Jump 1 ships are pretty useless

[creativehum]

True, but as tech advanced, the muzzle loaders gave way to breach loaders, then to bolt action, then to auto loaders, etc. So my point is the TL 10/11/12 J-1 ships, would be replaced by the TL 13/14/15 J-2/3 ships as technology progressed. Plus since the Imperium seems to be average of TL 13/14 then I think that most newer ships would be designed at that tech level, rather than the lower one. Why keep building Model A Fords, when you can have Camry, or Forerunner?

Because in the usual tech paradigm of Jump drive, that Camry would be the size of a fire truck.

Moreover, while the assumption of always having the newest and the bestest tech might well make sense in the core worlds, the default assumption of Classic Traveller is that the setting is at a remote distance from the core.

I can only offer this: some people in the US might be running around in a Tesla or ridiculous Hummer 2s. But in parts of the US others are driving around with cars from 30 years ago or more. The tech is outdated, the gas inefficient. And obviously cars in other nations across the world are even older. And beyond that, some folks can't even afford cars, and even more primitive methods of travel or transpiration are used.

Again, the notion that "The most efficient method of doing things is obviously the only method" is common for some reason in Traveller-setting circles. But I honestly don't understand how people keep wrapping their brains around it. As an ideal, yes. But when I look around -- both in current events and history -- I never see things working that way.

 

[rancke]

Moreover, while the assumption of always having the newest and the bestest tech might well make sense in the core worlds, the default assumption of Classic Traveller is that the setting is at a remote distance from the core.

But not a remote distance from the nearest TL15 world. Which is one of the flaws in vanilla Traveller universes in general and the Third Imperium in particular. There's always a high-tech world around to be enough of a core world for all practical purposes.

I can only offer this: some people in the US might be running around in a Tesla or ridiculous Hummer 2s. But in parts of the US others are driving around with cars from 30 years ago or more. The tech is outdated, the gas inefficient. And obviously cars in other nations across the world are even older. And beyond that, some folks can't even afford cars, and even more primitive methods of travel or transpiration are used.

But if motorbikes were cheaper than bicycles, would you expect to see bicycles used by long-distance package delivery services? (I put the long-distance bit in to avert quibbles about bicycles being more efficient in urban areas).

Again, the notion that "The most efficient method of doing things is obviously the only method" is common for some reason in Traveller-setting circles. But I honestly don't understand how people keep wrapping their brains around it. As an ideal, yes. But when I look around -- both in current events and history -- I never see things working that way.

I don't see many ponies used to deliver mail nowadays. At one brief point in history they were the most effective means of doing so, but they were overtaken by the telegraph and the railroad.

The factor that keeps less efficient methods in use is that they have some off-setting advantage. Often that they are cheaper. If they are both less efficient and more expensive, you don't usually see them much.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

The one factor that doesn't change as you increase the TL of the jump drive (until you get way beyond Imperial TLs) is the amount of fuel you need to jump.

A TL15 built type A drive is already as small as it can be - the original TL9 prototype was probably much larger, but over time reduced in size to the standard type A. It still requires 10% of the hull as fuel per jump number it is capable of from TL9 to 15 (there is evidence that early TL9 prototype drives require as much as double this amount).

If you want performance of jump ships to increase with TL then it is the amount of fuel required that needs to change with TL.

 

[Condottiere]

Inertia may play a factor, but even the more innovative corporations might continue with older technology as long as it remains economic to do so, or as part of a sortiment that allows the customer to decide what's most suitable to their needs and budget.

Retooling production facilities seem to become increasingly expensive as you move up the tech tree.

 

[Enoff]

I suppose it really comes down to a board gaming thing. When Traveller was just an idea and the GDW staff where playing out some conscription of Imperium, it was an easy way to regulate ship/fleet capabilities. Regular fleets and cargo ships could move one hex, better ship/fleets two and the best ship/fleets three. The strangeness of it all didn't come out until it was a full blown rpg and people had created a thousand plus stars imperium.

 

[salochin999]

...
The factor that keeps less efficient methods in use is that they have some off-setting advantage. Often that they are cheaper. If they are both less efficient and more expensive, you don't usually see them much.


Hans

I thought Aramis' calcs showed the J1 were the most efficient (lowest cost per parsec per ton).

#

Either way if the engines are bigger then you lose cargo space so a higher cost per parsec per ton (lower efficiency) wouldn't necessarily make a J1 more expensive if the cpp difference is low.

example
if a 200 dtons J1 has a cpp of 510 and a 200 dtons J2 has a cpp of 500 and a trader has 100 dtons cargo then the difference is +1000 cr to the J2

but if takes 7 dtons for the J2 engines then even if selling cargo space at cost that's -3500 cr to the J2

(also if they take advantage of the J2 they lose another 20 dtons of cargo for fuel)

#

imo the advantage of a J2 in the boonie layer of space is in speculative trade because they can easier pick the trade type of the planet they jump to next i.e. they pick up electronic parts and the nearest non-industrial system is J2 away.

