum.

The T5 Public forum has been present for some time, Don.

 

[Shonner]

I really know nothing about T5. Is it still using the T4-ish task system? I hope not. That's one of those systems where the players always know the task number (skill + Stat, roll under with several D6....difficulty by the number of D6 thrown), and that's not a good thing for a story-telling

The players know the task number? How else are they going to know what to roll for and be successful at it? Is there a hidden Traveller dice mechanic that is good for storytelling?

 

[Supplement Four]

The players know the task number? How else are they going to know what to roll for and be successful at it? Is there a hidden Traveller dice mechanic that is good for storytelling?

With most RPG systems, the target number can be hidden. I'll use d20 as an example. In D&D 3.5, a player swings a sword at an enemy. He rolls a d20 and adds his modifiers to get a total.

He has no idea of whether he landed a blow or not.

As the GM, I know the foe's Armor Class--the target number. And, when I see that the player's character hit, I might describe it like this: "You can feel your heartbeat beating in your temples. Sweat rolls down your face. You raise your blade, step forward with a lunge, and the tip of your sword slices into the hard boiled leather of your foe's armor. It takes a quick, hard, tug, and your weapon is free. As you pull, you can see red trailing down the man's side."

That's dramatic. That draws a player into the moment. He's there, living through that fight.

From experience, I've found that if a player knows the target number (the AC, in the example) and can automatically know the success of his throw, then he tends to move on mentally and not "live" in the dramatic action as deeply. He's not listening as intently to my description because he already knows how it's going to end.

Playing that way, with the player automatically knowing the outcome of throws, removes a lot of drama that can be had from the game.




With the T4 task system, where difficulty is determined by the number of dice thrown, and the target is determined by adding Skill + Stat, there is no way for the GM to hide anything--not the difficulty or the target. Not unless the GM does something unorthodox and ungainly like rolling the task for the player (players like to roll their own dice) or not telling the player what he's rolling against (now the GM has to do all the work and keep track of all PC's skills and stats).

Under T4, it's just impossible to put the drama into the game like I described above.

Some people are OK with it. I definitely prefer it where target numbers are secret. That's a better game design, imo.

 

[Supplement Four]

Is there a hidden Traveller dice mechanic that is good for storytelling?

Other versions of Traveller?

Certainly with T20.

With CT, the target is known for combat (8+), but sometimes that, too, can be disguised with modifiers (cover/concealment/battlefield conditions).

And, with CT, the GM decides what to roll with all other tasks outside of combat, so, yeah, it's very easy to say, "Roll 2D and add your Medical skill. And, you can have a +1 modifier is EDU is 13+". A player would have no idea of his target.



Example: The players are exploring an ruin that they've estimated is millions of years old. They find what they think are devices that operate bio-mechanically. And, a PC is examining one long, stone table--or maybe it's a sink of some type--that is curious with these tough-skinned mushroom-like growths spread over the surface of the bowl.

The GM knows that this is an alien medical examining table. The mushrooms attach to the skin and suck out blood samples for diagnostics. But, the player has no idea.

In CT, the GM decides that this is a 10+ throw and tells the player, "Roll 2D, and recieve a +1 DM if EDU 13+." The GM knows that the character has skill of Medic-2, so he lowers the target to 8+ without giving the player any hint that this is, indeed, a Medical based throw.

It's really hard to do that with the T4 system. The player has to know difficulty because of the dice he throws.

I suppose you could just tell the player to roll dice and not tell him the target, but this seems ungainly and awkward when the player is used to knowing which Stat + Skill combination to use.



EDIT: Under the CT method, what has the GM told the player? Nothing. The player is used to throwing 2D for tasks, no matter what that task is, and it's logical to use a EDU modifier when trying to figure something out, like the alien diagnostic bed. The GM easily gives the PC the benefit of his Medic skill by lowering the target, unknown to the player.

With the T4 method, the player gets a lot of information (that the GM doesn't want him to have, in this example) just from the task. He knows the difficulty by the number of dice he's throwing ("It's hard to figure out what that is!"), and the task gives the player a meta-game hint at what the alien device does (because the player is throwing EDU + Medic or less).

See, the T4 task system is really inferior in this regard.



2nd EDIT: The good news is that, no matter the game system, the GM can always roll behind the screen for NPCs, keeping everything about the NPC stats secret, describing vividly the NPC's actions, and keeping the drama high. It's the players' rolls that suffer with the T4 system.

