Keeping control of low-tech natives

[Carlobrand]

It's the accursed Federation of Arden! They're invading Caloran!!

Oh wait, aggressor pop of 700. 700? Are you serious?? 700 folk with TL8 plan to oppress a couple million TL 5 folk?

700 souls - men and women, ages ranging from infancy to elderly, can't manage to send out more than a hundred folk under arms without compromising what little infrastructure they have - maybe double that defensively if the ones under arms can do other duties between drilling. You can threaten - atomics work nicely, assuming you're not in the Imperium. You can maintain influence wherever YOU happen to be. But you can not maintain your influence when you're not around - not without a lot of local help. You can be Vikings, but you can't be oppressors unless you can persuade some portion of the local pop to assist you in that.

Tech Level 5:
Efficient internal combustion engines burning volatile liquid fuels.
Effective radio.
Electric power grid.
Early aircraft.
Improvements in metallurgy.

Tech Level 4:
Steam power based on burning wood, coal or other fuels. Power plants are too bulky and inefficient for personal travel, might be serviceable for truck-like heavy ground transport where domestic animals are unavailable or can;t be used.
Very limited electricity based on primitive batteries and low power generators.
No practical radio, or radio limited to wireless telegraphy. In the former case, ships at sea can no longer call for help.
Lighting limited to kerosene lamps, candles, gas jets and the like.
No aircraft beyond balloons, blimps and possibly dirigibles.

Fundamentally, you're asking them to give up electricity and radio; most other TL 5 to 4 changes aren't going to have the same broad impact. Question is: why? That drop is going to seriously impair the industrial base, reducing your potential profits. Potential impacts on productivity in mining and farming as well - tractors go byebye, along with electric lighting, and powered equipment depends on steam.

Why downgrade the world's tech? Why, hmmm ... try this one on. Maybe there's a Chamax situation: the local fauna avoid humans and behave normally under ordinary circumstances but are riled up by radio sources or magnetic fields. The local humans have been struggling with an increasingly hostile environment ever since they started developing TL 5 tech - and they don't know why. You arrive in the midst of an impending disaster: the locals are stretched thin trying to keep the fauna at bay, food production is critically low as farms are overwhelmed, they're on the brink of famine and collapse, and they most decidedly don't have the strength to fight you off and keep the world's beasties at bay. So, they yield to you on condition that you find some way to save them from disaster.

Which you do. Rather than landing the armies to defend them as they expect (they don't have any way of knowing your numbers unless you tell them), you deduce the problem and order them to shut down their power production and radio communications. You go out and stage a few dramatic rescues with your superior firepower, helping those who obey, allowing those who do not to meet their deserved fate, using your ship to shuttle food and supplies from place to place to stabilize the situation, and gaining the gratitude of the people as the men from the stars who saved them from extinction. They agree to pay tribute.

In amongst the struggle and chaos, you plant bugs and learn the local "lay of the land", quietly eliminating those who might be problems and building up those who are your most effective supporters. By the time the people start questioning why they're still paying tribute, you have complete control of the local government, and the local leaders are afraid to speak against you even privately among themselves for fear of disappearing or finding themselves arrested by rivals.

 

[rancke]

It's the accursed Federation of Arden! They're invading Caloran!!

Oh wait, aggressor pop of 700.

It's Atu'l and Rill in the Atu'l subsector of Corridor.

700? Are you serious?? 700 folk with TL8 plan to oppress a couple million TL 5 folk?

Maybe a lot fewer. The conquest took place around 1060, so the 700 would have many second and some third generation people among them.

700 souls - men and women, ages ranging from infancy to elderly, can't manage to send out more than a hundred folk under arms without compromising what little infrastructure they have - maybe double that defensively if the ones under arms can do other duties between drilling.

One man can hire thousands of mercenaries if he has the funds to pay for them.

Fundamentally, you're asking them to give up electricity and radio; most other TL 5 to 4 changes aren't going to have the same broad impact. Question is: why?