#

@Murph

Why keep building Model A Fords, when you can have Camry, or Forerunner?

IIRC the low-tech J1 have lower operating costs. Higher tech systems might move on to building more expensive / profitable to build ships but if there is a niche for TL10 J1 ships then a TL10 system could build them.

#

I really think it's worth running through how this might work starting at the beginning as an exercise as it jumps out at you when you do it.

1. Pick a home world
2. Say large scale colonization is only likely on the prime worlds with good atmospheres (e.g. atmos 6 for human-like)(i.e. for every voluntary colonist to a non-prime world there's 100 to a prime world)
3. Restrict to J1 at first and then see the consequences of increasing Jn

For example take Vland as the home world and look for nearby atmos 6 systems and figure the colonization sequence:

http://travellermap.com/?x=-12.436&y=62.321&scale=103.96875

example, take the trailing route from Vland to Liisurkhish passing through Shinla and Zurrian (all atmos 6)

at J1 this route would include Kipii, Uri, Ashbakha and Kagush as truck stops (refueling, repair, refresh life support, stretch legs etc)

at J2 the route could go Vland-Shinla-Zurrian-Ashbakha-Liisurkish bypassing Kipii, Uri and Kagush

J3 wouldn't change anything

J4 Ashbakha might be bypassed also.

When a system is bypassed if it was *only* a truck stop then it might become a ghost town like those western towns that developed purely as water stops for the railways but if some level of separate local economy developed while it was a truck stop then it would continue.

What this process suggest is an economy of layers. The top layer contains the important systems and whatever truck stops are needed to service the trade routes between them at the current Jn. Below that layer is the layer of old truck stop systems that were needed at lower Jn and the lower level economy that developed on those systems.

The truck stop++ systems would have to be mostly self-sufficient trading whatever they can produce for spare parts for the tech they import and serviced by the smallest, cheapest ships available (i.e. J1 Free Traders) while the top layer economy is serviced differently.

 

[kilemall]

A thought- one might consider looking again at the starship cost structure, and the J1 tech 9 ships in particular, and apply the standard 10% per tech level lower cost to buy/sell.

So if we assume an Imperial credit is in general tech 15 and we are buying tech 9 Free Traders or other J1 fare, that would be 60% off the 'list price'.

Completely changes the economics now doesn't it?

The corollary would be that a Tech 15 Free Trader would be ridiculously reliable, have the latest avionics and maybe better sensors gratis, more heavily automated with cheap robots or Ship's Robot, have highly miniaturized refining or handle unrefined fuel, maybe better chance to avoid jump failure, etc.

 

[kilemall]

Re: the truck stop point, that is EXACTLY what I am shooting for in my campaign.

Without redoing the whole description, I'm doing tech 10 Jump 1 at the dawn of Terran expansion.

The closest worlds, the Centauri system, is beyond J1 range.

So they HAVE to have refueling stations in the dark spaces in between systems, taking two jumps to even get to and from Earth.

Enter, the Oort cloud. A huge, overlooked fueling source 1/2 of the way to Alpha and Proxima Centauri, just the thing for a quick jump out there, then just a parsec to make the second jump.

That's where legendary wild places are, including the infamous Faust Vegas. And, why you can never entirely get rid of pirates.

Obviously a lot of these places will be bypassed when J2 is invented, but there will still likely be a need for J1 fuel stops out there.

So take a look, figure out what systems have oort clouds and which don't, and you might find J1 ships have a lot more range then the base game would indicate.

Then once you get out of Earth system, there is the Centauri Main, which allows the J1 ships to jump directly, but its early in the colonization process so we are talking small colonial populations. A lot more traffic going to and from Earth/Centauri then anything else.

Since the warships and high end superfreighters are J1 too, the tramp free traders are not at a disadvantage, at all.

 

[rancke]

I thought Aramis' calcs showed the J1 were the most efficient (lowest cost per parsec per ton).

I don't think so.

Either way if the engines are bigger then you lose cargo space so a higher cost per parsec per ton (lower efficiency) wouldn't necessarily make a J1 more expensive if the cpp difference is low.

The calculations take that into account. The effect comes from J1 ships having to perform two jumps to move stuff two parsecs whereas a J2 ship can do it in one jump. J2 ships can thus deliver two of its smaller loads every time the J1 ship delivers one of its bigger loads.

IIRC the low-tech J1 have lower operating costs. Higher tech systems might move on to building more expensive / profitable to build ships but if there is a niche for TL10 J1 ships then a TL10 system could build them.

