K'kree as a Threat

[Father Fletch]

The good Baron Saarthuran had posted a thread about K'kree=cool recently. As is common with this group of carnivores it quickly became a recipe trading board more suited to be posted here including what brand of BBQ sauce goes best with suckling K'kree.
This post is to try and brainstorm the K'kree as a credible threat to PCs for those of us gaming in the Gateway.
The K'kree have a multi sector, culturally homogeneous, modern, industrialized, Armed, and ideologically motivated empire. They do not have many compunctions against sterilizing a planet if it suits their needs. But what if they want to be subtle?
There are hints and references to K'kree in many sources of Traveller (Lords of Thunder, GT:Alien Races 2, TAM 3<?>, The new Gateway Domain book for T20, etc.) that portray some of the K'kree being capable of great subtlety, intelligence, and sophistication when it comes to dealing with G'naak out side the 2000 worlds.
Any intelligent race that can invent Jump drive is capable of learning new things. What do the K'kree know that enables them to interact and influence the course of events in human space?
A few points to consider:
1. The K'kree sponsor piracy against the Hivers on a regular basis.
2. The K'kree do have embassies on important planets of G'naak controlled empires.
3. The K'kree have been in contact with humans, hivers, vargr, and other non-K'kree races in one form or another for at least 2000 years.
4. Since the philosophical shift away from the war of G'naak extermination, the K'kree have to develop new methods of dealing with them.
5. While there is much made of the 'Herd' instinct of K'kree, they are all intelligent beings. This means capable of independent thought and action. IIRC there is no racial modifier to K'kree intelligence in the CT rules. This means that the average K'kree is as smart as the average human, and look at the crap we get up to?
6. Given that the K'kree are as intelligent as humans, they have the added advantage of cultural and political homogeneity. This means that when driven to an agreed upon goal, there is great unity of purpose in achieving that goal. The K'kree also have displayed an ability for long term goal oriented projects. They might be very willing to start a destabilization project on their borders that will not come to fruition until generations later. A K'kree noble might well plan to pass his piracy sponsorship onto his sons!
With all that said I would like to see some ideas of how K'kree might used as a threat in a game when they are not bombing a planet to glass.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Father Fletch:
[QB] The good Baron Saarthuran had posted a thread about K'kree=cool recently. As is common with this group of carnivores it quickly became a recipe trading board more suited to be posted here including what brand of BBQ sauce goes best with suckling K'kree.

Yeah, well, it's that sort of attitude by the K'Kree mockers that makes me think that some of these boards have way too much noise and not enough signal.

The K'Kree are pretty *&$%ing terrifying to me, and I wouldn't like to be making wisecracks about barbeque sauce behind their backs. As far as they're concerned, if you're a carnivore, they'll kill you - everything else about you is irrelevant. They might let you live if you changed your eating habits, but really this is a race that will not only kill but commit genocide on your entire race if they're remotely skittish about you. It's one thing to destroy a race because of their beliefs or religions (not that it's acceptable in any way, of course!), but to do it based on a race's evolution - which can hardly be helped - is entirely different!

With all that said I would like to see some ideas of how K'kree might used as a threat in a game when they are not bombing a planet to glass.

I got the impression they'd rather be doing that than anything more subtle

. But then I'm a bit out of the loop on the K'Kree, I haven't read AR3 for a while, and I read Lords of Thunder more recently than that, and the K'Kree in that seemed very keen to rain plasma death from the skies.

But if they can be more subtle than that, then I don't see how their actions could be any different to those of hostile humans.

 

[T. Foster]

K'kree barbecue jokes are IMO the absolute nadir of Traveller fandom. These guys are set up as ideal villains -- unbendingly single-minded and fanatical, frighteningly ruthless and efficient, without a trace of mercy or compromise -- and yet they're only ever mentioned by fans as the butt of lame jokes. Even when people attempt to discuss them seriously it gets immediately and permanently sidetracked (and I fully expect that by the time I've finished writing this post someone will have already chimed in with a tired bbq joke, probably a whole string of 'em -- "the k'kree are threatening again? Better get my grill warmed up, har, har, har!").

