For what it's worth (little imo) I was going through some notes and apparently Striker sets annual per capita income at:
[(TL minus 4) x Cr2000]
How to go from that to individual spending is the tricky bit.
Presume that's either Soc 7 or 8...
Long Term Subsistence
- Thread starter Icosahedron
- Start date
Presume that's either Soc 7 or 8...
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Sounds good. For an average TL11 world, that comes to about 1200/month, which is pretty darn close to what my formula throws out. 
It also provides variations for different TLs, and I can figure a straight multiplier for different soc levels on those different TL worlds.
It also provides variations for different TLs, and I can figure a straight multiplier for different soc levels on those different TL worlds.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
I've figured some refinements to this, see what you think.
Looking purely at board and lodging, I'm thinking:
Accommodation =60*(2^star)*FAM
Food =60*(2^star)
Where star is the star rating of the hotel (0-7) and
FAM (floor area multiplier) =if(star<4,1,(2^(star-4)))+referee discretionary
Star ratings:
0 - Dismal
1 - Backpacker (Dismal)
2 - Acceptable
3 - Good
4 - High (Excellent)
5 - Excellent
6 - Superb
7- Splendid
I can find the cost of food and shelter anywhere from a simple spreadsheet, and it ties in reasonably well with the expenditure formula.
I just wanted to stop the duke of wherever from living in palatial accommodation for 300Cr per month (LBB3).
Looking purely at board and lodging, I'm thinking:
Accommodation =60*(2^star)*FAM
Food =60*(2^star)
Where star is the star rating of the hotel (0-7) and
FAM (floor area multiplier) =if(star<4,1,(2^(star-4)))+referee discretionary
Star ratings:
0 - Dismal
1 - Backpacker (Dismal)
2 - Acceptable
3 - Good
4 - High (Excellent)
5 - Excellent
6 - Superb
7- Splendid
I can find the cost of food and shelter anywhere from a simple spreadsheet, and it ties in reasonably well with the expenditure formula.
I just wanted to stop the duke of wherever from living in palatial accommodation for 300Cr per month (LBB3).
*checking to see if Gadrin is still around*
Magnus *wonders*
Umm, as a Hereditary Knight (Soc A), and gaining a Barony through the Noble Service, plus something else from the Navy (+1 Soc) that I still am not sure what it is, but I am working as a second Knighthood...anyway, how the nine hells much do I have to pay in Upkeep in addition to keeping the rather expensive Yacht and Crew in Right and Proper Happy Working Order? I want to also where do I find out what Incomes and Assets I would/should have. I need to know how much I can sluff.*coughs in to fist* I mean file as Expenses that I can get the Ministry to take care of, as I am in the Service of HIM..still.
Anyway, winging it till the Player Stops appear in the Sensors (which are in active mode these days.)
Magnus *wonders*
Umm, as a Hereditary Knight (Soc A), and gaining a Barony through the Noble Service, plus something else from the Navy (+1 Soc) that I still am not sure what it is, but I am working as a second Knighthood...anyway, how the nine hells much do I have to pay in Upkeep in addition to keeping the rather expensive Yacht and Crew in Right and Proper Happy Working Order? I want to also where do I find out what Incomes and Assets I would/should have. I need to know how much I can sluff.*coughs in to fist* I mean file as Expenses that I can get the Ministry to take care of, as I am in the Service of HIM..still.
Anyway, winging it till the Player Stops appear in the Sensors (which are in active mode these days.)
Last edited:
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
That's a Baronet.
Dangnabbit, Boulton!
Magnus *looks exasperated*
Frak, every time I think I got this Noble thing down, you come along and make me look like an Idiot, umm, thanks a million.
I know your getting a piece of GURPS Traveller: Nobles, you are sooooo making me get a copy.
And so what would my sig look like then, mr smarty guy?
Magnus *looks exasperated*
Frak, every time I think I got this Noble thing down, you come along and make me look like an Idiot, umm, thanks a million.
