Legal Status of other supplements

[Leitz]

As a poor teen I was able to dream and play being a rich merchant travelling the stars like Han Solo. I appreciated the joy Marc and the crew brought and show my appreciation by vigorously respecting his IP.

I like to code. Since CT isn't freely available I take the next best thing; CE. I can put code up in public and share it with others who may get the same sort of joy. CE is a way I can bless others as I have been blessed.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

But what thought did you want to compelte with your "If Marc Miller ..." phrase? You said "If", but there was no "then...".

BG, I am not a consistently good writer, sorry.

The "then" I meant is that Mr. Miller will protect his IP as vigorously as John protects Clement Sector and Gypsy Knight Games. It is not only about money nor is it only about credit for creativity. They both play a part. How much of it depends on the individual involved.

A bit of analysis of the situation. Who owns Far Future Enterprises?...I think he knows and has approved or at least aquiesced or there would not be a Cepheus Forum here in the first place,
1.Just look at the bottom of the webpage you are reading
"This website and its contents are copyright ©2010-2013 Far Future Enterprises. All rights reserved. Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises .
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright (c) 2010-2013, Far Future Enterprises. All Rights Reserved."

2.I contend that Cepheus Engine is merely doing to Traveller what the OSR and Pathfinder did to D&D. They OGL'ed it and are following the same methodology. The sources cited to create Cepheus:

15. COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0a Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
High Guard System Reference Document Copyright © 2008, Mongoose Publishing.
Mercenary System Reference Document Copyright © 2008, Mongoose Publishing.
Modern System Reference Document Copyright 2002-2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, Eric Cagle, David Noonan, Stan!, Christopher Perkins, Rodney Thompson, and JD Wiker, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Wiker.
Swords & Wizardry Core Rules, Copyright 2008, Matthew J. Finch
System Reference Document, Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
T20 - The Traveller’s Handbook Copyright 2002, Quiklink Interactive, Inc. Traveller is a trademark of Far Future Enterprises and is used under license.
Traveller System Reference Document Copyright © 2008, Mongoose Publishing.
Traveller is © 2008 Mongoose Publishing. Traveller and related logos, character, names, and distinctive likenesses thereof are trademarks of Far Future Enterprises unless otherwise noted. All Rights Reserved. Mongoose Publishing Ltd Authorized User.
Cepheus Engine System Reference Document, Copyright © 2016 Samardan Press; Author Jason "Flynn" Kemp

Now if OGL is the problem, well that ship has been sailing since 2000 and if Hasbro thought it was an issue...

 

[Hyphen]

FWIW, you can always write directly to Marc, tell him what you're planning to write, and ask for permission to make it freely available. He's been very generous with granting permission. That's how most fan-made Traveller software has been released.

 

[Independence Games]

Other seem to be editorial decisions to make Cepheus more like CT. Like the format of character generation. There are no event tables and skill packages, even though they were in the SRD.
Yet event tables are in the new Diverse Roles supplement or at least the sample has them.

The basic Cepheus Engine rules do not have the event tables. That's Jason's preference and I don't wish to speak for him concerning his reasoning.

Clement Sector: The Rules (which is our take on Cepheus Engine) is a bit different here and there. That's one of the key differences and that is due to my preferences.

 

[Independence Games]

Just purusing DriveThruRPG I have issues with Cepheus. It just feels like a Traveller knockoff, and in that regard a lawsuit waiting to happen. Right down to the generic black covers.

Whatever.

I think this is because you are not grokking the concept of the OGL and how placing things into an SRD is granting permission of use. You are seeing this as a theft of someone's tool box when, in actuality, it is using someone's tools that they have given you.

And Cepheus doesn't use generic black covers for it's two books. So I've no clue where you have gotten that idea.

 

[Independence Games]

I don't know. It just seems fishy to me. GL to whoever delves into it.

Allow me to explain further. Mongoose placed these rules into an SRD and, under the rules set forth by the OGL, that grants permission for those tools to be used. I assume that this was done by Mongoose with Marc's permission. That means that Marc, through Mongoose, has granted the use of these rules.

If Marc didn't grant permission to Mongoose to place these rules into an SRD, then Marc has a rather serious problem that he needs to iron out with Mongoose! Again, I am not privy to Marc's relationship with Mongoose but I think it's fair to assume that he has granted permission for this to happen. The SRD has been out there for several years now.