The meta-reason is that I think it would be easier for the Scouts to get the interdict lifted if the locals had reached TL 5. However, it is a canonical fact that they are TL4 in the Classic Era. So either they were still TL4 when the interdict was lifted or they have been reduced from TL5 to TL4. I'm exploring the second option to see if it can be made to work.

Could the in-setting reason be that it reduces the task of keeping control over the population from an unmanageable task to a manageable one?

That drop is going to seriously impair the industrial base, reducing your potential profits.

Yes, but perhaps the cost of hiring and equipping more mercenaries eats up those profits.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Have only been following this peripherally so maybe it was answered, but... how do 700 people even maintain a TL8 society?

As a possible solution, tied in with the above note that it was begun generations ago, perhaps the initial population was much higher, and a large force was sent to the subjugated world leaving a small and dwindling home guard of the elderly, infirm, and infants. Such a population could conserve their TL8 for a time but they wouldn't be a growing population. Meanwhile the overseer colonists could number several thousands and wouldn't be counted on the homeworld census.

Just a couple quick thoughts for what they're worth if anything

 

[rancke]

Have only been following this peripherally so maybe it was answered, but... how do 700 people even maintain a TL8 society?

That is a puzzler, isn't it? Yet another conundrum bequeathed to us by the world generation system.

My answer? They extract tribute from the 2.4 million people of their dependency and buy TL8 goods from somewhere. They have no manufacturing capability of their own, but they still live at TL8.


Hans

 

[Enoki]

In a historical note Cortez and Pizzaro managed to conqueror and control vast populations of Aztec and Inca with small numbers. So, it can be done...

 

[mike wightman]

Perhaps the TL8 planet transports workers to their TL8 home planet and doesn't count then in the census figures because they are natives of the TL5 world.

 

[Carlobrand]

If you were a small group of people equipped to TL 8 who had conquered a TL5 world, ...

...One man can hire thousands of mercenaries if he has the funds to pay for them.

Okay, so now it's a small group of very, very wealthy people. I sense goal lines moving. Let's see ...

Oh, mah stars 'n garters!! Atu'l subsector only has the two stars!!! Far Place 5 parsecs away through empty space in the neighboring subsector to coreward, a TL 12 world of 20 thousand which is itself four parsecs from anything else. Teriane 5 parsecs away in the subsector to spinward, a TL 9 world of 800 million. The closest world with the tech and starport to build jump-5 capable ships is Camh Ranh, a little world of a thousand souls 6 parsecs off but accessible through Teriane. No system closer but Rill itself.

So, Atu'l is hiring mercs from ... Rill?? Which means most of their mercs aren't much better armed than the Rill natives themselves, since even a very, very rich A'tul wouldn't have much in the way of industrial capacity at TL-8, not to equip an army five to ten times as big as their entire population.

Or possibly this low-pop TL 8 world has found a Merc unit on Teriane willing to travel 5 parsecs, and hired jump-5 ships big enough to transport several thousand mercs from Teriane at Cr10,000 a head - or maybe Cr1000, but it's hard to envision a jump-5 merchant liner with nothing but low berths, and it's harder to imagine a jump 5 merchant liner willing to hire itself for that kind of jump without being compensated for the empty rooms. Anyway, several millions to several tens of millions of credits to transport a merc regiment and its equipment, plus the cost of the regiment itself. Clearly A'Tul started quite wealthy before they ever embarked on this "investment".

Raises interesting questions. What is non-Imperial 5-parsecs-from-the-nearest-other-world 700-pop A'tul using as "wealth" that the local mercs would accept in barter? How does non-Imperial 5-parsecs-from-the-nearest-other-world 700-pop A'tul keep their hired guns from turning those guns on them and turning them into subjects?

Thoughts:

A merc unit from Imperial space is not going to hire out to go to a place in the literal middle of nowhere where there is absolutely no independent shipping to hire to take them home, not unless they have pretty solid guarantees of transport back to Imperial space. That same transport could be bribed to put them on A'tul, leaving them as masters of both worlds. The A'Tulians probably know better than to take that gamble.