 

[Dragoner]

...and the target is determined by adding Skill + Stat...

There is more to it than this, not only variable dice, but Armor Value as well.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*sigh*

Why does everyone assume just because I have some idea of how I will fare that I am not invested and that drama is lacking?

First, let's get back to your D&D example. Maybe in your crowd they don't work the numbers, but in our group we often have the badguy's AC and protections figured out by the first third or half of the battle. Not because the DM told us, but because we know what should hitting with specific numbers. Not much drama there either by your thoughts, yet with that having random results (the roll) the drama is there.

Drama has not a damned thing to with mechanics and folks who think they do are mistaken. Drama is on the Ref, not the Rules.

As Marc (unless I am misrembering) said in a post in the Private forum, knowing your chance at success is actually keeping in real life, which I agree with. In real life I do know my chances when under taking a task.

So, maybe it is just me, but I don't get this idea that open Target Numbers somehow defeats the ability to create drama. For me the drama was in those scary few seconds while I wait to see what number comes up, the being a bloody, close to or actually dying mess. And a good description by the GM/Ref of the resulting actions.

But then, as with many human things I could just be the weird one.

Laterness,
Craig.

 

[lordmalachdrim]

Not unless the GM does something unorthodox and ungainly like rolling the task for the player (players like to roll their own dice) or not telling the player what he's rolling against (now the GM has to do all the work and keep track of all PC's skills and stats).

If the task is something the player would not know if it was a success then I say why not let the gm roll it. Perception/Notice checks in most systems is a good example of a roll I feel the GM should roll. This adds uncertainty to the game. You don't know if something was there and if you hear the dice being rolled you don't know why. One reason our GM will pick up dice and randomly roll them during the game.

And if you can't trust your GM enough to make those rolls for you then you are playing with the wrong GM.

 

[HG_B]

In real life I do know my chances when under taking a task.

Really? So, if you encountered a mugger in an alley you know your numeric chances of taking him out and his numeric chances of hitting you?

Please elaborate and illuminate.

 

[Dagrill]

Hi,

since the mugger has surprise I would gues they have a free attack and take me out so 0% chance of success, also likely to be outnumbered, but this is the UK, in the USA I suppose it's how quickly you can draw your gun and blow the mugger away? Or do they just shoot first and see what they can get from the body?

Regards

David

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

That depends.

Really? So, if you encountered a mugger in an alley you know your numeric chances of taking him out and his numeric chances of hitting you?

Please elaborate and illuminate.

Well, HG_B, in a word yes. Nil and 90%. I fight like crap, okay, I don't fight so mugger has always won. Then again, I only play Adventurers.

Now, if I have a handgun, well, then my odds go up to maybe 40% accounting for the fact that I am waaaay out of practice and have never done practical/tactical training which accounts for my realistic, if crappy chances of hitting.

So, yeah, smart ass, I do know my chances. :devil: Funny thing when it comes to figuring your chances you too have a good idea of your chance of success. If you don't there is something wrong with your upbringing. I mean I figured out the basics of figuring my chances of succeeding in tasks long before I even knew what probabilities were.

lordmalachdrim, as for trusting the GM/Ref with my PC's rolls, it is not even about trust, it is about my controlling my character's destiny for good or ill. I make the rolls, hell you don't have to tell me why I am rolling dice, you could even just have me roll so you can play power games, but they are my rolls to make. Besides if you let me roll my own rolls there is no way I can blame you when the rolls hose me. If you roll for me, now I feel robbed and will, being mostly human bear some mild animosity about the matter.

Again, I don't claim to represent all gamers, just me.

Laterness,
Craig.

 

[HG_B]

So, yeah, smart ass, I do know my chances. :devil:

No, you don't. You used no scientifically sound process to determine them.

So, your original assertion was false. And thus, your point vis-a-vis the gaming situation holds no water.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Not to start a flame war, he said brandishing his petrol and flares.

No, you don't. You used no scientifically sound process to determine them.

So, your original assertion was false. And thus, your point vis-a-vis the gaming situation holds no water.

What? They took the use of empirical experience and study out of the scientific method. Because I used empirical evidence of having been mugged and beat up a few times in my life, so if empirical data doesn't count, what the hell does? Not rolling dice on a table, since that is entirely made up stuff.

