Just started with Cepheus. 10,000 ton freighter

[Marcatlas]

Hi all,

Just started with Cepheus Deluxe. Built what is for my setting a standard freighter used by large companies to plow their profits into to make more money. (think ships like the Edmund Fitzgerald built by a life insurance company). They pay cash for them and after 9-10 years it's profit from just moving freight. These serve routes between large worlds hauling most of the freight between such high traffic systems. Attached in the design file. I'll try to make simple deck plans for it later this week if I have time.

 

[kilemall]

Paying cash for ships is a superhighway to profits, and of course how the interstellar rich get richer.

 

[whartung]

I may be mistaking my systems, but aren't ships greater than 2,000 tons hard to get through jump or whatever they use?

 

[McPerth]

Some comments (taking into account I don't really know CE, so most my comments would be based in MgT, from which I understand it derivates):

• I guess distributed hull means means no reentry (or landing) possibilities, so it must be quite picky about which ports it may call (mostly those with highport, so those with good starports). With J1, it can hardly be so picky, so I guess it will only be useful in quite specific mains (or among a very specific group or systems, probably a small one)¹
• Fuel is 1000 tons. Assuming the fuel formula is the same as most Traveller versions, that will feed J1, but none is left for the PP. Don't CE PPs need any?
• The fuel processors are told to purify 5 tons/day. As the fuel is 1000 tons, it would take 20 days to purify it. I guess they should either be increased (and quite so) or the ship will only be able to make about 1 jump/month... Or just get rid of them and buy purified fuel...

Note 1: while the launch can mitigate this, it will take many round trips to both lower the cargo and fill the tanks

 

[Marcatlas]

Some comments (taking into account I don't really know CE, so most my comments would be based in MgT, from which I understand it derivates):

• I guess distributed hull means means no reentry (or landing) possibilities, so it must be quite picky about which ports it may call (mostly those with highport, so those with good starports). With J1, it can hardly be so picky, so I guess it will only be useful in quite specific mains (or among a very specific group or systems, probably a small one)¹
• Fuel is 1000 tons. Assuming the fuel formula is the same as most Traveller versions, that will feed J1, but none is left for the PP. Don't CE PPs need any?
• The fuel processors are told to purify 5 tons/day. As the fuel is 1000 tons, it would take 20 days to purify it. I guess they should either be increased (and quite so) or the ship will only be able to make about 1 jump/month... Or just get rid of them and buy purified fuel...

This is Cepheus Deluxe not CE. These ships only goe where there are A or B starports which all have orbital facilities. That's where there is enough freight for a ship this size anyway. Small frontier systems (with lesser ports) don't need this much tonnage so would be no point in going there. Cepheus ships don't have separate fuel for PP, It is designed with more realistic fusion plants. You refuel every annual maintenance and is part of the PP tonnage.

29 fuel processors refining 5 tons/day = 1045 tons in 7 days. For J1 + 1 it would carry enough H2O in collapsible tankage in cargo for the 2nd jump. Refined during jump. In Cepheus freight is paid by the # parsecs carried not time. So this is the most efficient means for carrying freight over 1, 2 or 3 parsecs. No need for a J2 or J3 drive & PP and the huge dedicated fuel tanks that are useless during J1 runs.

 

[Marcatlas]

I may be mistaking my systems, but aren't ships greater than 2,000 tons hard to get through jump or whatever they use?

I've played every version of "Trav" except T5 & T20 and have never encountered that rule.

 

[Spinward Flow]

With J1, it can hardly be so picky, so I guess it will only be useful in quite specific mains (or among a very specific group or systems, probably a small one)

It's actually worse than that.
You have to be on a J1 main which needs LOTS of transport capacity all the time ... in order to balance the Supply vs Demand equation that leads to profits. What that basically amounts to is that you're going to need avoid Population: 6- UWPs simply in order to circulate among worlds with economies large enough to have enough cargo lots awaiting shipment to wherever you're wanting to go next (+next/next/next if plotting multiple destinations in advance on an established route).

