Life expectancy.

[Blue Ghost]

Computers have been a point of mirth in OTU because of the technological leaps we've make (and are continuing to make) in electronic data processing, but how about health care?

There's been some kibitzing about this in past journals, but I'm wondering if in the far future technology and science might give us healthy life spans of a couple of centuries. From this perspective might not the official aging rules need some modifying to reflect this?

(assume no anagathics)

 

[far-trader]

The aging rules in character generation have been debated here and elsewhere. Not saying it shouldn't be again though

My contribution last time around was the way I've always looked at it is best summarized by quoting Indiana Jones "It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage."

In other words the typical Traveller lives hard, dies young. Sure you could live forever (or nearly so) if you played it safe by living a sensible life on a high tech rich garden world, and were lucky enough to avoid accidents and disasters. But where's the fun in that

Travellers are out there breathing alien bugs, soaking up rads, and generally abusing their health in a thousand different ways. Is it any wonder their bodies respond by failing at an early age?

Given that, there should be a different aging table for those safe careers like Bureaucrat. Unless it's like Bureacrat with a license to carry and enforce red tape around gas giants and such

 

[Merxiless]

Well since we are speculating:

Nowadays we have organ transplants. Not yet routine, but getting there.

In the future, I think perhaps anagathics will be better understood / Cloned organs will be used on some level, either with clones in some kind of black bag operation / covert illegal clone farm deal, making cloned organs a routine surgery in any number of decades, thus either or both combined expanding life span to perhaps 150 years or more.

In the far future, nanotechnology or similar or some greater understanding of how cancer works will be a great boon to life span. A century or more in the future with perhaps lives of 200 years.

In the very far, far future, people will be able to "build" and "repiar" a person from, essentially, raw materials. No one will die, except in the most dramatic accidents, and anything lesser, medical first aid kits will be able to fix most wounds except perhaps the brain. Perhaps 2 or 3 centuries. I have seen some articles that making long term predictions, say 250 years or less.

All of this is assuming:

The current geopolitical framework remains somewhat stable (which I don't think it will, really).

That no anti-technological surge or purge takes over or inhibits the growth of technology. Hard to say on this, I can see both / either.

And yes, I am a big fan of Ray Kurzweil, and an avid reader of Joel Garrou's "Radical Evolution".

So essentially, someone who lives out the next 50 years, might end up living, virtually forever, if they are lucky, at each stage.

My wife and I talk about this, sometimes to understand the psychology of someone that might be, say 400 years old. Hard to imagine from here. But someday, someone out there, will be this old, and have a much different understanding of the way the world works.

Not to say "thinking like Elves", but...there it is.

 

[far-trader]

Actually come to think of it, does the aging table actually imply a life expectancy? Even for hard living Travellers? Isn't there a ruling that your stats can't go below 1 through it or am I misremembering?

Edit: Looked it up. What I was recalling is the aging crisis roll. If an aging throw lowers an ability to 0 or less you roll 8+ (DM for medical) to survive.

Anyway, I'd probably relable the table as a first step. Something like Disabilitating Effects. Second step, I'd maybe introduce DMs for different careers. The less dangerous (long term health wise) the less likely you'd suffer a penalty to a stat. Keep the baseline for the classic hazardous careers (military and space) but allow others a break.

 

[Liam Devlin]

I seem to recall the JTAS article in Issue #19 on rejuvenation techniques, which was offered as an "Alternative' to costly, addictive anagathics..by Robert Reese's " Gerontology, rejuvenation & the INterstellar Traveller", pp 6-7.

These were set at TL-13, for a minimum tech basis to do or better, with an UWP A or B-class starport, UWP pop 3 to pop 8, UWP Law level 9 or less world.

Persons undergoing such treatments were at the rejuve medical facility undergoing said "rejuve"/ renewal of their bodies for a period of 6 T-standard months, plus 1 month per decade over sixty.

Example 1a: An 80-year old traveller, would spend 6 + 2(decades) months in this facility just feel like & look, be as healthy as he/she was at 50 again.

Example 1b: The 80-year old traveller wishes to be younger still, say in his 20's, then is spending 6+ 6 (decades), or 12 months at the facility.