So, just to get this straight, if I can't pull up tables with die rolls then my experience in real life has no bearing on faking real life?

Can I get some of your drugs? I mean, they seem to be way better at altering reality than the ones I have taken.

I have been holding my tongue, but by the gods of space, I will just explain to the "cops" that I was provoked because now you are being intentional ignorant or possibly worse are upset that Marc took all your godly power and done gave it to players. Seriously, HG_B you are telling me you go through life with no concept of your chances of succeeding at a task? Or do you just want different rules for players than you use everyday?

I am beginning to think it is more the later more than anything else. I may be wrong in which case I will sign my ticket and apologize, but really you are coming off like someone whose power is being threatened and not a neutral arbitrator that a Referee should be.

 

[Supplement Four]

There is more to it than this, not only variable dice, but Armor Value as well.

I'm glad to hear that. I'm eager to dig into the book once I've received it. Hopefully, I'll find a way to keep drama high with the tweaks that have been made to the base T4 system.

Why does everyone assume just because I have some idea of how I will fare that I am not invested and that drama is lacking?

Not all the time, of course. We're talking broadly, here. On average.

From experience, I know that players tend to more into the drama of the game if targets are unknown. But, then again, I'm not the type of GM that just says, "OK. You hit. Roll damage. Yeah. It's the NPC's turn. He missed. Your turn again."

I don't do that. I try to describe a rich, interesting world and put my players in the moment with their characters.

First, let's get back to your D&D example. Maybe in your crowd they don't work the numbers, but in our group we often have the badguy's AC and protections figured out by the first third or half of the battle. Not because the DM told us, but because we know what should hitting with specific numbers.

Sure. At a third or half the battle. There's a lot of drama there, and the drama in the beginning is the most important.

With the T4 system, you get absolutely no drama (in the way in which we are speaking).

Drama has not a damned thing to with mechanics and folks who think they do are mistaken. Drama is on the Ref, not the Rules.

The Ref is certainly a key factor (see above with the boring you-go, I-go), but you're mistaken if you think drama has nothing to do with mechanics.

Example: In 3.5 D&D - You've got one hit point left, and the GM is about to roll the goblin's damage on you...

Example: In CT - The entire ship shakes as you walk along the narrow catwalk. Roll 3D for DEX or less, or your character falls off the walk, down three decks, onto the engineering machinery....

Lots of drama and anticipation on those throws.

Here's a Real Life example from one of my CT games: The PCs were in a bar. Long story short, a MegaCorp was after them for blah-blah reasons, and assassins were looking for them. The PCs thought they had eluded the bad guys until all hell broke loose when they burst into the bar, full auto guns a-blazin'.

One of the PCs, Frank Forne, ran and ducked and zig-zagged past running patrons and upturned tables until he was able to jump over the bar. None of the PCs had weapons on them, and the mercs were chewing the place up, blowing away innocents that got in the way, searching through the chaos for Frank and the other PCs.

Frank's player had a moment of inspiration. "I'm in a bar, right? Bars usually have shotguns under the bar, don't they?"

I love player moments like this.

"I dunno," I said, "the law level is pretty high. But let's let the dice decide." I rolled higher die with him. There was a lot of anticipation on this die-vs-die throw. Here's your drama on the mechanics.

The player won. There WAS a shotgun somewhere under that bar.

I had already sketeched out the bar, and we knew where Frank was position. I divided the bar into six sections, starting with position 1 where Frank was crouching. "I'm going to roll a d6," I said, "and that number will indicate which part of the bar includes the shotgun."

Again, lots of anticpation on this roll. The players were glued to it.

The die left my hand, spun across the table...and landed on...ONE!

What a cool moment. Drama through mechanics.

"Frank," I said, "you just jumped over that bar. And, you look up, and...clipped right in front of your eyes is a gift from the gods. A shotgun."

It was a cool moment, indeed, in the game. Frank stood up and started blasting him some MegaCorp mercs. And, he became the hero of the night's game sessions because he was able to save everyone's life by covering them as they ran out. He kept the mercs at bay as the other PCs ran to saftey.

All because of....a great player idea and two die rolls.

As Marc (unless I am misrembering) said in a post in the Private forum, knowing your chance at success is actually keeping in real life, which I agree with. In real life I do know my chances when under taking a task.

That can definitely be argued.