In order to fill the revenue tonnage of a 10k J1 starship, you're looking at having a LOT tickets to sell ... and it's better (for profits) to sell out those manifest tickets, rather than to leave (the star)port with most of the reel of tickets unbought, which then leaves revenue on the table ... while expenses (crew, overhead, etc.) remain relatively constant and still need to be paid.

Or to put it another way, you've got the issue of driving a Class-8 Commercial Vehicle (often called an 18-wheeler with trailer) down to the corner store to pick up milk, eggs and a loaf of bread ... which makes for an obvious mismatch between Need and Means. You don't "need" a tractor/trailer big rig to buy a gallon of milk, a dozen eggs and a loaf of bread. You can do it, but it's not exactly an efficient way of going about it (or words to that effect).

It's the age old "sledgehammer as flyswatter" routine.
Sure, you CAN swat flies with a sledgehammer, but it's hardly the ideal tool for that usage scenario.



So a 10k J1 starship certainly SOUNDS impressive at first blush ... but then as soon as you start trying to USE and OPERATE it at a profit, all kinds of issues are going to crop up ... with the first one being the UWP Population code number, which can be used as a proxy to determine if the 10k J1 starship is "overbuilt" to service that particular destination (or is it simply "jump over" territory to get to somewhere else?).

The next problem you have is ... can the ship be "pushed off course" by an attacker and forced into a surrender condition, which could potentially wind up with the crew being forced to disembark (permanently) and the starship confiscated as a prize?
In other words ... "at what price, security" ... which depending on the region of space that routes are intended to pass through can become a major issue (see: C-X starports and insufficient SDB patrol presence).

 

[Marcatlas]

It's actually worse than that.
You have to be on a J1 main which needs LOTS of transport capacity all the time ... in order to balance the Supply vs Demand equation that leads to profits. What that basically amounts to is that you're going to need avoid Population: 6- UWPs simply in order to circulate among worlds with economies large enough to have enough cargo lots awaiting shipment to wherever you're wanting to go next

No, that is the small ship econ. These are negotiated contracts not chance freight lying around. That's what what tramp freighters do. And no need for only J1's as the freight is paid by the parsec. So two Jumps for two parsecs pays at a rate of 2Kc per ton which is the same as 2 jump 1 trips in a month.

 

[Condottiere]

The big ticket item is engineering, so the smart thing to do is figuring out how big a jump drive you can afford, and/or monetize.

 

[infojunky]

(think ships like the Edmund Fitzgerald built by a life insurance company).

Please note the Edmond Fitzgerald was a Bulk Iron freighter, not a general cargo ship....

 

[Marcatlas]

The big ticket item is engineering, so the smart thing to do is figuring out how big a jump drive you can afford, and/or monetize.

The smaller the better in most cases. Each additional Jn added and you lose >1/8 of your cargo capacity, pay more for the drives and probably increase engineering staffing requirements.

 

[Marcatlas]

Please note the Edmond Fitzgerald was a Bulk Iron freighter, not a general cargo ship....

Not really relevant. Companies also invested in general cargo ships. I was just giving a well known example.

 

[Spinward Flow]

No, that is the small ship econ. These are negotiated contracts not chance freight lying around. That's what what tramp freighters do.

Are you sure?
Try the counterfactual then.

Your 10k ton J1 Freighter pulls up to a Population: 2 world (to illustrate the point I'm making).
What makes you think that world's economy can either pay for or "absorb" the entire contents of your cargo hold without destabilizing almost immediately?

It's not called "flooding the market" for nothing.

Non-industrialized worlds simply do not have a sufficiently diversified world economy to be able to "handle" truly massive bulk cargo imports (on the regular) in a sustainable (and profitable) way. A 10k ton J1 Freighter is intended and designed to move truly massive bulk cargo across interstellar distances. Those two facts create a mismatch that cannot be reconciled in a favorable way for the starship operator ... assuming your job is not to ship and DUMP at the destination (like a polluter exporting waste to be Somebody Else's Problem™).

 

[Marcatlas]

Yes, I'm sure Spinward Flow.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Yes, I'm sure Spinward Flow.

