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Language Skills

Chaos

SOC-12
Is there anyone else out there who finds the current Language Skill rules for d20/T20 unsatisfying?

I think it´s highly unrealistic that you can learn a language just like that and instantly become as good as a native speaker. At least, I know it took me 15 years to get a Read/Write English skill good enough to sometimes be mistaken for a native speaker, and even after all that time I still speak with a bad accent.

For that reason, have created house rules for languages.
All languages now come in four level, which I have tentatively named "Basic", "Fluent", "Educated" and "Artful".

Starting Language levels:
Native Language
Edu 01-03 none
Edu 04-07 Basic
Edu 08-11 Fluent
Edu 12-15 Educated
Edu 16+ Artful

Second/Third Language (if applicable)
Edu 01-05 none
Edu 06-11 Basic
Edu 12-17 Fluent
Edu 18+ Artful

This applies only to those language that a character starts his career with, e.g. Vilani and Galanglic for a Vilani Human character.
The minimum level for Speak Language (not Read/Write Language) is Fluent for the native language and Basic for any others.

Basic level enables a character to:
- have a conversation about very basic topics
- read most signs and simple texts such as a menu in a restaurant
- compose short written messages
(this is essentially the "tourist level" language skill)
This level gives the character a -2 to -10 penalty to skill checks that rely on the skillful use of this language (especially Entertain, Innuendo and Knowledge)

Fluent level enables a character to:
- have a conversation about most topics that are not too complicated or theoretical
- read most texts, unless they are too complicated or theoretical in nature
- write understandable texts, which are not necessarily pleasant to read (i.e. probably bad grammar and/or lack of word power)
(this is the level of a not very educated native speaker)
This level gives the character a -1 to -5 penalty to skill checks that rely on the skillful use of this language (especially Entertain, Innuendo and Knowledge)

Educated level enables the character to:
- have conversations about almost any topic
- read almost any kind of text
- write most kinds of text, in good quality
- pass for a native speaker of Fluent language skill
(this is the level of an highly educated native speaker, i.e. College level)

Artful level enables the character to:
- use a language in speaking or writing in the same manner as the best of poets and writers
- pass for a native speaker of Educated language skill
(this is the level of people like Shakespeare, Chaucer, Goethe and so on)
This level gives the character a +1 to +5 bonus to skill checks that can be aided by the artful use of a language (especially Entertain skills)


What do you think of this?
 
Greetings Chaos and a belated welcome aboard :D

Not just language skills and not only d20/T20


I have long had a problem with "instant" knowledge, going back to 1st edition (or 2nd?) D&D when after going up enough levels a character would get a new weapon or other skill and the player would pick something their character has never used, or sometimes never even seen until a week previous. All of a sudden they have perfect skill with a new weapon which just happens to be the same as the magic one they just acquired but never knew existed previously. My, how convenient.

I made it a rule that "new skills" (those which would be the next acquired) had to be declared in advance and role-played or they would be delayed, perhaps indefinitly.

It's similar to your point I think, in general.

As to specifics I like your take. I had just gone with a skill rank system for my own game, 10 for native language (free, written and spoken), 5 for other initial languages (one per Int bonus, choice of written or spoken), and buy ranks as you learn for additional languages. Native language is a class skill and all others are cross-class skills.

Then I have various DC levels for checks. DC=5 for routine communication, DC=10 for educated communication, DC=15 for complex communication and DC=20 for composition level communication. DC +5 for checks of initial languages other than native language. DC +10 for checks of other languages. DC -2 for Linguistics 5+ ranks synergy.

Similar to your system in a few ways. Some ideas there I will borrow. Thanks for sharing and giving me the incentive to post my own thoughts.
 
Personally, I think the full skill level system, as with other skills, gones a bit far for languages.
If there are skill checks for languages, I´d handle them like this - basic DC´s as you outlined, but without the modifiers for non-native language (that´s offset with lower starting skill level, and having to learn the other languages "from scratch").
The check is an Int ability check with modifiers -5 for Basic level, 0 for Fluent, +5 for Educated and +10 for Artful; Take 10 is possible unless rushed or distracted, Take 20 is possible by asking for clarification/repetition, or re-reading again and again.

Oh, two clarifications to my OP:
- the "pass for native speaker" ability naturally only applies to a character´s non-native languages
- a character can only gain one skill level per language and character level, either written or spoken (maybe both for Academics and/or Travellers)
- for related languages (like current Vilani and Old High Vilani), a character that has Educated level in one language can understand/read the related languages at Basic level (but doesn´t actually gain that level), but not speak/write them.
 
Good ideas, both of you gentlemen!

Language skills, IMTU for T20 work along these lines,

Yes, your EDU helps you here, and as per book, your INT bonus the number of languages you can know.

However fluency I base on the the number of skill points in that particular language.

Your system Mssr Chaos looks like mine in a nutshell, and as simple as I can, allow me to use your 'degrees' of skill.

one caveat--I do allow that the Traveller/Linguist FEAT adds a +2 to this.

Basic: 0-5 pts+ EDU bonus/ language.
Fluent: 6-10 pts + EDU bonus/ language
Educated:11-15 pts +EDu Bonus/ Language
Artful:16-20 pts + EDU bonus/ language.

If they [the players] want the language and the fluency, then they have to pay the points & have a decent EDU score.

That's my TU solution,
and is, my .000000125Mcr worth..

Good ideas guys! Thanks again!
 
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