I know your getting a piece of GURPS Traveller: Nobles, you are sooooo making me get a copy.
And so what would my sig look like then, mr smarty guy?
Last edited:
The core rules & setting give only 8 ranks
B = Knight
C = Baron
D = Marquis*
E = Count*
F = Duke
G = Archduke
H = Imperial (Prince/Emperor)
*these were reversed in one printing of CT.
Viscount is a common alternate for Soc C
CT's TTB lists (
B 11 Knight/Knightess/Dame
C 12 Baron, Baronet, Baroness
D 13 Marquis, Marquessa, Marchioness
E 14 Count, Countess, Contessa
F 15 Duke, Duchess.
CT sources imply several "intermediate" levels, never reflected in rules: Subsector Dukes vs Sector Dukes, multiple knighthood knights.
MT IE pages 12-15 is a reprint of the article in CT library data (S8 or S11).
It mentions several odd bits
11 Knight: various domain orders. Can be awarded by Archdukes or the Emperor. Not technically peers.
12 Baronette: can be awarded by the Archdukes. Not technically peers.
13 Marquis:Awarded by the emperor Peers. Serving marquisates usually a major world
14 Count: awarded by the emperor. Peers. Usually associated with 2-3 worlds.
15 Duke: Awarded by the emperor. Peers. Subsector or Sector.
16 Archduke: Awarded by the emperor. Peers. Domain.
17 Emperor: Awarded by the Moot. Peer. The Imperium.
Note that later articles include princes as soc 17. Bannerettes shoudl be 11.5, not 12, and imperial princes 16.5. T20 puts emperor separate from the other royals, and has princes above archdukes and below the emperor.
Viscount is a common replacement for Marquis, but in GT, it's a different type of title with the same precedence.
Note also: there are various orders of knighthood, most equal, and it appears in Traveller that they are hereditary. Many people put in local (sector) orders as well, which would rank about 10.5 on the soc scale.
Viscounts in some peoples games would be 12.5, in others 13.5, in others still merely 13. For some, a Viscount is a 14, even, but is a single world of great import rather than several moderate worlds.
I allow players to choose to take benefits in lieu of additional soc once at soc 11 (B) or more.
A knight may add a new order or a feif, or take a reward (honor) promotion to baron, or take a promotion to Knight Commander within their order.
To be a knight of the Order of the Imperium IMTU, you need 2 landed knighthoods.
A baron may take a feif, or a reward (honor) promotion, or take a knighthood with feif.
A baron with a feif, and with both the domain and imperial knighthoods with feifs may be a Territorial Baron (Baron of a system)
A territorial baron may take a reward title of Marquis.
A Marquis may take a feif or a reward promotion, or an additional knighthood.
An enfeoffed honor marquis who is a territorial baron may become a territorial marquis.
etc...
But I'm big on nobility.
Essentially, MTU uses the following:
At any point, any character who has multiple knighthoods (KC, or IK) both with feifs, I allow to begin down the landed track. Which means a landed baron (Imp. Rep for a world) is at least 5 improvements from a basic SocB knight.... each rise requires the honor promotion, honor fief, and then an additional soc+1 for the title upgrade. to get to imperial baron, you've sunk 1 on the KF fief, 1 on the KC title, 1 on the Baron Honor, 1 on the basic honor feif, and then one on the imperial barony.
A starting baron is a domain knight IMTU, so they need spend one less soc improvement. (They still have to go back and get the improvements to the knighthoods.)
B = Knight
C = Baron
D = Marquis*
E = Count*
F = Duke
G = Archduke
H = Imperial (Prince/Emperor)
*these were reversed in one printing of CT.
Viscount is a common alternate for Soc C
CT's TTB lists (
B 11 Knight/Knightess/Dame
C 12 Baron, Baronet, Baroness
D 13 Marquis, Marquessa, Marchioness
E 14 Count, Countess, Contessa
F 15 Duke, Duchess.
CT sources imply several "intermediate" levels, never reflected in rules: Subsector Dukes vs Sector Dukes, multiple knighthood knights.