That's going to be quite the Cargo Cult you've got going there if you're going to be THAT sure ...

 

[Kakistocrat]

This is Cepheus Deluxe, not CE. These ships only go where there are A or B starports, which all have orbital facilities. That’s where there is enough freight for a ship this size anyway. Small frontier systems (with lesser ports) don’t need this much tonnage, so would be no point in going there.

I’m unfamiliar with Cepheus Deluxe. In CE, primary starports are generated with 2D6 − 7 + Population (with the primary starport table rolls ascending from X to A), whereas in CT, it’s a plain 2D6 roll, independent of Population (with its starport table rolls ascending from A to X), so I’d imagine that there are fewer A and B starports on low-population worlds generated in CE than in CT. Does Cepheus Deluxe use the same method of generating primary starports as CE?

 

[Marcatlas]

I’m unfamiliar with Cepheus Deluxe. In CE, primary starports are generated with 2D6 − 7 + Population (with the primary starport table rolls ascending from X to A), whereas in CT, it’s a plain 2D6 roll, independent of Population (with its starport table rolls ascending from A to X), so I’d imagine that there are fewer A and B starports on low-population worlds generated in CE than in CT. Does Cepheus Deluxe use the same method of generating primary starports as CE?

a slightly modified system from CE I believe. You don't end up with A & B ports near as much on low pop worlds as CT I know for sure. One of the rule changes in Cepheus that I had as a house rule for decades in CT

 

[infojunky]

Not really relevant. Companies also invested in general cargo ships. I was just giving a well known example.

Ok, but it was an inapt choice of example. A better choice would have be something like the SS Jeremiah O'Brien, which is a well known General Cargo ship, in pretty much the same size class.

The Edmund Fitzgerald was an iron boat, as such was un-geared, depending on the mining depot and the mill at either end of its run to load and unload. Or think of it this way you wouldn't call a Tanker a Cargo ship would you?

 

[Marcatlas]

Ok, but it was an inapt choice of example. A better choice would have be something like the SS Jeremiah O'Brien, which is a well known General Cargo ship, in pretty much the same size class.

The Edmund Fitzgerald was an iron boat, as such was un-geared, depending on the mining depot and the mill at either end of its run to load and unload. Or think of it this way you wouldn't call a Tanker a Cargo ship would you?

No, it was a good example.

 

[McPerth]

This is Cepheus Deluxe not CE. These ships only goe where there are A or B starports which all have orbital facilities.

This will limit their usefulness to very specific round trips or small clusters...

29 fuel processors refining 5 tons/day = 1045 tons in 7 days.

Then it's clear I missread it...

I'd suggest you to specify it to avoid others to do the same

In Cepheus freight is paid by the # parsecs carried not time. So this is the most efficient means for carrying freight over 1, 2 or 3 parsecs. No need for a J2 or J3 drive & PP and the huge dedicated fuel tanks that are useless during J1 runs.

Except for perishable/urgent cargoes and passengers...

Higer jumps allow you to be more picky in your ports of call, and to carry those cargoes too (probably for a premium price, mostly in speculation), while, if, as you sway, they carry collapsible tanks in their cargo space, they can use their full cargo when performing J1.

Even if freight paid per jump, and so double for 2 jumps, speculative cargo (one of the main source of income in most merchants) goes per Port of Call, and while calling every 2 or 3 jumps (as you suggest) may give you the same money for freight, it will not for speculative cargoes.

I'd also put some staterooms for passengers if they are for regular schedules, as they give you some more money per ton than freight if they are full, and if they mostly jump among decent population worlds (as they are the ones with better starposts, as I understand from your comments, they are likely to be full at most jumps.

In general, I see it a useful design for such adjacent (or even at J2, less so at J3) pairs/clusters of planets with good starports, but not so good as adventure ship.

So, a good background ship, but not the one I'd like to have with my character (personal opinion, of course, YMMV). Some staterooms might also allow (from gaming prespective) to be the scenario of an adventure itself, if something happens on it while the players are its passengers.