Knowledge Subsets

[Frewfrux]

The rules state that GM's are free to breakdown knowledges into subsets. How would this work in terms of rolling for the knowledge on the skill tables for the careers? For example:

I am wanting to give my character skill in Behavioral Economics, a subset of psychology.

First question: Can I choose Psychology (Behavioral Economics) as my Major, and then put the skill levels towards either during my education?

Second question: When he becomes a scholar and can always choose to put skill towards his major/minor rather than rolling, can he put it towards either Psychology or Behavioral Economics?

 

[Frewfrux]

Third question: If a skill roll grants me a skill that has subsets, I can choose one of those subsets instead, right? (Otherwise how would you increase your skill in these areas?)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I would use this as a guideline?

A character who receives a Skill may always choose one of its contained Knowledges instead.

For example, Professor Unsag Vornia 9679BA specializes in the study of planets, and has achieved the maximum Planetology-6 (reflecting about six years of study). An additional year of study or experience requires specialization: (Gas Giant-1 or RadWorld-1, or StormWorld-1, or some other specialized knowledge); he focusses on Gas Giant-1. He can address most planet-related situations with Planetology-6, and a gas giant-related situation with knowledge-7.

 

[Frewfrux]

Perfect. Thanks

 

[Ulsyus]

I thought the Skills/Knowledges acquisition was handled differently.

From BBB p114:

Knowledge is the Foundation of Skill
Some skills include within them several Knowledges
(Animals, Driver, Engineer, Fighter, Flyer, Gunner, Heavy
Weapons, Language, Musician, Pilot, Seafarer).
Acquisition of these skills (except Language which is
handled differently) follows a standard pattern:
Knowledge, Knowledge, Skill.

First Receipt of Skill= Skill-0. Knowledge-1
Second Receipt of Skill= Skill-0. Knowledge-2
Third Receipt of Skill= Skill-1. Knowledge-2
Fourth Receipt of Skill= Skill-2. Knowledge-2

Exception: Knowledge acquired through Education

So in the example above, the first acquisition would result in Planetology-0 Gas Gian-1, the second would lead to Plan-0 GG-2, and the third time it was gained would provide Plan-1 GG-2. Can someone confirm this, or am I reading the wrong version of 5.09?
increases without affecting Skill

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I thought the Skills/Knowledges acquisition was handled differently.

This is not a Skill with Sub-Knowledges, it's a question about pure Knowledges with Sub-Knowledges created on the fly. See Knowledges, p114.

So in the example above, the first acquisition would result in Planetology-0 Gas Gian-1, the second would lead to Plan-0 GG-2, and the third time it was gained would provide Plan-1 GG-2. Can someone confirm this, or am I reading the wrong version of 5.09?
increases without affecting Skill

No, the Sciences are pure Knowledges (no Skill involved), but since they are limited to a maximum of level 6 we need to invent specialisations to assign additional levels to.

 

[Ulsyus]

No, the Sciences are pure Knowledges (no Skill involved), but since they are limited to a maximum of level 6 we need to invent specialisations to assign additional levels to.

Thanks, seen on p115.

That has the potential to become rather specialised. It could be great for colour, though that could lead to a PC with some skill shortages in other areas needed for survival out in the deep dark.

 

[lordmonar]

I thought the Skills/Knowledges acquisition was handled differently.

From BBB p114:


So in the example above, the first acquisition would result in Planetology-0 Gas Gian-1, the second would lead to Plan-0 GG-2, and the third time it was gained would provide Plan-1 GG-2. Can someone confirm this, or am I reading the wrong version of 5.09?
increases without affecting Skill

My question is in the KKS model of knowledge vs skill.

Mr Anderson 777777 gets skill Engineer chooses M-Drive....that gives him Engineer-0 M-Drive-1. His then gets skill engineer and choose J-drive....that gives him engineer-0, M-Drive 1, J-drive 1. Then he gets Engineer again and chooses Power Systems....does that make him Engineer-0, M-Drive-1, J-Drive-1, PowerSys-1 or does it make him Engineer 1, M-drive-1, J-Drive-1, Powersys-1 or does he have the choice at that point. He cannot choose Power Systems and must take the skill against Engineering?

 

[whulorigan]

My question is in the KKS model of knowledge vs skill.

Mr Anderson 777777 gets skill Engineer chooses M-Drive....that gives him Engineer-0 M-Drive-1. His then gets skill engineer and choose J-drive....that gives him engineer-0, M-Drive 1, J-drive 1. Then he gets Engineer again and chooses Power Systems....does that make him Engineer-0, M-Drive-1, J-Drive-1, PowerSys-1 or does it make him Engineer 1, M-drive-1, J-Drive-1, Powersys-1 or does he have the choice at that point. He cannot choose Power Systems and must take the skill against Engineering?

My understanding is that when he gets his 3rd level of engineering skill, he has the choice:

1. Engineer-0, M-Drive-1, J-Drive-1, PowerSys-1
2. Engineer 1, M-drive-1, J-Drive-1

(Unless of course the 3rd increase came thru something like an ANM School which trains you in a specific knowledge (e.g. PowerSys) and requires you to take a knowledge instead of a general skill increase (i.e. option #1 above).

My question would be, why would you NOT choose option #2 above if you have the choice? Choosing Engineer-1 for your 3rd increase gives you an additional effective level in ALL of the contained knowledges (i.e. J-Drive, M-Drive, and PowerSys, etc). - Remember, the total skill that you bring to a given task is the sum of your skill and knowledge (S+K).

 

[lordmonar]

The question is.....at what point does gaining knowledge give you a level 1 in a particular skill?


It is the question of specialization vs generalization.

