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Logistics Ships

Anyone have statistics and/or deck plans for Imperial Navy logistics ships? Oilers, cargo/ammo ships, repair ships/mobile docks, anything like that?

- Tom

[EDIT: Actually, I wouldn't mind any of the above from any of the powers, not just the Imperial Navy]
 
Aside from tankers, not much out there.

Then again, most naval resupply vessels nowadays are little more than armed and armored merchantment; save the Oilers/Colliers. The Oilers/Colliers are equipped for massive liquid transfer.

The only specialized resupply vessels I can think of are the Aviation Colliers, specially designed to maximize the JP loads they carry, and to transfer to CVN's fast.

In a sense, given the rampant nature of armed freighters in Traveller, and the ease of transfer by simply docking bay to bay and "tossing" canisters, there is little need for the specialized hardware an Aviation resupply ship needs. Even more so since coasting on-course works in space, but not on water.

Essentially, the only things that need special hardware are "Live" loads, Munitions, and vacuum sensitive materials (like food).
Aside from Live loads, like people, sheep, cattle, most of these can be in self contained cargo containers, and thus not need special handling by the ship aside from power-feeds.

To my mind, the only times you really need fast supply transfer are:
</font>
  • Combat Fast Resupply - you're under fire.</font>
  • Life Support is failing due to lack of supplies</font>
  • too many ships need resupply to do so before the travel will result in destined course.</font>
 
Is there anything specific you are looking for? I'd like to take a crack at some. I did one a while back that is essentially a mobile drydock, or like a construction platform for use in construction of orbital cities...

Ship: SHDC Constructor
Class: Constructor
Type: Construction Spacecraft
Architect: Sidur Haski Design Consortium
Tech Level: 15

USP
CON-A701132-000000-20000-0 MCr 195.105 1 KTons
Bat Bear 2 Crew: 13
Bat 2 TL: 15

Cargo: 816 Fuel: 10 EP: 30 Agility: 1
Craft: 1 x 10T G Hauler

Architects Fee: MCr 1.941 Cost in Quantity: MCr 156.284


Detailed Description
(T20 Design)

HULL
1,000.000 tons standard, 14,000.000 cubic meters, Dispersed Structure Configuration, 100.000 Structure Points

CREW
Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, Medic, 2 Gunners, 7 Additional Crew (User Defined)

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 1G Manuever, 15.000 Ton Power Plant, 30.000 EP, Agility 1

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/3 Computer, Model/3 Flight Avionics, Model/3 Sensors, Model/3 Communications

HARDPOINTS
2 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
2 Single Beam Laser Turrets organised into 2 Batteries (Factor-2)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
1 10.000 ton G Hauler (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 1.000)

FUEL
10 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
No Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
7 Staterooms, 1 Engineering Shop, 1 Vehicle Shop, 1 Laboratory, 1 Sick Bay, 1 Autodoc, 1 Additional Airlock, 816 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
4 Heavy Payload Manipulators (5.000 tons, Crew 1, 1.000 Energy Point, Cost MCr 2.000), 2 Molecular Bonders (2.000 tons, Crew 1, 1.000 Energy Point, Cost MCr 2.000), 1 Payload Towing Array (10.000 tons, Crew 1, 1.000 Energy Point, Cost MCr 5.000)

COST
MCr 196.046 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 1.941), MCr 155.284 in Quantity, plus MCr 1.000 of Carried Craft (Hardpoints and Turrets charged)

CONSTRUCTION TIME
120 Weeks Singly, 96 Weeks in Quantity

COMMENTS
 
Originally posted by Aramis:

To my mind, the only times you really need fast supply transfer are:
</font>
  • Combat Fast Resupply - you're under fire.</font>
  • Life Support is failing due to lack of supplies</font>
  • too many ships need resupply to do so before the travel will result in destined course.</font>
How about in isolated systems where there is no or limited supply capability or in an enemy held system where resupply and repairs that don't require a full dry-docking can keep assets on site?

The problem with using a completely modern naval paradigm while looking at Traveller, at least to me, feel free to smack me upside the head, is that effective lines of supply are far longer in the Imperium. The presence of Supply Squadrons or at least support ships assigned to another squadron seems necessary to extended combat operations.

Come to think of it, most forms of Traveller could do with better detailing on carried supplies and operation life support limits.

- Tom
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
<snip>
Actually, that's very close to what I'm looking for, a ship that can be used for repairs, even possibly heavy repairs, although it probably needs to be uprated for military service, at least with some more PD weapons. Thanks.
 
