Jump, Hop, and the Darrians

[Nathan Brazil]

So this is T5.09.
If the Darrians have a TL 16 society and were approaching TL 17 just prior to the Maghiz....

Did they have...
Jump 7
Early Jump 8
Prototype Jump 9
Early Hop 1

 

[jcrocker]

So this is T5.09.
If the Darrians have a TL 16 society and were approaching TL 17 just prior to the Maghiz....

Did they have...
Jump 7
Early Jump 8
Prototype Jump 9
Early Hop 1

I pulled out my copy of the original "Darrians" module, and it doesn't seem that way.

There's a 'Darrian Timeline' on page 25, and it lists in the year -924, "Darrians reach TL 16. Darrian's star destabilized."

A few pages earlier it talks about how the current Darrian yards can build TL 15 ships including jump-6, but most of the time jump-3 is used.

It's implied they never got past jump-6, in that they had a handful of TL-16 ships left over from the good old pre-Maghiz days (Which doesn't exactly jive with the timeline, but hey...). Those ships were recovered in the late 300s, so they've had 700+ years to try to reverse engineer them, so you'd think if any of them had original j-7 drives, it would have been done by now.

In the separate 'Secret of the Ancients' module, the party finds an Ancient ship that is still working, maybe even still under warranty, and it could only make jump-6. True, it was mentioned that it wasn't the newest Ancient type of ship ["Do you have the new Yaskoydray-12?"], so you could argue it either way for your campaign. Maybe that was all that was possible before T5? Who knows.

edit: okay, technically there was an episode of Cirque that found an old prototype Darrian high-jump or hop-drive, but Cirque was written for T5.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

edit: okay, technically there was an episode of Cirque that found an old prototype Darrian high-jump or hop-drive, but Cirque was written for T5.

Well, this is the T5 Forum.

 

[Condottiere]

Looks like the usual way breaking through to a new tech level by building the most destructive weapon system you can imagine.

 

[mike wightman]

So this is T5.09.
If the Darrians have a TL 16 society and were approaching TL 17 just prior to the Maghiz....

Did they have...
Jump 7
Early Jump 8
Prototype Jump 9
Early Hop 1

No.

Ok longer answer.

In the retconned world of a T5 powered 1105+ setting then yes it is possible.

But at which point do we call a halt to the retconning and just flatten it and start again?

How about writing a new setting for the T5 rules that doesn't require a total retcon? Set it in the future of the OTU rather than keep introducing retcons.

 

[McPerth]

I pulled out my copy of the original "Darrians" module, and it doesn't seem that way.

There's a 'Darrian Timeline' on page 25, and it lists in the year -924, "Darrians reach TL 16. Darrian's star destabilized."

True, but in the same module, page 16 is told that at the times of the Maghiz they had reached the point where creating anti-mater for power was becoming marginally profitable, and that puts them on the verge of TL17 (as anti-mater power is TL17).

So, Nathan has a point when he says TL 16 society and were approaching TL 17.

But at which point do we call a halt to the retconning and just flatten it and start again?

How about writing a new setting for the T5 rules that doesn't require a total retcon? Set it in the future of the OTU rather than keep introducing retcons.

In fact maybe this would not be so strong a retcon...

Darrians in Golden Age are not buildeing TL 16 anymore, so it would not affect new built ships, and Little (if any) is described about their TL16 relic ships in CT:AM8 (the main Darrian sourcebook, I guess).

CT:AM8, page 24, about the TL16 ships:

At least four are reported to be mercahnt ships to which TL14 weaponry has been added.The implication is clear that TL16 ships have qualities that justify this conversion

(bold is mine)

So, it could well be that they are J7 capable (though fuel need would make it quite problematic) or even Hop Drive equiped. Sure those qualities would justify it...

 

[robject]

So this is T5.09.
If the Darrians have a TL 16 society and were approaching TL 17 just prior to the Maghiz....

Did they have...
Jump 7
Early Jump 8
Prototype Jump 9
Early Hop 1

Jump 7

They could have had functioning Jump-7 ships.