Engineering 1 allows you to attempt any of the engineering tasks (JDrive, MDrive, LifeSup, PSys).

The text says right out.....if you get level 3 in a knowledge you instead opt for 1 skill inn engineering.

Does this mean that no knowledge rating can be higher than 2?

Does this mean that if you get JDrive-1, Mdrive-1 and then LifeSup...you take Eng-1 instead?

If the skill table says Engineering.....do you have to choose a knowledge or do you take the Engineering?

I understand the idea of specific knowledge builds up to the point you have a rating in the generalized skill.....I'm trying to see if there any mathematical relations ship.

Such as....each level of knowledge counts at 0.333 levels of the skill. But if this is true, when you received the third knowledge level you ALSO get a +1 to skill. But the text says you take the Skill point in lieu of the knowledge point.

Maybe I'm just making this too complicated.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Does this mean that no knowledge rating can be higher than 2?

No, Knowledges can go up to 6.

Does this mean that if you get JDrive-1, Mdrive-1 and then LifeSup...you take Eng-1 instead?

Whulorigan answered this:

My understanding is that when he gets his 3rd level of engineering skill, he has the choice:

1. Engineer-0, M-Drive-1, J-Drive-1, PowerSys-1
2. Engineer 1, M-drive-1, J-Drive-1

(Unless of course the 3rd increase came thru something like an ANM School which trains you in a specific knowledge (e.g. PowerSys) and requires you to take a knowledge instead of a general skill increase (i.e. option #1 above).

If the skill table says Engineering.....do you have to choose a knowledge or do you take the Engineering?

Education can only give knowledge, careers follow the KKSSSS... formula.

I understand the idea of specific knowledge builds up to the point you have a rating in the generalized skill...

Not really, I believe it models that first you read a few books (gain knowledge), then you start doing and gain real skill.

..I'm trying to see if there any mathematical relations ship.

Such as....each level of knowledge counts at 0.333 levels of the skill. But if this is true, when you received the third knowledge level you ALSO get a +1 to skill. But the text says you take the Skill point in lieu of the knowledge point.

No, just no...

Maybe I'm just making this too complicated.

Yes, I believe so.

It's just: Education can only give knowledge, careers follow the KKSSSS... formula.

 

[ThornPlutonius]

And, by my reading, the KKSSS... progression is per each skill that has knowledges. P. 134 implies the progression also applies for skills learned after adventuring starts.

"Some skills include within them several Knowledges
(Animals, Driver, Engineer, Fighter, Flyer, Gunner, Heavy
Weapons, Language, Musician, Pilot, Seafarer).
Acquisition of these skills (except Language which is
handled differently) uses the following sequence:

"Knowledge, Knowledge, Skill.
The character initially learns a subset of the skill (a
knowledge), then more knowledge, and finally the full skill.

"The first two instances a character receives one of
these Skills (typically in Character Generation), he instead
receives one of the Skill’s contained Knowledges. When (or
If) the character acquires the skill the third time, he receives
the Skill at level-1. Until then, he has the Knowledges but
only Skill-0 (reflecting some familiarity with the overall Skill,
but a concentration in the Knowledges)."

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And, by my reading, the KKSSS... progression is per each skill that has knowledges. P. 134 implies the progression also applies for skills learned after adventuring starts.

Yes, of course. Sorry, I was a bit sloppy.

How about:
For these skills Education can only give knowledge, subsequent gains follow the KKSSSS... formula.

 

[ThornPlutonius]

Yes, of course. Sorry, I was a bit sloppy.

How about:
For these skills Education can only give knowledge, subsequent gains follow the KKSSSS... formula.

No worries! I was trying to amplify, not correct or criticize.

 

[agorski]

Does this mean that no knowledge rating can be higher than 2?

There are ways to get knowledges only in character generation, like ANM School.

 

[Spartan159]

Technically you could max out a skill and then work on remaining knowledge's again. People making wafer chips somehow managed it LOL.

Engineering 15 Jump 6 Maneuver 6 Power Systems 6 and Life Support 6 could be yours if you focused on nothing else for what, 39 years? Less if you get enough ANM schools

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Engineering 15 Jump 6 Maneuver 6 Power Systems 6 and Life Support 6 could be yours ...

You can presumably get more specialised knowledges as per the Planetology example (T5.09, p115).

 

[lordmonar]

Okay.....got another brain bruiser.

Quote From T5.10 Book 1 Page 61 example of how NOTC is handled in pre career education

"During his College years, Eneri volunteers for NOTC and is automatically accepted. Check Edu (roll 6 or less; he rolls 6) and succeeds. He may select a skill labelled Ship Skills: he chooses Pilot."

So....isn't pilot a skill/knowledge skill? Should not the character have chosen Small Craft, ACS, or BCS?

Assuming he does not already have two Pilot Knowledges already.

I'm trying to get a handle on the KKS thing and the examples don't seem to be consistent.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So....isn't pilot a skill/knowledge skill? Should not the character have chosen Small Craft, ACS, or BCS?

Education can only give Knowledge, not Skill. So, yes, he should choose a contained Knowledge.

Flight School happens during the first term of the career, so can give Skill. The KKS rule say you must have two levels of contained Knowledge before you can take a level of skill.


So, in NOTC you choose Pilot(ACS)-1 [must take Knowledge during education]. In Flight School you gain three levels of Pilot, but since you only have a single level of Knowledge you must take another level of Knowledge, e.g. Pilot(ACS)-1 and then you can take two levels of Skill for a total of Pilot-2 Pilot(ACS)-2.

[based on T5.09]

 

[lordmonar]

Copy all.

Thanks