I wonder about tanker design. What tonnage is too large to take a gas giant scoop orbit or an ocean refuel? Would it be better to just have a giant ziplock bag with a jump drive and wrap that around a small comet, jump outsystem, and refine the volatiles on the way to fuel and life support gases?
 
Jeff: none are too big, canonically, I think. Although, you might be right about what is more efficient. It would depend on how much of the comet/KO object/asteroid is waste. (But, then again, you could use all that extra stuff, too.)
 
Originally posted by Ladegard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aramis:

To my mind, the only times you really need fast supply transfer are:
</font>
  • Combat Fast Resupply - you're under fire.</font>
  • Life Support is failing due to lack of supplies</font>
  • too many ships need resupply to do so before the travel will result in destined course.</font>
How about in isolated systems where there is no or limited supply capability or in an enemy held system where resupply and repairs that don't require a full dry-docking can keep assets on site?
</font>[/QUOTE]The rate of transfer is completely unrelated to jump distance, aside form the impacts upon cargo space. I was referring to the ability to quickly pass over supplies (like the VK types 2000gpm fuel pumps).

Repairs, canonically, require a yard, and yards are part of type AB&C ports.

TNE allows for Jury-rigged repairs, and MT implies them, provided parts are available. Machine shops would allow for part replication.

The problem with using a completely modern naval paradigm while looking at Traveller, at least to me, feel free to smack me upside the head, is that effective lines of supply are far longer in the Imperium. The presence of Supply Squadrons or at least support ships assigned to another squadron seems necessary to extended combat operations.
You're both right on and dead wrong.

AK's and VK's are essential in the modern navy because of the short nature of the routing; it's more cost effective to keep the long term supplies elsewhere. Most of the doucumentation suggests most ships now carry a three month supply, and resupply after two of the three. Major parts are not carried, as anythign major enough to not make it back to port usually is severe enough to make the hull non-recoverable.

Some, however, don't: Subs can be deployed for up to six months without resupply. With divers, it is possible, but unhealthy, to acquire additional food without ever surfacing, and food is the primary limiter. (Water, O2, and needed minerals can be extracted from the seawater; the scrubbers can be field recharged, but it would not be a terribly safe practice; and entertainment for most of the crew would be running thin.)

In traveller, however, we have ships which routinely run 6 month to 1 year cruises. Destroyers with crews larger than modern Supercariers. WE know that one Td of supplies is 100 person weeks of food, LS, and filters. (beltstrike, and best of JTAS vol 1)

To take a 6000 man crew, 6 months (24 weeks) 1440 Td of resupplies are needed, and up to 1 month of that is storable in the equipment. Thus we need 1200Td of cargo to hold it.

Since no destroyer design I've seen in canon carries 6 months supplies, that means we're looking at, for the most part, 4 week jaunts. 1 jump out, 2 weeks on station, 1 week back.

Repair ships are a whole 'nother matter; they don't exist in the current naval model; recovery ships haul other ships back to port for repairs, but generally do not field repair them. "If it's not repairable on-station with parts on hand, head back."

For traveller, this seems also to be the situation.

Come to think of it, most forms of Traveller could do with better detailing on carried supplies and operation life support limits.

- Tom
Agreed. Beltstrike is important because, for the first time, it puts limits on how much food takes. It's basically the same as the JTAS article, only a lot more on the same subject.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:


The rate of transfer is completely unrelated to jump distance, aside form the impacts upon cargo space. I was referring to the ability to quickly pass over supplies (like the VK types 2000gpm fuel pumps).


OK, just us talking past each other a bit. Apologies.


Repairs, canonically, require a yard, and yards are part of type AB&C ports.

TNE allows for Jury-rigged repairs, and MT implies them, provided parts are available. Machine shops would allow for part replication.

<snip>

You're both right on and dead wrong.

<snip>

In traveller, however, we have ships which routinely run 6 month to 1 year cruises. Destroyers with crews larger than modern Supercariers. WE know that one Td of supplies is 100 person weeks of food, LS, and filters. (beltstrike, and best of JTAS vol 1)


Neither of which I have. I envy your collection


To take a 6000 man crew, 6 months (24 weeks) 1440 Td of resupplies are needed, and up to 1 month of that is storable in the equipment. Thus we need 1200Td of cargo to hold it.

Since no destroyer design I've seen in canon carries 6 months supplies, that means we're looking at, for the most part, 4 week jaunts. 1 jump out, 2 weeks on station, 1 week back.


But, as you said above, supposedly we have ships out for up to a year. Therefore, either designs are really sloppy or their getting supplies from somewhere. I suppose the best answer probably is that canon designs need to be fixed up a bit. I have noted the lack of cargo hold in most designs.