How many?

Well, design one and see: kinda tight for volume, but doable. But they need a purpose, and the Darrians were still consolidating their cluster when they blew it all up. They plainly had insufficient resources to colonize further out.

Hence, no need for many Jump-7 ships. A few exploratory scouts?

I seriously doubt a pre-Maghiz Darrian merchant ship would want or need Jump 7.


Jump 8 and 9

No more than the Imperium has working Jump 7 drives.

In research, yes, but even these drives could not do better than Jump 7. The core rules protect this much of canon.

Note that we've got classic Traveller writings that talk about all the controversy and scientific inquiry going on about what's beyond Jump 6. But no results to date... results mark a tech level change. Same goes for Jump 7, 8, 9.


Early Hop

Same goes for Hop. Notice that even the Imperium is researching higher orders of jumpspace, but we've known this (in general) since 1981, give or take.



Retcon

The potential retcon, to me, is with the TL17 air/rafts.

 

[robject]

Consider that at TL16, the Darrians could have put Collectors on their merchant ships.


"Maghiz" Trader (original name unknown)

Using a 200-ton, TL16 hull, the Maghiz Trader mounts jump drive-B, maneuver drive-A, and power plant-A, giving a performance of jump-2 and 1G acceleration. Fuel tankage supports 2 months of operations. Attached to the spacious bridge is a Computer Model/1 std. There are 14 staterooms and 8 low berths. Cargo capacity is 60 tons. The ship has a streamlined hull, with scoops, intakes, and bins for frontier refueling.

The ship has 7 crew (pilot, astrogator, medic, three engineers, and a counselor), and can carry 4 high, 4 middle, and 8 low passengers. The ship has spacious living space for passengers, and has above-average demand. The ship's counselor is required due to the lack of common space for the crew.

Trader A-BS12 "Maghiz" MCr69.6

Actual volume: 198 tons
Crew comfort: -2
Passenger demand: +1

   Tons	 Component                          	  MCr	Notes
-------	 -----------------------------------	-----	--------------------
    200	 Streamlined hull                   	   14	
      2	 Landing legs with pads             	    2	
      2	 Flotation hull                     	    2	
      4	 Plant Fuel (2 months)              	    0	2 months
      2	 Maneuver Drive-1 (A)               	    4	1 G
      4	 PowerPlant-1 (A)                   	    4	P 1
     30	 Collector-2 (B)                    	   15	2 C
      2	 Fuel Scoops with Purifier          	  1.1	100 t/hr
      2	 Fuel Intakes with Purifier         	  1.1	40 t/hr
      2	 Fuel Bins with Purifier            	  1.1	20 t/hr
   4.95	 Adv Jump Drive B (R2)              	   15	R2
      1	 Computer Model/1 std               	  1.5	
      2	 Life Support Standard              	    2	40 person-months
      1	 Life Support Luxury                	    1	10 high passengers
      2	 Counsellor                         	  0.2	
     12	 Spacious Bridge                    	  0.7	1cc 5op 0ws
      1	 2x Crew Shared Fresher             	    1	#2 4 crew
     12	 6x Crew Stateroom                  	  0.6	#6 1 crew
     60	 Cargo Hold Basic                   	    0	
      4	 8x Low Berth                       	  0.8	#8 1 passenger
    0.5	 Shared Fresher                     	  0.5	4 passengers
      8	 4x Standard Stateroom              	  0.4	#4 1 passenger
     24	 4x Luxury Stateroom                	  1.6	#4 1 passenger + fresher
     16	 4x Passenger Commons               	    0	#4

 

[robject]

Compare with the cheaper, non-Collector Jump-2 TL16 merchant:


Using a 200-ton, TL16 hull, the Trader mounts jump drive-B, maneuver drive-A, and power plant-B, giving a performance of jump-2 and 1G acceleration. Fuel tankage supports a 2 parsec jump, at 16.5t per parsec, and one month of operations. Attached to the bridge is a Computer Model/1 std. There are 13 staterooms and 4 low berths. Cargo capacity is 60 tons. The ship has a streamlined hull, with scoops, intakes, and bins for frontier refueling.