I hope to see Marc at Travellercon in late September and hope to have a great conversation with him about all of this (assuming that I am able to be there).

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'll wait to read some official posting on Far Future or on Mongoose, because otherwise it seems awfully murky to me.

I have concepts that don't gybe with Marc Miller's OTU canon, but might make a good evening's fun for a gaming group who want something other than than the OTU. But, I'm repeating myself here on that point.

 

[Independence Games]

I'll wait to read some official posting on Far Future or on Mongoose, because otherwise it seems awfully murky to me.

This has already happened. It is called the Traveller SRD. You can find it at the link that I posted earlier in this thread.

 

[Leitz]

FWIW, you can always write directly to Marc, tell him what you're planning to write, and ask for permission to make it freely available. He's been very generous with granting permission. That's how most fan-made Traveller software has been released.

I've had an e-mail chat with Marc and it went well. The issue is that I'm writing game supplements and directly related book sized works of fiction that would dictate and rely on canon. Not something I want to do and not something anyone else wants me doing.

Since CE allows you to easily modify things that's what I'm going with. It's much more open as in "ended" and as in "source"; both those appeal to me.

 

[exedore6]

I'm not a lawyer, only an interested party in RPG's, open licensing, and Traveller.

Lets not forget that Pathfinder exists. Paizo releases settings for it. Paizo releases adventures for it. Paizo (and everyone else) releases rules additions for it. Some of these products are intended to fill a hole that TSR or WotC (or Piazo for that matter) left. Hasbro chose to allow Pathfinder to exist, and while there are probably reasons beyond "Paizo didn't violate the license", D&D 4E would've likely had a different life if Paizo could be hobbled. Whether terms like "Hit Points" can be copyrighted are murky enough that WotC chose to patent elements of Magic.

I'd expect any of this would be safe (alternate profiles, extensions, locations, persons etc would be 'dangerous') - and within how the OGL has been interpreted in the past 17 years.

To republish Pocket Empires or Dynasty for Cepheus would be heroically stupid. But, given that there's a hole in the generational/uplift/domain management area in Cepheus, if you designed a game that dovetailed into the released SRD, you should be fine legally. Similarly, if I'm a software developer who maintains a word processor, I'd be able to add a feature that Microsoft incorporates into word.

If I were to make something to fill such a hole, I'd think it bad form if one were to fail to notify the owners of the games that inspired it, but bad form/good form isn't the basis of IP law.

 

[Adam Dray]

It just feels wrong to me. I mean why not just create a different 2d6 game altogether, and not borrow or otherwise mirror someone else's creation? That's what I don't get.

You fail to get so much of this.

Folks like John (Gypsy Knights) had produced scads of original, MgT1-compatible material under the existing license. Then Mongoose yanked that license.

They left three options:

1. Stop publishing the material that has been legal all these years.

2. Republish the material under the new community license that was intended for hobbyists, not third-party publishers, since it essentially opened all of that published material wide open to anyone to republish under the same license.

3. Redevelop the material as OGL-compatible, rather than Mongoose Traveller-compatible. Which is what they did.

I suppose there was this option 4 you're talking about:

4. Write a brand new RPG and redevelop all of the old MgT1 material for the new RPG.

However, that would alienate existing fans and put a 3PP at serious financial risk (Traveller is a small enough market; I wouldn't want to make a go of it with a brand new RPG).

So they developed Cepheus Engine to fill the OGL gap.

It's entirely legal. I don't understand anyone's argument to the contrary. It is the right of the author to sub-license the work, which is what Marc did and which is what Mongoose did, and that sub-license (the OGL) is what gives anyone permission to take the Open Content portion of the Mongoose Traveller rules (namely, the Traveller System Reference Document, or SRD) and do what they like with it--even make a whole new game that looks as much like Traveller as possible.

It's not murky. It's very clear sub-licensing, and the best Aramis has come up with is this dubious claim of moral rights in foreign countries, when it's a contract law issue, not a moral rights issue. I don't see Hasbro / Wizards of the Coast suing Paizo in France over Pathfinder, despite Pathfinder knocking D&D out of the #1 RPG spot for a while. There's no there there.