A low-tech J1 ship may have lower operating costs than a high-tech J1; the rules are pretty murky on that question. Then again, it may not. Starports appear to be able to service ships of any tech levels (as opposed to being able to build them), so the two J1 ships may be able to pay its operating expenses on the same worlds.


Hans

 

[rancke]

For example take Vland as the home world and look for nearby atmos 6 systems and figure the colonization sequence:

http://travellermap.com/?x=-12.436&y=62.321&scale=103.96875

example, take the trailing route from Vland to Liisurkhish passing through Shinla and Zurrian (all atmos 6)

at J1 this route would include Kipii, Uri, Ashbakha and Kagush as truck stops (refueling, repair, refresh life support, stretch legs etc)

at J2 the route could go Vland-Shinla-Zurrian-Ashbakha-Liisurkish bypassing Kipii, Uri and Kagush

Though there would be a parallel route going Vand-Tauri-Tahaver-Ashbakha-Liisurkish.

J3 wouldn't change anything

Yes, it would. You'd have a J3 route between Vland and Zurrian bypassing Shinla and a J1 route between Vland and Shinla.

J4 Ashbakha might be bypassed also.

For passenger traffic, yes. J3 from Vland to Zurrian, transship to J4 from Zurrian to Liisurkish.

What this process suggest is an economy of layers. The top layer contains the important systems and whatever truck stops are needed to service the trade routes between them at the current Jn. Below that layer is the layer of old truck stop systems that were needed at lower Jn and the lower level economy that developed on those systems.

But once the traffic patterns shifted to take advantage of the new jump technology, the worlds that are in the right position will become part of the new pattern. The process you suggest is useful for historical analysis, but the present-day traffic pattern would be a result of present-day economic conditions.

The truck stop++ systems would have to be mostly self-sufficient trading whatever they can produce for spare parts for the tech they import and serviced by the smallest, cheapest ships available (i.e. J1 Free Traders) while the top layer economy is serviced differently.

Maybe you can demonstrate that TL9 J1 ships are cheaper across two parsecs than TL11 J2 ships. I doubt it, but I wouldn't like to rule it out without doing the numbers myself, which I can't muster the interest to do right now. But if J2 ships are cheaper across two parsecs then they will be used.


Hans

 

[kilemall]

A factor to consider in the cost calculation is crew time vs. profit and indeed ship time in general, as most ships will have to maneuver to a refuel point at a minimum and that will cost time and therefore money.

Also, is your campaign paying out per jump or per parsec.

The latter would be largely a wash for J1 vs. J2, the former would make J1 ships cost twice as much and should drive business away, even if the published mechanics do not reflect that model.

 

[salochin999]

I don't think so.

J1 ships have the lowest cost per parsec per ton

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=33584

The argument from the economic side isn't "how can you make J1 ships viable?" it's "how can you make higher Jn ships viable?"

edit:

I do it IMTU by saying the existing trade rules are for the boonie trade and having an imaginary set of inter prime system trade rules where there is a premium for size and speed which makes a high Jn ship with larger cargo holds the clear winner.

 

[salochin999]

But once the traffic patterns shifted to take advantage of the new jump technology, the worlds that are in the right position will become part of the new pattern. The process you suggest is useful for historical analysis, but the present-day traffic pattern would be a result of present-day economic conditions.

Repeating the premises used again: prime colonies = atmosphere 6.

That gives: Vland - Shinla - Zurrian - Liisurkhish. These systems remain part of the *top layer* of trade throughout on the assumption they will develop significant populations (maybe not Shinla so much as it's a desert world).

At J1 connecting these prime colonies *also* requires *additional* truck stop systems.

Now if these systems remain just as truck stop systems then if/when they get bypassed later by higher Jn they would become ghost towns (and a few of those make good scenery).

However if before higher Jn is developed those truck stop systems develop a self-sustaining economy separate from being a truck stop then even if much smaller than a prime system's economy when they get bypassed there's still a reason for a lower layer of trade connecting these systems with the prime systems.

The reason it's a separate layer is the same reason you get express trains and non express trains. The non express trains are the Free Traders.

 

[rancke]

J1 ships have the lowest cost per parsec per ton

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=33584

That is a) Book 2 designs compared to Book 2 designs, but even if you posit that HG didn't logically invalidate Book 2 designs, grandfathering clause or not, it certainly made HG designs viable too; and b) not comparing the J1 with the cheapest J2 ship.

Taking the 200T ship, the J1-TL9 version has a cost of 998 per jump, which is slightly cheaper than the J2-TL11 version. But it's less than the J2-TL12 version (1753 per jump or 877 per parsec, Cr121 less than the J1).

If you compare the J1-TL15 with the J2-TL15, you get 775 per parsec vs. 730 per parsec.

Even the cheapest J1 (2000T, TL15) is more expensive than the 2000T, TL15 J2 ship. Though it does admittedly beat the 200T J2 ships.