MT IE pages 12-15 is a reprint of the article in CT library data (S8 or S11).
It mentions several odd bits
11 Knight: various domain orders. Can be awarded by Archdukes or the Emperor. Not technically peers.
12 Baronette: can be awarded by the Archdukes. Not technically peers.
12 Baron: Awarded by the Emperor. Lowest rank of "Peerage". SIngle minor world.MT IE said:
13 Marquis:Awarded by the emperor Peers. Serving marquisates usually a major world
14 Count: awarded by the emperor. Peers. Usually associated with 2-3 worlds.
15 Duke: Awarded by the emperor. Peers. Subsector or Sector.
16 Archduke: Awarded by the emperor. Peers. Domain.
17 Emperor: Awarded by the Moot. Peer. The Imperium.
Note that later articles include princes as soc 17. Bannerettes shoudl be 11.5, not 12, and imperial princes 16.5. T20 puts emperor separate from the other royals, and has princes above archdukes and below the emperor.
Viscount is a common replacement for Marquis, but in GT, it's a different type of title with the same precedence.
Note also: there are various orders of knighthood, most equal, and it appears in Traveller that they are hereditary. Many people put in local (sector) orders as well, which would rank about 10.5 on the soc scale.
Viscounts in some peoples games would be 12.5, in others 13.5, in others still merely 13. For some, a Viscount is a 14, even, but is a single world of great import rather than several moderate worlds.
I allow players to choose to take benefits in lieu of additional soc once at soc 11 (B) or more.
A knight may add a new order or a feif, or take a reward (honor) promotion to baron, or take a promotion to Knight Commander within their order.
To be a knight of the Order of the Imperium IMTU, you need 2 landed knighthoods.
A baron may take a feif, or a reward (honor) promotion, or take a knighthood with feif.
A baron with a feif, and with both the domain and imperial knighthoods with feifs may be a Territorial Baron (Baron of a system)
A territorial baron may take a reward title of Marquis.
A Marquis may take a feif or a reward promotion, or an additional knighthood.
An enfeoffed honor marquis who is a territorial baron may become a territorial marquis.
etc...
But I'm big on nobility.
Essentially, MTU uses the following:
Code:
Soc_ Title___________________________ Promotion_Options
11 Knight . . . . . . . . . . . . . KF, 11.1, 11.6, 12
11.1 Knight Commander (KC) . . . . . KCF, 11.2, 11.3, 11.6, 12
11.2 Knight Grand Commander (KGC) . . KGCF, 11.6, 12
11.3 Imperial Knighthood . . . . . . KF, 11.6, 12
11.4 Imperial Knight Commander . . . KCF, 11.6, 12
11.5 Imperial Knight Grand Commander KGCF, 11.6, 12
11.6 Baronet . . . . . . . . . . . . BntF, 12
12 Baron . . . . . . . . . . . . . BnF, 13
13 Marquis . . . . . . . . . . . . MqF, 14
14 Count . . . . . . . . . . . . . CtF, 15
15 Duke . . . . . . . . . . . . . . DkFAt any point, any character who has multiple knighthoods (KC, or IK) both with feifs, I allow to begin down the landed track. Which means a landed baron (Imp. Rep for a world) is at least 5 improvements from a basic SocB knight.... each rise requires the honor promotion, honor fief, and then an additional soc+1 for the title upgrade. to get to imperial baron, you've sunk 1 on the KF fief, 1 on the KC title, 1 on the Baron Honor, 1 on the basic honor feif, and then one on the imperial barony.
A starting baron is a domain knight IMTU, so they need spend one less soc improvement. (They still have to go back and get the improvements to the knighthoods.)
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
I think the Barony would replace it, so you'd lose the "Sir" (unless you had another knighthood, or the first was a normal one).
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
There are numerous hierarchies of nobility throughout Europe, and the British hierarchy is not necessarily going to be adopted or adopted correctly (look how many legs the Pony Express has) so you can go with whatever you like. As Aramis has said, there isn't much in the CT canon.