It's not mean-spirited. It's done out of love. People want to keep producing Traveller material without a lot of legal hassle. The OGL was designed to open the doors for people to do exactly that. The OGL was designed, right or wrong, for the purpose of creating an Open/Free community (in the software sense) where ideas could be shared easily and where "openness" has a sort of viral nature.

 

[aramis]

It's entirely legal.

No. It's entirely in unclear legal waters. There's been no legislation nor litigation that clears it up, either.
The existing litigation has ignored the open license issues. It's not even entirely clear for software.
Contract law also considers the effects of the contract; there are limitations and possibilities that may render a contract invalid, such as forced transfer of IP and forfeiture of extant rights...
Plus, I know a senator interested in ending open licenses entirely.

I don't understand anyone's argument to the contrary. It is the right of the author to sub-license the work, which is what Marc did and which is what Mongoose did, and that sub-license (the OGL) is what gives anyone permission to take the Open Content portion of the Mongoose Traveller rules (namely, the Traveller System Reference Document, or SRD) and do what they like with it--even make a whole new game that looks as much like Traveller as possible.

It's not murky. It's very clear sub-licensing, and the best Aramis has come up with is this dubious claim of moral rights in foreign countries, when it's a contract law issue, not a moral rights issue. I don't see Hasbro / Wizards of the Coast suing Paizo in France over Pathfinder, despite Pathfinder knocking D&D out of the #1 RPG spot for a while. There's no there there.

The "moral rights" you speak of are legal rights in Europe, Adam. Such that Germany and France dictated a change in the Copyright treaties.... which has percolated into US law.


And, under current US law, the creator has a right, under US law, to recover his assets after 25 years, thanks to the Copyright Act. If I sell you my IP rights, after 25 years, I can legally recover them (I can notify after 25; I get them back 40 years after first publication by you, 35 if you've done nothing with them). Too bad Tolkien sold his in the 1960's... as it only affects transfers after 1978.
https://www.copyright.gov/docs/203.html
http://www.copylaw.com/new_articles/copyterm.html

Creators Rights are not mere contract law; much as you want to claim it as such - see above links.

The copyright act also makes some interesting issues for reprint of D&D materials. The Forgotten Realms is the right age and value... which might explain why Wizards is being so nice to its creator. He can yank it out from under them.

 

[Adam Dray]

You're missing my point.

Moral rights protect the author. The stuff you said about that is more or less correct.

For something like D&D / D20 SRD, the authors and the publisher are not the same, so the authors might try to reclaim their rights, which have been sub-licensed to thousands of other people under the OGL.

For something like Traveller / Traveller SRD, the author (Marc) IS the publisher who sub-licensed the rights to use the work. It's a bizarre argument to make, that Marc is somehow violating his own moral copyright by licensing other people to use his work, even if he did this using an open / viral license. No one did anything to Marc. He sub-licensed his stuff, gave another company permission to release it under OGL, and therefore he's been in control all along. His moral copyright was never violated.

Yeah, sure, 40 years after the birth of the license between them, Marc could revoke Mongoose's license, and the Traveller OGL could fall apart. We're a long way from 40 years. That's not any kind of reasonable argument for publication now. It's a red herring.

The U.S. winks and nods about moral copyrights, regardless of the treaties they've signed. France could theoretically prevent sale of something, but I think it's hardly a big worry for Cepheus Engine publishers. Another red herring.

Really, the whole moral rights thing is a giant red herring. Moral rights in, say, France cannot be waived, only licensed. Which is what everyone with stuff shared under OGL has done: licensed, not waived. The OGL protects many (but not all) moral rights by requiring attribution and preventing compatibility claims or even mention of the author's name. It also requires the licensee to actually be legally able to grant all of the licensed rights (that is, in the case that the licensee is not the author; e.g., a company licensing rights of authors who worked for them).

By "entirely legal," I mean that it is not illegal. It might be untested, but there is a strong legal position for publishers, considering 1) the intent of the owners of the copyright was to sub-license it in this way, and 2) thousands of people have been doing that for a decade, with no legal challenge. The OGL is essentially a safe harbor. Sure, someone could try to challenge it, but then the judge would ask them why they sub-licensed their work in this way in the first place without a finite term, if they were going to suddenly yank back the rights in court.

 

[ffilz]

No. It's entirely in unclear legal waters. There's been no legislation nor litigation that clears it up, either.
The existing litigation has ignored the open license issues. It's not even entirely clear for software.