The argument from the economic side isn't "how can you make J1 ships viable?" but what "how can you make higher Jn ships viable?"

I was going to suggest using HG designs, but there's no need; they already are, according to Wil's numbers.


Hans

 

[salochin999]

That is a) Book 2 designs compared to Book 2 designs...


Hans

Obviously it depends on the ship design rules being used but my point is your premise is wrong.

But if motorbikes were cheaper than bicycles, would you expect to see bicycles used by long-distance package delivery services?

In this context motorbikes (higher Jn) aren't cheaper than bicycles.

 

[rancke]

Repeating the premises used again: prime colonies = atmosphere 6.

But 10,000 years later prime worlds = worlds with high-medium and high populations regardless of atmosphere.

That gives: Vland - Shinla - Zurrian - Liisurkhish. These systems remain part of the *top layer* of trade throughout on the assumption they will develop significant populations (maybe not Shinla so much as it's a desert world).

In 1105 Shinla has pop 8, Zurrian has pop 5, and Liisurkhish has pop 7 (Thomas has hidden the extended UWPs somewhere on the wiki where I can't find them, so I can't include the population multipliers, unfortunately). So in the Classic Era Shinla and Liisurkhish are the prime worlds with Zurrian not so prime at all. But the Vland-Liisurkhish trade will bypass Shinla; the Vland-Shinla trade will be separate (and all of it J1).

Now, there will be another trade route between Shinla and Liisurkhish going Shinla-Zurrian-Ashbakha-Liisurkish, but there will be little or no goods to or from Vland carried on the ships on that route.

Also, the trade between Zurrian and Ashbakha will mostly be carried on ships dedicated to freight between Zurrian and Ashbakha (either one 400T ship or two 200T ships¹, but in either case J2 ships), because ship carrying goods between Shinla and Liisurkish will have their cargo bay filled when they visit Zurrian and Ashbakha en route between Shinla and Liisurkish.

¹ Rough guesstimate based on FT figures.​

The reason it's a separate layer is the same reason you get express trains and non express trains. The non express trains are the Free Traders.

False analogy. There are no tracks between the stars. A starship can bypass intervening worlds entirely. Trade between two worlds will go by the ship that can outcompete its rivals, which means the ship that can manage the lowest rates.


Hans

 

[rancke]

In this context motorbikes (higher Jn) aren't cheaper than bicycles.

Yes they are. See my previous post.


Hans

 

[aramis]

The one factor that doesn't change as you increase the TL of the jump drive (until you get way beyond Imperial TLs) is the amount of fuel you need to jump.

A TL15 built type A drive is already as small as it can be - the original TL9 prototype was probably much larger, but over time reduced in size to the standard type A. It still requires 10% of the hull as fuel per jump number it is capable of from TL9 to 15 (there is evidence that early TL9 prototype drives require as much as double this amount).

If you want performance of jump ships to increase with TL then it is the amount of fuel required that needs to change with TL.

T5 alters that paradigm.

 

[salochin999]

@Rancke

I'm ignoring you.

#

A real world analogy might be railways across the US.

Say you want a route: New York - Chicago - LA but at the current level of technology you need water stops every 100 miles or so then you'd get a little train stop every 100 miles or so initially just to service the trains.

But because there's a rail stop some people fetch up there and turn it into a town. The trade volume of these towns is dwarfed by the trade volume between the main stops New York - Chicago - LA but it's not non-zero.

If/when tech develops such that the trains don't need a water stop then the trains between the three main stops no longer need to stop at the small towns along the route but because those towns' trade volume has become non-zero in the interim there is now a demand for trains to stop separate from the original reason.

The compromise is express trains between the three main stops and slow trains which stop at the little towns.

The Traveller analogy here would be larger, higher Jn ships as the equivalent of the express trains and smaller, J1 Free Traders as the equivalent of the slow trains.

#

Obviously this isn't as clear cut in a setting like the OTU Spinward Marches because there isn't just one layer of civilization; there's multiple layers of Ancients, various collapses and pocket empire stages, Vilani and Imperium so the prime system and truck stop system dichotomy may have happened multiple times and over lapped however that again becomes the source of good scenery.

example: system that was an Ancients truck stop then a pocket empire home world some time after the Ancients collapse then nuked then a Vilani truck stop then a pocket empire home world again after the Vilani collapse then conquered to become a prime system in somebody else's pocket empire then nuked again and now finally an Imperial truck stop system.

The key thing is the idea of a truck stop system i.e. not all colonies need to have a purpose as a colony so they don't need a cool back story - all they need is a gas/petrol pump and a dude with a screwdriver and spare tyres.

 

[mike wightman]

T5 alters that paradigm.

Please note this is a CT discussion - not a T5 or MT paradigm shifting discussion.