Persons qualified to start these treatments had to prove they were 60 years of age or older.

Base cost was set at 15Mcr plus 5Mcr per decade over 60.

In example 1a, the Traveller would have paid 15+ 10MCr = 25MCr total for his eight month stay and rejuve, or the cost of an S-class Starship.

In 1b, he would have paid 45Mcr for the 12 month long treatment.

While Mr reese's article points out the interesting concepts of such a society of gerontology, and the high medical costs developing a classical case of "Haves" vs. "have nots" here, there also should have been an implemented ceiling based on the original character rolled up IMO of where to set the limit how many times, a character could physically be "rejuvenated" before final death.

The costs alone provide that only the continuously wealthy could afford it, naturally. My take on that would have been to suggest use of the Player's Endurance/ Constitution Score (for those using the 2d6 way of chargen) divided by two, and for those with 3d6 chargen, the Con, divided by three for a simple solution and sane ceiling limit.

that's all I recall on this..
helpfully yours,

 

[Merxiless]

I am curious as to why you'd set a limit, other than "Game balance"?

Seems to me that after a few centuries, there'd be a group of "power elites" that would run everything, (maybe not overtly, of course) with the skill, and experience to back it up. Then again, I'm a fan of games like Dark Matter, Dark Conspiracy, and Conspiracy X.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Well, merxiless, primarily it would be to prevent any possible player munchkinism and deathless Characters. It also puts a finite limit on how long such an NPC could exist taking such treatments, and still leave death as an option out--or the need for bodyguards (anyone here say "easy Merc ticket gig"---guard this old man/ woman for a year?

Still, the impact of such a gerontology-society would have in the SF setting validity. There would still be your power-elites, who had ruled for centuries..and allowance for stagnation of thought, form of government, responses to rapidly changing situations might not be the swiftest..and revolution from the poorer, younger population masses ruled thusly always around the corner..(Amber zone anyone?)

Something like this has been illustrated in the Simon Deathstalker series of SF books with their Nobility to some extent recently. the Honor Harrington's 'Verse has their Prolong I & II treatments, for example.

 

[Jame]

I've been developing a house rule where you can have up to 12 or 15 terms, and you don't begin aging rolls until the 6th ot 7th.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Survival rolls already cover career differences (especially the T4.1/T5 draft).

I allow TL bonuses to aging rolls.

 

[Klaus]

Originally posted by Merxiless:


And yes, I am a big fan of Ray Kurzweil, and an avid reader of Joel Garrou's "Radical Evolution".

Crosses index fingers, looks for the garlic, and reloads the shotgun..

Ray Kurzwiel is a very scary man. And almost certainly barking up the wrong tree, or just barking. I can see how he's good source material for sf ideas, though.

I've had personal dealings with some of his acolytes, the Extropians. As creepy as Scientologists, or the assistants in an Apple Shop (now they're seriously cultish!).

[EDIT: on second glance I saw my post could be construed as implying the original poster as also cultish. Not my intent at all, and I hope not taken that way.

]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:


I allow TL bonuses to aging rolls.

Sounds like a very sensible way to go, sir. Pray tell how it works in YTU.

 

[atpollard]

Isn't there also some scientific evidence that cells come with a built in maximum life span. As I recall, it has something to do with DNA loosing pieces in reproduction and some cells being non-regenerative. I thought that aging could be slowed, quality of life and general health could be drastically improved, but a life span much beyond 120 years required a "magic" breakthrough.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I forget the exact details, but it was something like:

TL Bonus
0-3 -2
4-7 -1
8-11 0
12-15 +1
16+ +2

 

[Merxiless]

Well, I don't know anything about any Extropians.

All I know about Kurzweil, was that he had written a text to speech program that I had used in college in 1995, that greatly helped me to com plete papers, which would have otherwise been too difficult. It was an amazing thing.

And, also, he was a key contributor in this book, "Radical Evolution".

 

[Andrew Boulton]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere#Extending_telomeres

 

[Klaus]

Not read that book, unfortunately. RK is definitely a top level programmer and theorist, it's just that I (that sounds pompous - that is, several commentators, whose judgements I respect) have doubts about his nanotech theories.