I'm not sure that's entirely true, check out the various legal actions by and against SCO. Apparently they tried to claim GPL was unconstitutional...

Hmm, and here's an article from 2015:

https://opensource.com/law/16/1/top-10-open-source-legal-developments-2015

Contract law also considers the effects of the contract; there are limitations and possibilities that may render a contract invalid, such as forced transfer of IP and forfeiture of extant rights...
Plus, I know a senator interested in ending open licenses entirely.

Who is that? And good luck to them. I seriously doubt any attempt to do such would succeed, the amount of big business that is now dependent on open licenses can't be ignored.

 

[Adam Dray]

Post deleted, as it's getting political (and not in the Pulpit) and it doesn't directly discuss the license.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think this is because you are not grokking the concept of the OGL and how placing things into an SRD is granting permission of use. You are seeing this as a theft of someone's tool box when, in actuality, it is using someone's tools that they have given you.

And Cepheus doesn't use generic black covers for it's two books. So I've no clue where you have gotten that idea.

Because of this;

http://drivethrurpg.com/product/196969/The-Defiled

 

[Blue Ghost]

*snip*
If Marc didn't grant permission to Mongoose to place these rules into an SRD, then Marc has a rather serious problem that he needs to iron out with Mongoose! Again, I am not privy to Marc's relationship with Mongoose but I think it's fair to assume that he has granted permission for this to happen. The SRD has been out there for several years now.

I hope to see Marc at Travellercon in late September and hope to have a great conversation with him about all of this (assuming that I am able to be there).

All you're saying is that you don't know, which leads one to ask why you're bothering to comment. If you're okay with it, then maybe you can plan to publish "generic" scifi stuff outside your company's setting.

Personally I was hoping to see something like this, essentially official Traveller mechanics without the official background, published as per the games origins and first iteration, and with the author's (Marc Miller's) blessing so that normal Joes like me could write "real" scifi with this game mechanic in mind (because we're used to it and like it) that didn't violate the ground rules for the official Traveller setting because there would be no official setting.

 

[Independence Games]

Because of this;

http://drivethrurpg.com/product/196969/The-Defiled

That is an adventure published by Michael Brown. It is not a Cepheus Engine book. It is someone's Cepheus Engine compatible product.

There are only two Cepheus Engine books. I've been told that I am not allowed to post links to sales sites here. Go to DTRPG and type in "Samardan Press". You'll get the two CE books.

 

[Independence Games]

All you're saying is that you don't know, which leads one to ask why you're bothering to comment. If you're okay with it, then maybe you can plan to publish "generic" scifi stuff outside your company's setting.

I'm not saying I don't know about the SRD. That is, actually, the exact opposite of what I said. Let me clarify this for you:

1> Mongoose has made the SRD available for use. It is legal to use it. I know this.

2> I do not know what Marc's contract with Mongoose looks like as neither entity shares that information with me nor do I expect them to do so. However, given that the SRD exists and has been out there for years, one can assume that Marc approves of the SRD being out there. *THAT* is what I do not know.

3> Marc said to this group that he wished to encourage CE by giving us the forum which you are using to type messages into a thread to say that you're not sure if he approves. Let that sink in for a minute.

Marc wanted me to express his willingness to support the CE community at COTI.

Does that sound like the actions of a man who is upset that this exists??


That's what I said. I also wonder why I'm bothering to comment as I've now said the same thing to you in emails about a hundred times and now in this thread at least ten times. I do not know why you continue to be unable or unwilling to grasp this.

Personally I was hoping to see something like this, essentially official Traveller mechanics without the official background, published as per the games origins and first iteration, and with the author's (Marc Miller's) blessing so that normal Joes like me could write "real" scifi with this game mechanic in mind (because we're used to it and like it) that didn't violate the ground rules for the official Traveller setting because there would be no official setting.

Well, that is precisely what Cepheus Engine is. Exactly. I can't say this any other way and, honestly, I'm growing tired and irritated continuing to tell you the same thing over and over.

 

[atpollard]

That is an adventure published by Michael Brown. It is not a Cepheus Engine book. It is someone's Cepheus Engine compatible product.

There are only two Cepheus Engine books. I've been told that I am not allowed to post links to sales sites here. Go to DTRPG and type in "Samardan Press". You'll get the two CE books.

Let's see if I can get just the cover ...