Would you know your chance of figuring out a long stone shallow bowl with mushroom-like growths sprouting out of it? Could you possibly know your chance of figuring that out when you have no real clue that it's an alien biomechanical diagnostics bed that is thousands of years old?

And, your ability to know your chance at what you attempt aside, the real point is about drama in the game.

So, maybe it is just me, but I don't get this idea that open Target Numbers somehow defeats the ability to create drama.

I'm not sure how more clear I can make it, given the examples above.

Maybe it's just a matter of play style.

If the task is something the player would not know if it was a success then I say why not let the gm roll it.

I thought of this. I definitely roll some checks for players, occassionally. A stealth check, let's say, when the player shouldn't know if he's been heard or not.

But, let's face it. Players like rolling their own dice. And, with a system like T4, the GM would be rolling for the players more than the players roll for themselves.

It's too awkward.

 

[rancke]

As Marc (unless I am misrembering) said in a post in the Private forum, knowing your chance at success is actually keeping in real life, which I agree with. In real life I do know my chances when under taking a task.

Also, roleplaying games work best (in my experience) when they are roughly equal parts roleplaying and gaming. Gaming is all about manipulating the odds in your favor, and to do that you need to have some notion of the odds. And the two parts affect each other. Part of roleplaying an encounter is knowing when to hold and when to fold, as it were, and you can't do that if you don't have a decent knowledge of the odds.


Hans

 

[aramis]

S4's "suspense generation" only works with some players, and is really NOT happy when playing with strangers (who have no reason to trust) nor with a GM who has a huge drive to fudge things to fit his story. I've listened to people brag about setting difficulties AFTER the rolls by use of it, which I consider an abuse of trust. I've seen GM's ignore the rolls in order to literally give players an illusion of mattering.

I've seen as much suspense built mechanically by open difficulty rolls for unknown (but later revealed) reasons.

It boils down to trust - do the players trust the GM to actually have and stick to a difficulty when rolling blind? Does the GM trust the players to actually play the results of their rolls appropriately?

There's also the psychology of hidden difficulty - the temptation to fudge for a desired effect is magnified. And the hidden roll by the GM magnifies that even more. Temptation to railroad... a major problem with the hidden roll and hidden dice mechanic. It's partly why I much prefer my PBF to have a die-roller built in.

Now, there are times I still like the "roll and see how high a difficulty you hit"... but it's not for suspense building. It's for cases of how long can you do X, what quality of X did you make, how long will that repair last, etc?

That said, I still do not like the T5 core mechanic.
— Roll High is psychologically more intuitive.
— Dice by difficulty makes it much more onerous to do the "how hard did you succeed at"
— the TN system results in high attributes dominating play, because it rewards the wrong thing.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Busy, so short response.

Hey Spinward.

I am work so, I think this one will be short.

I guess the biggest issue here is to me, the rules are there merely to keep everything fair and above board. I dig the system don't get me wrong, but in the end I give a rip about mechanics. I do care about story. If the story is good then rolling dice isn't the thing keeping me there it is the GM's story. (Which I must admit from what I have seen on the boards you are very good at. Your story about the pirates whooping on a ship as the other went by saying they would be sure to let someone know what they saw, that was awesome.)

Now as to your goblin and me at HP 1, there is no drama in death, there is just making my new character. Now, at HP 10 there is some worry provided I actually dig the character.

Well, works calls so I will try and address any hanging issues later.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Ga-what?

/stuff I agree with pretty much/

It's partly why I much prefer my PBF to have a die-roller built in.

Now, there are times I still like the "roll and see how high a difficulty you hit"... but it's not for suspense building. It's for cases of how long can you do X, what quality of X did you make, how long will that repair last, etc?

That said, I still do not like the T5 core mechanic.
— Roll High is psychologically more intuitive.
— Dice by difficulty makes it much more onerous to do the "how hard did you succeed at"
— the TN system results in high attributes dominating play, because it rewards the wrong thing.

So, aramis, what's a PBF?

And where do you get this rolling high is intuitive? Seriously, as a pretty serious GURPS player for a while there, I can't agree with that. For me it matters which system I am playing in, but I am in the "roll low" is the way crowd. To me rolling high is inviting disaster, but then I am not a big D&D person. Not enough ray guns and starships for me.

Oh and I disagree with your statement about stats v. skills. I would way prefer skills over high stats. Then again, I ain't scared of Aging so I tend to high skill characters. Also, I and my characters don't like fighting (too much risk with no reward) and so again high stats don't really aid me. Honestly, high stats are best for soaking damage than skill use. Again, may just be my cowardly self.