Canon doesn't treat them as jokes (they're depicted more seriously than the Sword Worlders, Solomani, or even the Vargr (not to mention TNE's dreaded Ithklur)) so how/why is it that the fan community has reduced them to a perpetual punch-line? Is the idea of intelligent herd-animals just so inherently ridiculous? Is it a 'macho' association that vegetarianism equals hippy pansydom and is thus de facto worthy only of scorn and ridicule? Personally I find it richly ironic that a value typically viewed in contemporary society as wimpy and idealistic ("cows are our friends!") serves in the OTU as the ideological basis for the most ruthlessly authoritarian, aggressively genocidal, and thoroughly fascist/totalitarian system in the entire milieu, and, rather than seeing this as an opening for lame comedy view it as assumption-questioning sf in the finest classic tradition. Congrats to Mssrs. Miller, Wiseman, Harshman, Keith and Keith for devising such a fascinatingly complex, alien, and truly frightening culture, and here's hoping that maybe we can finally get past the recycled yuks and actually engage in some serious discussion about them.

 

[Father Fletch]

Thank you TFoster for that statement. I wonder if anyone has thought about how very lethal K'kree war drones would be?
Since canon clearly states that most K'kree fighter jets are drones, and given that the trend in America is going the same way, and given that the models being test flown now are really bad-a**, I postulate that by TL12 (Average TL for K'kree in the Gateway/Solomani Rim War era) there are some High-G weapons packing evil little stealth craft causing all sorts of deniable damage on the borders with the K'kree.
Yes their ships have horrible weapon to mass ratios due to the whole 'wide open plains' mentality of ship design in the 2000 worlds, but they can launch a whole bunch of little sub craft to make up some of that. Using holodisplay interfaces the fighter 'pilots' could sit around in the mothership and blast away at relatively slow and cumbersome human or vargr fighters, which would be limited by the stress loading their pilots can take.
Perhaps due to this species necessity, they have made it a virtue. Maybe the K'kree are the best race at remote systems and organic interfaces for those systems. Maybe their communications encryption (vital to war drones being reliable) is better than the Imperium's. What if the K'kree were so good at it they routinely intercept the command frequencies for remote Imperial missiles and redirect them back at the ships that launched them? Suddenly the K'kree have negated an entire weapons paradigm and Imperial warships along the border with the 2000 Worlds mount only lasers, Fusion guns, and particle accelerators.
Any thoughts?

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

T Foster gets definite agreement from me

. I think the K'Kree are rather fascinating (from a distance, at least!), and they're definitely my favourite of the Traveller races.

I rather like the drone idea. And turning Imperial missiles back on their launchers is just darned evil.

 

[T. Foster]

My little rant out of the ways, here's some brainstormed ideas for how to make the k'kree feel more threatening.

The k'kree are pragmatic. They study the odds and will not engage in a conflict unless they have overwhelming superiority and are guaranteed to win. They'll appear to back down (which other races interpret as a sign of weakness) but actually they're just biding their time, building up their forces, and maneuvering into a superior position. When the time is right and the balance has shifted into their favor they will attack, attack ruthlessly, attack with overwhelming force, and won't stop until the enemy is not only defeated but utterly annihilated.

The k'kree are diplomatic. They realize they aren't in a position to accomplish all of their goals at once, and that they must stall for time to build their forces and gather more information. Because the k'kree are gregarious, they will interact and negotiate with other races, and are unfailingly cordial, proper, and well-behaved, but they always have an ulterior motive. They are always gathering intelligence, probing for weakness, and attempting to mislead regarding their own plans and capabilities.

The k'kree are liars. Enemies (and to a k'kree everybody who is not k'kree or a k'kree subject is an enemy) are not worthy of respect, honor, or fair-dealing, so the k'kree feel no obligation to act honorably in their dealings with them. Lies, deceipt, false oaths, false treaties, all of these are perfectly acceptable to k'kree when dealing with their enemies.

The k'kree never forgive or forget. K'kree pride means that and any slight or offense, no matter how trivial or unintentional, will be permanently remembered and marked for eventual reciporication and punishment. It may not come soon, and they may not admit it's coming at all, but when circumstances are right it will come, and the longer the delay the more exaggerated the response.

The k'kree work together. K'kree society is a completely efficient structural machine. Everybody knows their place and everybody is working towards the same goal, and that goal is k'kree domination of the universe and extermination of the g'naak. Whatever personal differences k'kree may feel towards one another, those will always be set aside when faced with an external threat -- and any interaction with non-k'kree is an external threat.

The k'kree know they're right. The k'kree will always defer to authority within the hierarchical structure of the 2KW, but they will never defer to any other authority. You will never convince a k'kree or change a k'kree's mind about anything, by persuasion or force. They are guided by an unwavering moral belief (absolute k'kree superiority in all things) and nothing anybody else says or does can make a dent in that.