Admittedly, though, the image of an Imperial frigate pulling into orbit, putting out ship's boats for water and food and pressing any able bodies they find into service does appeal to the Ramage side of my soul. ;)



Repair ships are a whole 'nother matter; they don't exist in the current naval model; recovery ships haul other ships back to port for repairs, but generally do not field repair them. "If it's not repairable on-station with parts on hand, head back."

For traveller, this seems also to be the situation.


Except I'm not sure how viable this is under traveller mechanics. Jump tows are an odd subject.


Come to think of it, most forms of Traveller could do with better detailing on carried supplies and operation life support limits.

- Tom
Agreed. Beltstrike is important because, for the first time, it puts limits on how much food takes. It's basically the same as the JTAS article, only a lot more on the same subject.
I'll have to dig up copies from somewhere. Thanks for the info.

- Tom
 
Since no destroyer design I've seen in canon carries 6 months supplies, that means we're looking at, for the most part, 4 week jaunts. 1 jump out, 2 weeks on station, 1 week back.
doesn't seem possible to run a traveller navy that way. perhaps that's why the imperium has been so passive in the face of continued zhodani aggression - they have no capacity for sustained operations.
 
either designs are really sloppy or their getting supplies from somewhere. I suppose the best answer probably is that canon designs need to be fixed up a bit. I have noted the lack of cargo hold in most designs.
or they're just not thought through. wouldn't be surprising, traveller as a subject matter is extensive.

I was on a carrier. the supply spaces beneath decks were surprisingly extensive. the space allotted to toilet paper alone was the size of an apartment. and this was a ship that received cargo aircraft frequently, sometimes every day, in addition to regular underway replenishments.

cargo space and supply and support ships will be critical to the utility of any fleet.
 
Not sure who to attribute this to, too many QBs


WE know that one Td of supplies is 100 person weeks of food, LS, and filters. (beltstrike, and best of JTAS vol 1)

Which is also very close to T20's one Td for 80 person weeks food, LS (presumably), and filters (again a guess). See page 348 for costs.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
cargo space and supply and support ships will be critical to the utility of any fleet.
It is as the saying goes: Wars aren't won the battlefield, they're won in the kitchen.
 
Remember reading somewhere in JTAS that a soldier requires 5 tons of ship capacity for offensive operations. Invasion over interstellar distances must be a logistical nightmare.

Didn't know about the Beltstrike rules, I never bought/couldn't find it...I usually used the Asteroid Mining rules.

Even on a carrier fresh food runs out first. I remember being overjoyed to see celery after a 4 week absence, only to find it was so rubbery I actually tied it into a knot... :eek:
 
Well, I can say that a command ship can run for a while without replenishment, but they don't. We had an underway replenishment (UNREP) about every 2-3 weeks. That (sorta) includes pulling into ports and filling up, too. Very little fuel was taken on in ports - mostly foodstuffs. As flykiller says, the holds on a carrier are HUGE, and they don't do nearly as many UNREPs as the smaller ships. And, when they do, the biggest commodity in which they are interested is jet fuel.

I think the idea of fleet tenders is a good idea. Otherwise, you are restricted to fairly limited ops in contested space. When you are in home territory, it's stop at the spaceport: crew gets "shore" leave, load up with gas and food, and fresh the atmosphere.
 
Originally posted by Dominion Loyalty Officer:

Even on a carrier fresh food runs out first. I remember being overjoyed to see celery after a 4 week absence, only to find it was so rubbery I actually tied it into a knot... :eek:
Been there.

I not so fondly remember a midwatch where I was trying desperately to convince myself that soy milk really did taste good with coffee.

Of course, having rubber steak for dinner didn't help. One of the big multi-ton freezers had blown its chiller system early on. While the chiller system was being repaired, the temperature of the frozen steak had risen - but not enough to make the supply officer decide that the steak was inedible. So, several tons of steak had been partially thawed and then refrozen. This caused the cooked steak to become a tough, leathery substance that you could chew for hours. Once you swallowed it, the masticated steak formed a solid rubber lump in your stomach that took about three days to digest.

I bitch about that experience, but then I talk to my Dad about his time in the Navy during WW2 and feel that I had it easy.
 
Well, Jeff, that makes it last longer. You chew a little bit for a while, then come back for the rest later.
file_21.gif
We had some of the worst food I have ever had on a carrier in the Chief's Mess (! :eek: !) on the USS Reagan on its maiden voyage. Evidently they were having problems all around, but the wardroom food was supposedly better.

(For those who don't know:
Mess = enlisted
Chief's Mess = top enlisted & usually the BEST food on a ship
Wardroom = officers
Flag Mess = the Captain's dining room, for his top staff, and any big brass on board
)
 
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