 

[Supplement Four]

S4's "suspense generation" only works with some players, and is really NOT happy when playing with strangers (who have no reason to trust) nor with a GM who has a huge drive to fudge things to fit his story.

GM trust is important. I've had to earn it with some players in the past, especially those who have been abused (their perception) by GMs they've played with previously.

I try to keep things at a point where my players think it is fair. Is it really, truly fair? Never. A GM can't be totally fair. Not when he's got a story to tell.

But, I also don't like to do things like fudge numbers behind the screen. And, I think that's why my players trust me. They've seen me have some really big flubs that they know came from dice throws behind the screen. If I roll a mishap behind the screen, I won't ignore it. I will put it into play to the players' benefit.

I've listened to people brag about setting difficulties AFTER the rolls by use of it, which I consider an abuse of trust.

I agree. Not all GMs consider it an abuse of trust--not when they have the power to just plop down more enemies to hinder the players' path on a whim.

I understand both sides.

But, I think the players want to know that the rules enforced on their characters are also being enforced on the NPCs, even when the GM rolls in secret. I respect the players' point of view on this by always enforcing the rules the same on both sides of the screen.

I've seen GM's ignore the rolls in order to literally give players an illusion of mattering.

I don't do that, either. But, I will roll dice behidn the screen for no reason, just to keep players off-track. If I've got one NPC that I need to roll initiative for, I might roll four times, keeping the first throw as the NPC's initiative, and the last three as phantom rolls just to keep the players from knowing that there's only one bad guy they're facing. The extra rolls mean nothing and are performed only to keep players on the edge of thier seat (and to stave off Meta-Game information).

Now as to your goblin and me at HP 1, there is no drama in death, there is just making my new character.

My players tend to get real attached to their characters. Sure, they'll roll up another character if their current one dies, but they strive to keep the one they've got alive--because they've got a lot invested in the character emotionally.

What aids that type of emotional involvement? Dramatic play. The character becomes less an avatar in a game and more a mental version of themselves--because they've experienced a lot with the character by the way I describe the universe to them.

Which...again...is aided by mystery....

Not knowing the outcome of a dice toss is a huge tool in the GM's hands. Take away that mystery by allowing players to know outcomes instantly also removes a power tool from the GM's story-telling arsenal.

 

[aramis]

So, aramis, what's a PBF?

And where do you get this rolling high is intuitive? Seriously, as a pretty serious GURPS player for a while there, I can't agree with that. For me it matters which system I am playing in, but I am in the "roll low" is the way crowd. To me rolling high is inviting disaster, but then I am not a big D&D person. Not enough ray guns and starships for me.

PBF = Play By Forum.

Higher is better/more is better has been shown by educational and psychological journals to be a better score reporting method than lower is better. 7 or 8 studies that I've read. Plus 4-5 business journal articles have shown that high score modes are more effective than lowest penalty modes.

Also, having put 3d6 and a GURPS character sheet in front of a number of people, not gamers, without explanation, asking them to roll skill X, most (about 55%) rolled and added. My sample was not large enough to be valid, but....

I assigned a group of 28 6th graders the prompt "Which is better, 1 die + a score for a 7+, or 1d for that same score or less - why?" - ignoring three non-answers, the result was 90% roll high. The why was all over the place; 6th graders are not good at that aspect.

Edit:
Also, Comparisons are much easier with roll high.

 

[Supplement Four]

And where do you get this rolling high is intuitive?

I've got to go with Aramis on this one. Players do just naturally enjoy rolling a 6 more than they do a 1, even though the chance to hit each number is the same (on a single die throw).

6 is higher, the highest, more, better, bigger, more powerful....

Same thing with a d20. A 20 feels better than a 1.

Roll-low systems are a bit counter-intuitive.

I don't mind roll-low systems, but if I had my rathers, I'd rather rolling high be superior than rolling low.

Maybe it comes from most games--not just RPGs--having a high-is-better attitutde.

People default to rolling higher die, most of the time, not lower die. In Risk, it's better to roll high. In Yahtzee, higher totals are worth more than lower totals. In D&D 3.5, a natural 20 always hits. In D6 Star Wars R&E, a 6 on the Wild Die explodes, allowing you to add it and roll again and to keep rolling as long as you roll 6's.