The Extropians have basically transformed Transhumanism into a religion, though they deny it. Not sure if they're still going; it was 10 years ago when I was researching them.

It's just they were very creepy, in the email exchanges I had with some of them. I was arguing that they're 'system' was so much like a religion as to be indistinguishable. They argued otherwise. Some of their stuff was just plain naff too. (example: badly photoshopped picture of a bodybuilder with circuit boards attatched to their head and spine ) Timothy Leary was one of their grandees, before he died.

There was a Horizon recently about transhumanist ideas, that featured Ray Kurzweil heavily. He came across as a fairly selfish and self indulgent person, especially where his life extension theories were concerned. A 'hippy fascist', as we call 'em round 'ere.

However, veering off topic madly.

Andrew, only +1 for TL15? TL15 ain't all it's cracked up to be is it?

 

[Plankowner]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Well, merxiless, primarily it would be to prevent any possible player munchkinism and deathless Characters. It also puts a finite limit on how long such an NPC could exist taking such treatments, and still leave death as an option out--or the need for bodyguards (anyone here say "easy Merc ticket gig"---guard this old man/ woman for a year? :devil: :smirk:

Still, the impact of such a gerontology-society would have in the SF setting validity. There would still be your power-elites, who had ruled for centuries..and allowance for stagnation of thought, form of government, responses to rapidly changing situations might not be the swiftest..and revolution from the poorer, younger population masses ruled thusly always around the corner..(Amber zone anyone?)

Something like this has been illustrated in the Simon Deathstalker series of SF books with their Nobility to some extent recently. the Honor Harrington's 'Verse has their Prolong I & II treatments, for example.

In Traveller can't you have that already with the Anagathics? They cost a fortune, but if I control a Sector-wide business, the cost is a rounding error on my annual Income Tax Form.

I could see Hi TL GOV 9 worlds having some kind of Eternal Elite... Maybe a GOV C if they did a good job...

 

[Liam Devlin]

In Traveller can't you have that already with the Anagathics? They cost a fortune, but if I control a Sector-wide business, the cost is a rounding error on my annual Income Tax Form.

True that, plankowner, but this was suggested as an alternative in the issue 19/ 1983 JTAS article. This before anagathics were in MT and onwards dictated as TL-15 wonder youth drugs only..

I could see Hi TL GOV 9 worlds having some kind of Eternal Elite... Maybe a GOV C if they did a good job..

True again. The TNE-RSB mentions the "ghouls" of Anagathics B disenfranchised nobility when they retconned in a measure preventing eternal life with jump translation sickness..

so "eternal" is relative. Longer lived, certainly!

 

[Klaus]

OK, last semi-off topic post from me, but this is basically the dissertation I was trying to write at uni 10 years ago, if it hadn't been for alcohol, women, laziness, an inability to write academic texts, and, at that time, Spacemaster, getting in the way.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Klaus... you calling me a cultist?

atpollard; one of the recent topics on NPR last year was extended (virtual or near immortality) via genetic re-engineering of that built in life limit. It's actually kind of why I brought up this topic.

Everyone else; some great thoughts. I think maybe for T5, or even a future article, a revamp or tweak of the aging rules might be in order. That is the basic age table would remain the same, but higher tech levels (as per Andrew Boulton's house rules) would imply different or modified charts.

Errr... let us veer away from Extropians

 

[rogermccarthy]

Someone asked about the life expectancy implied by the Book 1 tables.

I seem to remember working this out on one the T5 forums and believe the result was that on average a UPP 777777 character would die at around 70 - which by accident or design just happened to be the male life expectancy in the US at the time Book 1 was written.

30 years on RW average US LE has already risen 10 years and projections of average LE of 100+ hardly seem implausible now - and may well be reached in Japan in a few decades even without huge medical breakthroughs.

At one stage I used DMs based on both TL and Soc - say ((TL+Soc)-14)/4 for CT chargen.

This effectively treats TL and Soc 7 as the base and assumes that variations from either will impact LE and ageing.

So a Soc-13, TL-15 noble would get +4 to all ageing rolls, while the Soc-2 TL-0 barbarian would get -3, fail most ageing rolls and be lucky to reach 60.