TL 4 to 5 pop 6 millions Rill has anything from 30 to 100 battalions - ~15 thousand to 50 thousand men under arms - available for defense. They are not a pushover.

The most cost-effective way for the A'Tulians to master Rill is not with millions of credits in mercs, but by applying those millions of credits and their tech to take advantage of political circumstances on Rill itself, persuading likely local governments to do their work for them, feeding their pet governments satellite data and other useful intelligence, applying the small but advanced A'Tulian force as special forces to confuse and disorganize the enemies of their pet governments while the pet government does the heavy work, making use of a wee bit of tech to give their pet governments a battlefield advantage at key points, applying tech toward espionage to monitor their pets and ensure the right people remain in charge and remain loyal - becoming puppeteers.

As respects the stepping-back-in-tech discussion, perhaps the chosen puppet of the Atulians was some local government dominated by fanatic religious elements who had a passion to turn back the clock to "better" days and a keen interest in spreading their faith by whatever means necessary. With that kind, establishing the necessary leverage is simply a matter of playing the vying factions against each other and collecting the right blackmail information, and they'll be quite content to pay your tribute so long as you use your tech to ensure that the Faithful remain on top and the Heretics are found and punished.

In a historical note Cortez and Pizzaro managed to conqueror and control vast populations of Aztec and Inca with small numbers. So, it can be done...

As I recall, Cortez had some help from local natives who were resentful of Aztec authority, which feeds back on my statement about taking advantage of local politics. And, while both men brought down the native leadership of their respective empires, it still took the arrival of a lot more conquistadores to actually exercise control over those vast populations.

 

[Dragoner]

Pizzaro had help from local tribes as well.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Whats to stop the mercs from cutting out the puppet master and while their at it, take over that piddly 700 pop world too?

 

[Dragoner]

Whats to stop the mercs from cutting out the puppet master and while their at it, take over that piddly 700 pop world too?

That's always been the question from The Prince.

 

[rancke]

Okay, so now it's a small group of very, very wealthy people. I sense goal lines moving.

No, that was always the point of the setup. To explain what those 700 people were doing on Atu'l. Answer: getting rich by exacting tribute from Rill.

Oh, mah stars 'n garters!! Atu'l subsector only has the two stars!!! Far Place 5 parsecs away through empty space in the neighboring subsector to coreward, a TL 12 world of 20 thousand which is itself four parsecs from anything else. Teriane 5 parsecs away in the subsector to spinward, a TL 9 world of 800 million. The closest world with the tech and starport to build jump-5 capable ships is Camh Ranh, a little world of a thousand souls 6 parsecs off but accessible through Teriane. No system closer but Rill itself.

I'm thinking the Atulians are using second-hand jump-3 ships that they get maintained on Far Place. Trade further Imperium-wards is by (second-hand) jump-4 ships. Transshipment of goods on Far Place. The jump-4 ships get their maintenance at the far end of their trade route (Which I haven't decided on yet).

So, Atu'l is hiring mercs from ... Rill?? Which means most of their mercs aren't much better armed than the Rill natives themselves, since even a very, very rich A'tul wouldn't have much in the way of industrial capacity at TL-8, not to equip an army five to ten times as big as their entire population.

No, from the Imperium. Paying the mercenaries falls under the heading of overhead. It comes out of the tribute exacted from the Rills.

A merc unit from Imperial space is not going to hire out to go to a place in the literal middle of nowhere where there is absolutely no independent shipping to hire to take them home, not unless they have pretty solid guarantees of transport back to Imperial space. That same transport could be bribed to put them on A'tul, leaving them as masters of both worlds. The A'Tulians probably know better than to take that gamble.

They hire mercenaries singly and organize them themselves.

TL 4 to 5 pop 6 millions Rill has anything from 30 to 100 battalions - ~15 thousand to 50 thousand men under arms - available for defense. They are not a pushover.

60% of the population are Chirpers, so the effective population is 2.4 million.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Whats to stop the mercs from cutting out the puppet master and while their at it, take over that piddly 700 pop world too?