For the purposes of our PBP, a lot depends on Gadrin. My formula would have Magnus forking out about a quarter million a year, with his suite costing over 5k per month, but Gadrin is using Gurps, which seems to be a lot more lenient - see his post #6 on this thread.
Thanks folks!
OK, I screwed up earlier, oops. Actually, I started with Soc B, (and yes, the Referee has my CharGen and gear list.)
So there it is. Obliviously, I went with Baron and two Knighthoods, just wondering if that is correct.
As for expenses, I figured around the several kCrImps a month, and now trying to figure out what I might have as Income/Assests...Starships are holy crap expensive!
OK, so it has been a bit since I immersed myself in the 3I and it is beginning to show, but I think I know what I am going to be reading for the next week, tons of books....:toast:
OK, I screwed up earlier, oops. Actually, I started with Soc B, (and yes, the Referee has my CharGen and gear list.)
Spoiler:
So there it is. Obliviously, I went with Baron and two Knighthoods, just wondering if that is correct.
As for expenses, I figured around the several kCrImps a month, and now trying to figure out what I might have as Income/Assests...Starships are holy crap expensive!
OK, so it has been a bit since I immersed myself in the 3I and it is beginning to show, but I think I know what I am going to be reading for the next week, tons of books....:toast:
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
For what it's worth this was part of my reason for setting up some lose guidelines for Noble ship classes. To keep things simple I set out the guidelines for the type of ship that came as part of the Noble Estate. So the receipt of "ship" by a Noble comes with no payments attached (the estate can afford it) and the player is responsible only for the ongoing expenses (crew, consumables, maintenance and repairs).
These are the personal ships of the Noble. Each is typically built to order upon installation on the estate (so will take time to build before being available).
Some Nobles will take over the previous ship, at least until such time as their new one is ready, even if it is not to their specific needs it will still be of the appropriate class and performance for their station. Many Knights, those without lands, have no choice in the matter and have to make do with the previous, usually old, ship until they can afford to pay out of their own pocket for a refit or new ship.
Those guidelines, posted elsewhere, are briefly based on SOC = TL:
Knight - 200ton J2 2G TLB (basically the old standard Yacht per CT)
Baron - 400ton J3 3G TLC
Marquis - 600ton J4 4G TLD
Count - 800ton J5 5G TLE
Duke - 1000ton J6 6G TLF
and added just now...
Archduke - 5Kton J6 6G TLG
Emperor - 10Kton J6 6G TLH
Note that jump performance may rely on standard 30ton or 50ton drop tanks in some specific cases for full range. In these cases the drop tanks are not fitted as part of the hull and are never carried, only used to make jumps. They are available freely for use in the Noble's home system and Imperial ports with a Navy base.
ok, ummm sorta.
OK, got that, in fact that's about what is working out over on the Blue Smoke Design thread...
The thing is I get the ship, what sources of Income, like what does an Agent of the Imperium get paid? Do you get any resources from the knighthood(s)? Or am I trying to figure out what I did to make HIM so mad at me that I got saddled with almost kCr 100/mo. in just Starship expenses...
Curious and something of a small flaw with some of the Careers, Traveller really could use some sorta income/outlay tables or something...IMNotSoHO
OK, got that, in fact that's about what is working out over on the Blue Smoke Design thread...
The thing is I get the ship, what sources of Income, like what does an Agent of the Imperium get paid? Do you get any resources from the knighthood(s)? Or am I trying to figure out what I did to make HIM so mad at me that I got saddled with almost kCr 100/mo. in just Starship expenses...
Curious and something of a small flaw with some of the Careers, Traveller really could use some sorta income/outlay tables or something...IMNotSoHO
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
A lot of this is covered in T5.
Can't I just get a Comp Copy... 
Well, yet another reason I have to get a copy of my new and improved and much beloved game....grrrr. not really.
Well, yet another reason I have to get a copy of my new and improved and much beloved game....grrrr. not really.