The k'kree are all psychotic. They are so thoroughly ruthless and single-minded that other races fail to comprehend the true extent of their psychosis and thus tend to underestimate them -- "surely a few individuals might be that deranged, but there's no way an entire society could be." That they are so diplomatic, so pragmatic, and so duplicitous (they're always willing to talk, they swear their intentions are honorable, and they haven't made an overtly hostile act in ages) reinforces this notion and throws people off-guard. By the time the rest of the universe realizes how truly, monolithically, psychotic the k'kree are it may well be too late to do anything about it.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

I think the K'kree are a major threat, a powderkeg that might blow at any time (and from the sounds of it, it blows between 1200 and 1248 - aren't they what becomes the Dominate?).
The only way that the rest of Charted Space is ultimately going to live in peace with the K'Kree is if either the centaurs turn TOTALLY insular to the point of quarantining themselves from outside influence and destroying incoming ships... or if the K'kree are themselves totally annihilated in a gargantuan interstellar war. A middle ground seems hard to find here, given the K'kree inflexibility - anything that occurs in the meantime is just the K'Kree biding their time, waiting for the right moment. Sometime after the 3I collapses in the TNE is probably about right, assuming the K'Kree survive Virus or recover quickly enough from it.

And I bet they're just itching to wipe out every last Hiver for the little stunt they pulled in the border wars, that resulted in some K'Kree worlds turning carnivorous. That'll be a merry frenzy of xenocide right there...

This might possibly dent the suspension of disbelief here, but I'm curious about whether or not the K'Kree were based on any culture on Earth. I think there's some aspects of feudal China (the insularity and perceived superiority), Mongolia (hordes of the buggers sweeping across charted space

), and Arabia (the harems, for a start... and maybe a good dose of the fundamentalism/fanaticism (not that all Arabs are like that, of course).

 

[T. Foster]

I see in the k'kree some of the worst stereotypical aspects of Islamic fundamentalism (fanatical religious belief, holy war, total disregard for 'Rules of War,' subjugation of women) combined with a healthy dose of good ol' Nazi Germany (genocide, totalitarianism, world domination as Manifest Destiny). Imperial China is another good match which I hadn't thought of before (and, following my earlier point about people underestimating the danger of the k'kree, I'd suggest most outsiders tend to focus on the Imperial China aspects and fail to recognize the others).

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by T. Foster:
I see in the k'kree some of the worst stereotypical aspects of Islamic fundamentalism (fanatical religious belief, holy war, total disregard for 'Rules of War,' subjugation of women) combined with a healthy dose of good ol' Nazi Germany (genocide, totalitarianism, world domination as Manifest Destiny). Imperial China is another good match which I hadn't thought of before (and, following my earlier point about people underestimating the danger of the k'kree, I'd suggest most outsiders tend to focus on the Imperial China aspects and fail to recognize the others).

Not sure about the Nazi Germany aspect. The K'Kree are different in that it's not like the mindset has to be drummed into them... they're just like that from the start (I'd say the Zhodani have more of that element, perhaps). Their society isn't stable because of oppression from above, it's stable because everyone's inherently happy for it to be that way without any coersion at all (I think. I can't recall anything that says otherwise, but my memory on this is a bit fuzzy).

The K'kree are basically psychotically paranoid, and have the ability to totally eradicate anything that they consider a threat, with extreme prejudice - I don't think there are too many cultures on Earth that have been quite so bad (maybe North Korea, perhaps). Though one might argue that lately the US has been rapidly sliding down that path too .

That paranoia, as herbivores in a universe full of carnivores, is going to be incredibly difficult - if not impossible - to overcome. It's racially hardwired into the K'Kree, the only way to get over it is probably via intense re-education, Hiver manipulation, or some kind of 'transhumanist' meme among the K'Kree that encourages them to evolve beyond their genetic programming. I can't see any of that happening though.

 

[Zutroi]

Is it too late to retitle this thread? "Threat" and "Treat" differ by but a single letter...

Speaking as an herbivore myself, the K'Kree would scare the hell out me! The only race scarier are the Hivers! IIRC the canon explanation for the K'Kree's failure to overrun Human space in genocidal glee is the Hiver's application of 'Manipulation' to the K'Kree race, i.e. recreational isolation and meat sauces for foods. After the K'Kree converted the 'Manipulated' worlds into pretty glow-in-the-dark glass balls they settled down considerably.

I suspect the main weakness IS the use of drone fighter craft. Either the things need to be pre-programmed, and therefore of limited use in the chaotic atmosphere of war, or they need command and control links which are then subject to jamming and override attempts. Look at what the US contemplates as the main use of UCAVs - 'Lethal SEAD', IOW attacks against fixed or slow-to-manuever ground targets, and Navy wants to keep a man in the loop to actually fire the weapon even then.

The other disadvantage to a UKSV (Un-K'Kreed Space Vehicle) is reflected in my post at 'Attack or Defend' - namely that you can't really build the 'one hit, one kill' capability of an aircraft or UCAV into canon Traveller. While a single Exocet missile crippled and sank HMS Sheffield, the Traveller equivalent cruiser would shrug off a nuclear missile impact.

The greatest threat the K'Kree represent (at least at present) would be in the form of covert atttacks, fully deniable by the 2KWorlds, IMHO.

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Not sure about the Nazi Germany aspect. The K'Kree are different in that it's not like the mindset has to be drummed into them... they're just like that from the start (I'd say the Zhodani have more of that element, perhaps). Their society isn't stable because of oppression from above, it's stable because everyone's inherently happy for it to be that way without any coersion at all (I think. I can't recall anything that says otherwise, but my memory on this is a bit fuzzy).

You're right. Instead of Nazi Germany (the actual historical place) I suppose I should've said "Hitler's vision of the Third Reich" -- all Aryans happy in their positions supporting the State, all non-Aryans enslaved or killed. Such a system is probably contrary to fundamental human nature, but not to the k'kree -- they deliberately (instinctively?) chose a system that's strictly hierarchical and authoritarian and allows absolutely no individual freedom, but even those on the lowest rungs are perfectly happy with it, blessed to be part of the Great Herd. IIRC (and I don't have the GT k'kree book so I may be missing something) there is almost no internal dissent among the k'kree, all their anger and hatred and frustration are focused entirely outward.

 

[T. Foster]

Originally posted by Zutroi:
Speaking as an herbivore myself, the K'Kree would scare the hell out me! The only race scarier are the Hivers! IIRC the canon explanation for the K'Kree's failure to overrun Human space in genocidal glee is the Hiver's application of 'Manipulation' to the K'Kree race, i.e. recreational isolation and meat sauces for foods. After the K'Kree converted the 'Manipulated' worlds into pretty glow-in-the-dark glass balls they settled down considerably.

But did they really moderate their beliefs or did they just perform a risk-analysis that showed they needed to pull back, regroup, and rethink their long-term strategies. At least IMTU I prefer to think the latter -- they've got a long long list of scores to settle when the time is right and the Hivers are right there at #1.

I suspect the main weakness IS the use of drone fighter craft. Either the things need to be pre-programmed, and therefore of limited use in the chaotic atmosphere of war, or they need command and control links which are then subject to jamming and override attempts. <snip>

I tend to agree with this. I think in a stand up ship-to-ship fight the k'kree are at a disadvantage compared to the other races, and the k'kree know this (which is why they aren't engaging in frontal attacks anymore). Their strength in warfare lies in their dirty tricks and disregard for the Rules of War. They'll try to fool you into sending your fleet to the wrong place then jump in and slaughter all the civilians at your home base while you're away. To the k'kree, every war against g'naak is Total War.

The greatest threat the K'Kree represent (at least at present) would be in the form of covert atttacks, fully deniable by the 2KWorlds, IMHO.

The k'kree are always gathering intelligence, always probing for weaknesses, all behind a facade of diplomacy and cooperation. Humaniti's penchant for infighting (and greed for gold) work to the k'kree's advantage. They'll gladly play human factions off against each other -- either way, more g'naak die and the k'kree win. IIRC this matches the canonical account of how they conquered the Renkard Union in Lords of Thunder -- the k'kree covertly sponsored one side in a civil war, and once both sides were exhausted they moved in and took over for themselves.

 

[Redleg58]

Originally posted by T. Foster:
Canon doesn't treat them as jokes (they're depicted more seriously than the Sword Worlders, Solomani, or even the Vargr (not to mention TNE's dreaded Ithklur)) so how/why is it that the fan community has reduced them to a perpetual punch-line? Is the idea of intelligent herd-animals just so inherently ridiculous? Is it a 'macho' association that vegetarianism equals hippy pansydom and is thus de facto worthy only of scorn and ridicule? Personally I find it richly ironic that a value typically viewed in contemporary society as wimpy and idealistic ("cows are our friends!") serves in the OTU as the ideological basis for the most ruthlessly authoritarian, aggressively genocidal, and thoroughly fascist/totalitarian system in the entire milieu, and, rather than seeing this as an opening for lame comedy view it as assumption-questioning sf in the finest classic tradition. Congrats to Mssrs. Miller, Wiseman, Harshman, Keith and Keith for devising such a fascinatingly complex, alien, and truly frightening culture, and here's hoping that maybe we can finally get past the recycled yuks and actually engage in some serious discussion about them.

I've gone up against the K'kree in Striker and I can tell you a joke they are not! Although their vehicles are enormous they are dangerous and very
well armed and armored.

The K'kree infantry make up for their size by being both strong and fast as a light vehicle, with far more weapons potential than your human trooper can haul around.

More importantly if the K'kree are played correctly i.e. somewhat like a Mongol horde on the move, look out.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Dr. Gwerf here, Vargr Academic, Hijacking the Baron's Tag yet again...

As a xenobiologist, the K'Kree have (ruf) long been an interesting topic of study for me. The comparisons made between them and any human empire, past or present are doomed to fail, based solely on thier "alieness".

To me, K'Kree society seems a parable to a culture driven to militarism after being pushed to the wall by various natural (ruf) foes over the years. Such a drastic changes and apparent revolution (ruf) against biology is a hard thing for most Sophonts to get thier heads around.

An Example was from one of the JTAS mags in the eighties, an interview with a K'Kree ambassador. In it, he casually described how he and a few of his fellow Soldiers (Almost all K'Kree serve in the military at some time) came across a nursing human female with (ruf) an infant hiding in a cave. They decided it would be better to trample the mother and child, in a move to save ammunition!
Such an action, by all decent standards, is of course, an atrocity of (ruf) high magnitude, but it reflects thier mind set perfectly. We simply lack thier perspective, and they arent exactly eager to tell it.

Although I read in ancient texts of where in some places, dogs were used for food, but it isnt the same or enough to bridge the gap of understanding. I leave the (ruf) debate of wether they are good or evil for the philosophers, who, you will note, have never been prey animals on a cultural scale.

Back at Thamber University, in my sophomore year, I had the rare and good fortune to have a K'Kree language instructor (it was a huge class of four people) He was of course very negative towards me, (I am a Vargr, after all) at first, but once the cultural barrier was destroyed (it helped that I am a Vegetarian!) , I found him to be a very complex individual, at least as complex as any sophont, but with a very unique perspective of a like I have (ruf) yet to see again.

I think the persons with the jokes have never really made an effort (ruf) to know them, and have definitely not faced them in a conflict situation... I did, and it involved a lot of running on my part!

I must confess to not liking the Picture of a K'Kree in the THB too much... its kind of blah...

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Could the K'Kree develop more adaptable drones, maybe bordering on AI? (not sentient or creative per se, just able to adapt to situations on the fly). Kinda like Non-Sapient AI from Transhuman Space, if you're familiar with that?

Could be a reason why they may not be hit so hard by Virus (if that's what happened. I'm not sure it is though) - their own AI could fight of the invading AI virus?

 

[Cymew]

Baron Saarthuran,

Excellent comment! And fun!

 

[SGavorsky]

One odd-ball possibility is that after extented contact with humans especially, the K'Kree--in the process of making comparisons with their own herd-based culture in order to understand human society--might stumble upon "group mentality" ideals associated with advertising and human politics, and how they might be able to manipulate this.

Imagine if the K'Kree basically develop their own psychohistorical techniques to keep the Gateway Sector turned upon itself, either to lessen the threat to themselves or weaken it for invasion. A string of advertising/entertainment dummy corps leading back to the K'Kree ambassador, for instance...

 

[Father Fletch]

Thank you all for the serious discussion. I will certainly hijack some of these ideas for running K'kree IMTU!

 

[marginaleye]

How much do the K'kree know about genetic engineering and eugenics? For some reason, I find it very easy to envision the K'kree tinkering with their subject races to ensure that they eventually become submissive, generally slow-witted, obligate herbivores, satisfied with their place in the universe, and incapable of rebelling effectively.

This would tie in to the K'kree notion of the family as the basic unit of society quite nicely. Rebellion would be punished collectively -- the actual rebels would be executed, but all their relatives would be sterilized.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Sulpicius:
[QB] One odd-ball possibility is that after extented contact with humans especially, the K'Kree--in the process of making comparisons with their own herd-based culture in order to understand human society--might stumble upon "group mentality" ideals associated with advertising and human politics, and how they might be able to manipulate this.

What, a sort of 'K'Kree memetic invasion'? I'm not sure... I suspect anyone who practised in on the K'Kree side might be considered somewhat insane, since it involves trying to understand the neurological hardwiring that makes a predatory, possibly carnivorous mind works.

Besides, you can't get much more persuasive than 'start eating salad or we'll turn your planet's surface in to glass'

)