Transportation is controlled by the Atulians. Transporting the mercenaries in drips and draps would seem to be an obvious precaution.


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

getting rich by exacting tribute from Rill. ... ...

Paying the mercenaries falls under the heading of overhead. It comes out of the tribute exacted from the Rills.

They exact tribute with mercenaries to pay mercenaries to exact tribute..

So what, the first mercenary campaign was working on IOUs?

 

[rancke]

They exact tribute with mercenaries to pay mercenaries to exact tribute..

So what, the first mercenary campaign was working on IOUs?

The first operation was fifty years ago. Perhaps they helped one small country against another small country or did a Pizzaro on one country and worked their way up to control of the whole planet.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Yeah, right.

In a historical note Cortez and Pizzaro managed to conqueror and control vast populations of Aztec and Inca with small numbers. So, it can be done...

and that took them how much in blood and treasure to do that? And how many died from disease or worse? It was by no means easy or even a completed task.

 

[Enoki]

and that took them how much in blood and treasure to do that? And how many died from disease or worse? It was by no means easy or even a completed task.

I'm not making judgements about what they did, simply pointing out it is possible to control a huge population with a small number of people. In the Conquistidor's case, they used divisions between the various tribes against them. Both the Aztecs and Incas had lots of enemies that gladly helped the Spanish conqueror them then in turn found themselves enslaved.
Most of the financing of that came from looting the Aztecs and Inca of their wealth. Forced conversion to Catholicism, enslavement, and using native levies all followed.

Technology also played a role. If those controlling the population have very high tech and the population very low tech I could see that being used to control them.
For example, at high tech I'd think that near omnipresent automated surveillance is possible. That is, you have sensors that watch, listen, etc., virtually everyone all of the time. The system is hooked to a computer that looks for faces of the wanted, listens for people to say the wrong thing, and the controlling segiment swoops down scoops up the offender and he's never seen again. Big Brother for real. Add in a good dose of rewarding people ratting on each other and you end up with fear as control.

Not pretty. Actually pretty vile and evil but then most dictatorships are.

 

[epicenter00]

60% of the population are Chirpers, so the effective population is 2.4 million.

Chirpers makes things interesting.

Perhaps the TL8 people purchase a tailored bacteria or virus from one of those amoral high-tech worlds that the Imperium seems bursting at the seams with. This pathogen would be a harmless variant of a chirper's natural body flora so would thrive in chirper populations. However, the effect on humans would not be so benign. It wouldn't kill humans directly but would leave them debilitated and ultimately lead to death due to impairing some vital function necessary for the medium-term health of a human (think like certain forms of diabetes). There is no cure for the condition at TL8, but it can be held at bay the victim live a reasonably normal, productive life with the aid of pharms that can be manufactured at TL8.

This disease might also be natural and not introduced at all. It just lived in some remote population of Chirpers that didn't have contact with the wider populations until recently.

This disease spreads like wildfire on the human population the TL5 world, leading to evacuations, civil wars, and so on. TL5 becomes effectively untenable. It drops to TL4. The TL8 people show up, not as conquerors, but as saviors. They identify that the disease originates in Chirpers, they can also diagnose it, and can provide a cheap drug that can keep it from killing you. They also organize "control and quarantine" actions against Chirpers using large, primitive (but manufactureable at TL8) tank-mounted psionic shields and poison bait, and similar methods. It's still slow to "control" the Chirper populations but headway is being made.

The TL8 people have meanwhile worked their way into becoming a kind of aristocracy of the world. 700 people can control a world that they've "taken over" with the (at times sullen) consent of the people they've conquered. The native humans can kick around the Chirpers to salve their own egos (this is very important, as the TL8 people can manipulate the natives rage at their miserable condition by taking it out on the Chirpers).

To make matters even better, perhaps the TL8 people themselves are not wholly doing this entire operation by choice but are being coerced by some other group who have control of their world or something.