Darley51
SOC-9
Dave Cooper's Article, Travelling Alone (http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/rules/alone.html) is the source I found for your formula... but it is calculated on PER WEEK IN PORT basis... not a per month amount. I've been using it for about a month (ala solitaire) and it seems to work appropriately enough for my purposes....
Last edited:
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Cheers Darley, a useful article. I'd read it before at some time but lost it again.
As you saw when you quoted me, I thought it was ok for low values of Soc for your average drifter in port, but it doesn't really take account of Noble spending.
As you saw when you quoted me, I thought it was ok for low values of Soc for your average drifter in port, but it doesn't really take account of Noble spending.
Why Dahling...
Didn't you Know, Nobles are Comped! *grins* Well, if one is a free loading swag noble, and well, when you're a broke ass noble too. *shrugs* What, I still have no Idea how I survive.
*GRINS* OK, I got one idea....kept man! "But, baby it's supposed to be My Starship, do we have to go there?"
Didn't you Know, Nobles are Comped! *grins* Well, if one is a free loading swag noble, and well, when you're a broke ass noble too. *shrugs* What, I still have no Idea how I survive.
*GRINS* OK, I got one idea....kept man! "But, baby it's supposed to be My Starship, do we have to go there?"
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
Magnus, since your character will probably be handled by several referees during his career, each with their own ideas of noble spending, I wouldn't worry too much. Just assume that the referee will allow you to spend what he thinks is reasonable and will draw the line if you spend too much.
IYTU, of course, you'll need to figure what you think is reasonable so that all your nobles are treated fairly - noble spending is only important for a Ref, not for a player.
IYTU, of course, you'll need to figure what you think is reasonable so that all your nobles are treated fairly - noble spending is only important for a Ref, not for a player.
Imtu?
Perhaps then I could be really mean and tie to Muster Cash, but naw seems real mean.
Basically TORG had a rich kid template that worked like that, you spend your time explaining to the GM why you need a battleship (wet navy), not can you afford one.
Perhaps then I could be really mean and tie to Muster Cash, but naw seems real mean.
Basically TORG had a rich kid template that worked like that, you spend your time explaining to the GM why you need a battleship (wet navy), not can you afford one.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
imtu
Basically a Noble engaged in the day-to-day business of running their little corner of The Imperium doesn't need to worry about accounting for expenses, they have people who do that. But it would be incredibly boring as a player character for most groups.
What most players engage in are the Adventuring Nobles, the Knight Errant, and Diplomat at Large, and such. Landless and loving it. No fief to run tying them down, but sadly no endless funds to support a lavish lifestyle either.
They get by (or don't) on what they can cadge out of other (usually lower) Nobles and Imperial assets. Free fuel and upkeep of their Yacht at Imperial Bases (like Detached Duty Scouts) for example, when it fits in with the base command.
Oh, I also add 1 term to retirement benefits per "rank" of Nobility to represent a small honourarium bestowed by The Emperor. So a Knight would be +1 terms, and a Baron would be +2 terms, and so on, on the retirement benefits table. Even if not a full 5 Term Service character you'd get the benefits for your Noble rank.
Basically a Noble engaged in the day-to-day business of running their little corner of The Imperium doesn't need to worry about accounting for expenses, they have people who do that. But it would be incredibly boring as a player character for most groups.
What most players engage in are the Adventuring Nobles, the Knight Errant, and Diplomat at Large, and such. Landless and loving it. No fief to run tying them down, but sadly no endless funds to support a lavish lifestyle either.
They get by (or don't) on what they can cadge out of other (usually lower) Nobles and Imperial assets. Free fuel and upkeep of their Yacht at Imperial Bases (like Detached Duty Scouts) for example, when it fits in with the base command.
Oh, I also add 1 term to retirement benefits per "rank" of Nobility to represent a small honourarium bestowed by The Emperor. So a Knight would be +1 terms, and a Baron would be +2 terms, and so on, on the retirement benefits table. Even if not a full 5 Term Service character you'd get the benefits for your Noble rank.
Last edited: