Ken Burnside, about your space elevator.
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
Debunked how? Seems to me that all he's saying is it ain't happening any time soon because we don't have the tech to pull it off. And, who is Ken Burnside
Ken was an individual who rubbed me raw quite often on another gaming forum, and he has, on occasion, posted here. He created a supposedly "realistic" game with three dimensional astro navigation, and a technology base that included space elevators and some kind or trebuchet deal that hurled things into orbit and beyond as a "cheap" and cost effective means of launching things from Earth.
One of his breast beating themes was the "space elevator", and how it was feasible NOW, which I disagreed with. And when I say debunk, his tech base was a near future where, like a lot of other settings, mankind has found loopholes in physics to travel to the stars and so forth.
I still think it's a pipe dream, and doable at a certain stage in technology, but like Hank Green points out, by the time we're capable of building one, we may not actually need nor want to.
One of his breast beating themes was the "space elevator", and how it was feasible NOW, which I disagreed with. And when I say debunk, his tech base was a near future where, like a lot of other settings, mankind has found loopholes in physics to travel to the stars and so forth.
I still think it's a pipe dream, and doable at a certain stage in technology, but like Hank Green points out, by the time we're capable of building one, we may not actually need nor want to.
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The problem in Traveller is that when that "darn" grav drive appears at TL 8, all sorts of really cool concepts land on the trash heap with a simple:
"Yeah, but why don't we just toss it in the back of the family pickup (aka. Air/Raft) and just fly it there?"
In my opinion, grav tech should have been saved for TL 12+ to allow for lots of interesting future things at TLs 8-11.
"Yeah, but why don't we just toss it in the back of the family pickup (aka. Air/Raft) and just fly it there?"
In my opinion, grav tech should have been saved for TL 12+ to allow for lots of interesting future things at TLs 8-11.
The problem in Traveller is that when that "darn" grav drive appears at TL 8, all sorts of really cool concepts land on the trash heap with a simple:
"Yeah, but why don't we just toss it in the back of the family pickup (aka. Air/Raft) and just fly it there?"
In my opinion, grav tech should have been saved for TL 12+ to allow for lots of interesting future things at TLs 8-11.
So some of the RPG gamers on TL-12+ worlds might well be playing Fossil-FuelPunk games.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Debunking the "elevator"?
Wind shear would deform it to the point of uselessness (Assuming, by some miracle, it didn't totally destroy it first).
Line stretch in the cable...
Torsional rotation on the cable...
MASSIVE size of winding drum and pulley...
What anchors the pulley (Space end of contraption)? It would be more akin to flying a kite. IF you had a line long, and strong, enough for the operation you'd just pull whatever was on the other end toward the earth.
The slightest change, and I mean that in the "limit theorem of calculus" definition, would start the thing into a rapidly accelerating instability.
It doesn't take physics 101 to see this is a total joke. :rofl:
We'll just leave the Tower of Babel out of it, other that an "historical" reference, from the first time man considered such a scheme.
Last but not least? Gravity is a BITCH!
Wind shear would deform it to the point of uselessness (Assuming, by some miracle, it didn't totally destroy it first).
Line stretch in the cable...
Torsional rotation on the cable...
MASSIVE size of winding drum and pulley...
What anchors the pulley (Space end of contraption)? It would be more akin to flying a kite. IF you had a line long, and strong, enough for the operation you'd just pull whatever was on the other end toward the earth.
The slightest change, and I mean that in the "limit theorem of calculus" definition, would start the thing into a rapidly accelerating instability.
It doesn't take physics 101 to see this is a total joke. :rofl:
We'll just leave the Tower of Babel out of it, other that an "historical" reference, from the first time man considered such a scheme.
Last but not least? Gravity is a BITCH!
Cynnewulf; I think space-elevators themselves are still kind of doable in Traveller. I think it actually becomes more of a "coolness" factor for the game 
But as far as us making one now? Er, I don't think so. Call me crazy.
But as far as us making one now? Er, I don't think so. Call me crazy.
Those are kind of my thoughts. I think Ken and other supporters stated that carbon-nanotubes were doable now. But, as Hank Green points out in his piece, the longest one ever manufactured was 30 centimeters long. We're a little far from making cables of the stuff, much less cables that are 34,000 to 100,000 km in length.
And, if we did have such a material, they would probably go into lighter air/space craft which would cut the cost of reaching space long before a "space elevator" could be made practical.
Having said all that, I do have an adventure write up with one of these things in mind. But, then again, it is science fiction.
Hi,
Over time I've come to view space elevators as likely never to be actually doable once you begin to take into account real world issues like factors of safety, secondary and tertiary loads, and notch strength of materials, etc.
In my experience most engineering applications that involve human safety often have a factor of safety of 6 applied to them. And, in addition, while many of the discussion that I have seen on space elevators seem to focus on the primary loads of having to deal with tension in the cable due to its own weight, in many real world applications it is often found that secondary and/or even tertiary loads may be more critical issues.
So until issues like wind shears, lightening strikes, bird strikes, localized bending due to an elevator unit moving along the cable, potential localized twisting or crushing of the cable, abrasion, cascading issues due to a potential ripping/tearing or perforation of the material, stretching/elongation of the materials under loads, and the impacts of potential deterioration of the materials due to radiation, varying atmospheric composition and/or vacuum and the like, etc are considered the whole concept of a space elevator seems to me to be more of an academic exercise than being a realistic and potentially viable engineering concept.
Over time I've come to view space elevators as likely never to be actually doable once you begin to take into account real world issues like factors of safety, secondary and tertiary loads, and notch strength of materials, etc.
In my experience most engineering applications that involve human safety often have a factor of safety of 6 applied to them. And, in addition, while many of the discussion that I have seen on space elevators seem to focus on the primary loads of having to deal with tension in the cable due to its own weight, in many real world applications it is often found that secondary and/or even tertiary loads may be more critical issues.
So until issues like wind shears, lightening strikes, bird strikes, localized bending due to an elevator unit moving along the cable, potential localized twisting or crushing of the cable, abrasion, cascading issues due to a potential ripping/tearing or perforation of the material, stretching/elongation of the materials under loads, and the impacts of potential deterioration of the materials due to radiation, varying atmospheric composition and/or vacuum and the like, etc are considered the whole concept of a space elevator seems to me to be more of an academic exercise than being a realistic and potentially viable engineering concept.
The problem in Traveller is that when that "darn" grav drive appears at TL 8, all sorts of really cool concepts land on the trash heap with a simple:
"Yeah, but why don't we just toss it in the back of the family pickup (aka. Air/Raft) and just fly it there?"
In my opinion, grav tech should have been saved for TL 12+ to allow for lots of interesting future things at TLs 8-11.
TL9 in some editions.
And note that artificial gravity is TL 10 in most editions, so even tho' gravity field drives are around for a hundred years for terrans, thrusting spacecraft had no inertial comp and perpendicular-to-thrust decks.
While I agree with many of the concerns, it should be pointed out that a circa TL 5 steel cable is adequate for a space elevator on the moon and Traveller Armor includes some materials a LOT stronger than steel.
So on Earth and right now, nope.
At TL 9 on a size 5 world, maybe.
[except for those 'darn' TL 8 air/rafts.]
So on Earth and right now, nope.
At TL 9 on a size 5 world, maybe.
[except for those 'darn' TL 8 air/rafts.]
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Again, what will you tether it to? What holds the "space end" in space?:nonono:
The hull of a retired Azhanti High Lightning cruiser, heavily modified to serve as an orbital facility?
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
It really doesn't matter what's in orbit at the other end. It's just a bigger mass to reel in.
So far, in addition to everything else, it's been overlooked that the cable has to be TWICE as long and the "counterweight" must contribute to the total load, at a minimum, DOUBLING the load.
An elevator works because there is a "tower", acting in compression, to resist the load of the upper works. Equal and opposite reaction? If I pull on a rope, it either breaks or the thing at the other end comes closer.
Tension yes, compression no. No "tower" no elevator.
You could even put the upper works on the moon (forgetting that it varies distance and rotation relative to any position on earth), and you still pull on a rope. That rope either breaks or the moon at the other end comes closer.
The space end is in orbit - a geostationary equatorial orbit. You extend cable both down and up at the same rate (to keep the center of mass at the geostationary orbital point. Tidal force will keep the cable essentially straight. Once connected, you extend/retract the outer cable as needed to keep the station on location.
A skyhook is a non-geosynch version... that doesn't hit the ground. You take your hypersonic aircraft, and fly it ahead of the "scoop" of your skyhook. As the skyhook flies past, the "scoop" grabs you and you power down. Ideally, the scoop is freewheeling as well, and you let go when it has you above the atmosphere. Requires some gear to assure that it (1) stays up and (2) doesn't slow down. But it's a better "interim" solution, and one that need not actually be in equatorial orbit.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Which means a power boost to increase the tangential velocity while a "lift" is being made. Admittedly possible, just, should most of the other technological hurdles be overcome. The impact load on that cable is sure going to be something!
I'm not seeing this ever happening either.
Vladika, I always understood that the space elevator car would work more like a vehicle that crawled up the cables or lattice or whatever it was, that verse nano-tubish cables working on it to pull it up or lower it.
I still think space-elevators are true science fiction, and that they'll never be built except by some very advanced civ, and only then as a curiosity, not as a practical structure.
I still think space-elevators are true science fiction, and that they'll never be built except by some very advanced civ, and only then as a curiosity, not as a practical structure.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Again, what holds the cable up to be pulled against?
Never mind. I saw that cartoon where the Indian snake charmer...
See? And everyone thought that Hindu/middle-eastern-animist myth as applied to practical-theoretical engineering had no purpose.
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