 

[Carlobrand]

...I'm thinking the Atulians are using second-hand jump-3 ships that they get maintained on Far Place. Trade further Imperium-wards is by (second-hand) jump-4 ships. Transshipment of goods on Far Place. The jump-4 ships get their maintenance at the far end of their trade route (Which I haven't decided on yet). ... They hire mercenaries singly and organize them themselves.

So, they're hiring pretty desperate men, if the men are willing to go that far into empty space for a job. Works. Stranded at the top of the pecking order on an isolated low tech world beats living in the gutter of a high tech world.

If you've got cash, you're not limited to A'Tul's TL and infrastructure - if you're going to range that far for troops, TL12 Voegrr looks like it has enough industry to supply your weapons needs, at least for infantry weapons, and it doesn't look like anyone there's inclined to ask too many questions. Men in TL 12 combat armor with helmet radios would be a sore challenge for a TL 5 world, even if you kept their weapons to slug throwers so you could have the local industry manufacture your bullets. Combat Armor needs no maintenance, the helmet radio needs very little, ACRs need none, and expendables like RAM rifle grenades shipped in from Voegrr sure won't need maintenance - and could punch through almost a meter of concrete, rendering structures and improvised barricades of limited defensive use to anyone who tried to rebel.

It's pretty bad when your opponent can drop a hand grenade at his feet and kill you without worrying too much about being hurt himself.

So, we've got a colony of rich former imperials who used their wealth and connections to settle out here and then engineer the domination of a big low-tech world too far from everything for anyone else to care? Fiendish!

...60% of the population are Chirpers, so the effective population is 2.4 million.

Okay, how does that work? I thought the pop code just dealt with Imperial citizens and sapients. I figure Droyne would count, but I thought most people considered the Chirpers to be too marginal to count as a sapient, and most people don't know the Droyne-Chirper connection. And wouldn't a psionic local with the ability to go "invisible" make the effort more difficult?

 

[rancke]

So, they're hiring pretty desperate men, if the men are willing to go that far into empty space for a job.

Or they're paying top credit. The mercenaries need be no more desperate than any historical character that took a job that would keep them away from home for years on end. Think about 18th Century whalers, for example.

If you've got cash, you're not limited to A'Tul's TL and infrastructure...

Well, yes and no. I don't think 700 people would be able to maintain a TL8 infrastructure on their own. So I postulate that they're buying their household goods from a TL8 society. And for simplicity I'm assuming that they buy their military hardware the same place.

One problem I'm having with that assumption is finding a plausible source of those TL8 goods.

So, we've got a colony of rich former imperials who used their wealth and connections to settle out here and then engineer the domination of a big low-tech world too far from everything for anyone else to care? Fiendish!

Thank you. :devil:

Okay, how does that work? I thought the pop code just dealt with Imperial citizens and sapients. I figure Droyne would count, but I thought most people considered the Chirpers to be too marginal to count as a sapient, and most people don't know the Droyne-Chirper connection. And wouldn't a psionic local with the ability to go "invisible" make the effort more difficult?

It's an after-the-fact game mechanic introduced in Regency Sourcebook designed to introduce sizable non-human population on worlds where the population level is already established (It was used to introduce such populations in the Spinward Marches). At the level of a planetary economy the mechanic works for Aslan and Vargr and even Droyne. Any one of these aliens can be assumed to have roughly the same impact on a planetary economy as a human. A world with 100-X% humans and X% Aslan or Vargr or Droyne probably have much the same GWP (and goods and passengers) as a world with 100% humans. It does not work (IMO) with Chirpers, since Chirpers are low-tech, ineffective unskilled laborers at best and useless as labor at worst. But whatever my opinion, TDG made 60% of the 6 million sophonts on Rill into Chirpers.

(Incidentally, I always thought the mechanic lacked a notation for when the minority population were human. )


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

We maintain a TL of 7 borderline 8 here on Earth using an awful lot of third world labour to manufacture goods.

How about the factories are staffed by "volunteers" from the TL4 world - yes I am suggesting something akin to slavery and/or concentration camps.

Your 700 are the "estate" owners - they look for their labour force, houshold troops etc from the TL4 world.