The ship has 6 crew (pilot, astrogator, medic, two engineers, and counselor), and can carry 4 high, 4 middle, and 4 low passengers.


Trader A-BS12 undefined MCr57

Actual volume: 198 tons
Crew comfort: -2
Passenger demand: +1

   Tons	 Component                          	  MCr	Notes
-------	 -----------------------------------	-----	--------------------
    200	 Streamlined hull                   	   14	
      2	 Landing legs with pads             	    2	
      2	 Flotation hull                     	    2	
     33	 Jump Fuel (2  parsecs)             	    0	2 parsec jump, at 16t per parsec
      4	 Plant Fuel (one month)             	    0	one month
      2	 Maneuver Drive-1 (A)               	    4	1 G
      7	 PowerPlant-2 (B)                   	    7	P 2
      2	 Fuel Scoops with Purifier          	  1.1	100 t/hr
      2	 Fuel Intakes with Purifier         	  1.1	40 t/hr
      2	 Fuel Bins with Purifier            	  1.1	20 t/hr
   4.95	 Adv Jump Drive B (R2)              	   15	R2
      1	 Computer Model/1 std               	  1.5	
      2	 Counsellor                         	  0.2	
      1	 Life Support Luxury                	    1	10 high passengers
     10	 Spacious Bridge                    	  0.6	1cc 4op 0ws
      2	 Life Support Long Term             	    2	40 person-months
      1	 2x Crew Shared Fresher             	    1	#2 4 crew
     10	 5x Crew Stateroom                  	  0.5	#5 1 crew
     60	 Cargo Hold Basic                   	    0	
      2	 4x Low Berth                       	  0.4	#4 1 passenger
    0.5	 Shared Fresher                     	  0.5	4 passengers
     24	 4x Luxury Stateroom                	  1.6	#4 1 passenger + fresher
      8	 4x Standard Stateroom              	  0.4	#4 1 passenger
     16	 4x Passenger Commons               	    0	#4

 

[jcrocker]

Well, this is the T5 Forum.

True. At the time of writing, nothing was written mentioning anything over j-6. Jump-6 was mentioned as if it were the maximum.

So retcon away, or lament the fact that if the Darrians had only discovered the Red MacGuffins with the Reverse Polarity, they could have been hopping for years.

 

[robject]

No, the Darrians did not have Hop drive. They lacked the technology.

They did know about Jump 7. But it was not very useful to them.

 

[Ackehece]

The best way to deal with this is to refer to the "Spectrum of Technology"

a)Tech Level assigned to a planet is an overview of their general technical and manufacturing expertise.

b) Tech level is a general not specific descriptor:
a TL15 world could have pockets of TL16 stuff (they may be more advanced in medicine or material sciences etc) conversely a planet may be less advanced in other areas

c) Technology Level indicates capability but only in directly comparable technologies.
Best Example of this is Psionics.
Consider the Zhodani and then read the following T5 Tech level abilities (and their corresponding tech levels...)

TL25 Psionic Material Technologies: move, assemble objects using psionics
TL29 Happiness - the ability to provide a mental state of well-being without necessarily supplying the physical and existential underpinnings to their society
TL27 Socioneering - The ability to tailor the structure of society to achieve specific purposes.
TL26 Implantable Ethics - the ability to define right conduct and to implant constraints on individuals.
TL24 Engineered Societies
TL28 Group Personalities



D) Outside tech levels causes rapid technological advancement
Encountering Outside Technology (pg 511)
(and this rule confuses me in T5, as it suggests that all Imperial worlds should be around TL14 or 15 within 2 generations)


E) Tech level does not necessarily map to model.

as per Agent of the Imperium (if we accept this as canon and I suspect we must )

TL 22 True Scrubbing of a Planet
done with the abilities of a TL 14 Fleet​

TL 16 True AI
Planet Sakaliin TL A
World Spanning Rogue AI
​