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Jingoistic/ Self-righteous RC

L

Liam Devlin

SOC-14 5K
Okay, I'll stab another time, see what bites. We hear a lot on this (and other boards of Traveler, namely the other "guys" of TML, Tne-silenttower), but mostly here, that ya'll (bein in the South I can get away with that word)thought the RC sphere of things too jingoistic/ self righteous, etc.
I had may own way of dealing with it, I'd love to hear yours, or your convictions/reasons why it felt like a straitjacket cookie cutter plot line.
Hey, flame all ye want--No skin off me, just don't get booted off by the moderators.
Lurkers...(I'm #1087, lookee how many have joined since 03 SEP 02!) c'mon in. Drp yer .02 credits worth.
I enjoy good arguments. I'm open, and the teflon is on. Fire away lads (lady, if LisaGB is hereabouts!) ;)
 
MJD, there be times I feel like one of the prophets in th wilderness. ;)
Nahhhhhhhhh. I gues I'll just keep fishing a while longer....I know there's opinions out there somewhere...seen em on another list talking about differing versions of Trav.
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Okay, I'll stab another time, see what bites. We hear a lot on this (and other boards of Traveler, namely the other "guys" of TML, Tne-silenttower), but mostly here, that ya'll (bein in the South I can get away with that word)thought the RC sphere of things too jingoistic/ self righteous, etc.
I had may own way of dealing with it, I'd love to hear yours, or your convictions/reasons why it felt like a straitjacket cookie cutter plot line.
Hey, flame all ye want--No skin off me, just don't get booted off by the moderators.
Lurkers...(I'm #1087, lookee how many have joined since 03 SEP 02!) c'mon in. Drp yer .02 credits worth.
I enjoy good arguments. I'm open, and the teflon is on. Fire away lads (lady, if LisaGB is hereabouts!) ;)
Click to expand...
To be absolutely fair, I can only really comment on the TNE rule book (which I read at the time, and only bought cheap via eBay recently) and FF&S 1 and Smash and grab (which I bought recently). I'd loved CT, and whilst MT got me rather lost at times, consolidating the CT variants seemed OK, although I wasn't wild on the Rebellion story line because it seemed a little too incoherent. Arrival Vengeance I loved (possible it suited my mood at the time) and I was very excited when I first heard about T:TNE. The idea, the original concept, of something that would capture the epic sweep of the Imperium but not as it stagnated or fell, but at a new dawn. That was cool.

(Note: I also loved the concept of T4, but I HATE that 1/2 die!)(But then, the Traveller echoes of the initial voice over to Andromeda still affects me, and mostly I think Andromeda's twaddle, so go figure...)

Then I read the Traveller: The new Era rulebook. On rational grounds, I (and my then playing group) loathed the GDW house system (I still prefer DGP or 2300) so that was a big strike aginst it. And the self-righteous arrogance of the Reformation Coalition (or was it Dave Nielsen?) seemed to leap of every page at me: "what went before was bankrupt and wrong, and we can set it right with a big gun and a bad attitude". Having re-read the rulebook recently, it's clear that part of that perception on my part stemmed simply from a nostalgia for CT, because it is quite clear that the RCES etc are transient things (although the wiff of "They were great but lilly-livered liberals after the fact will rubish their memories and claim there wrong when they were right" was tiresome). It is also true that, just as for many gamers 2300 as a game was marred by GDW's obsession with the Kafer War, the New Era rulebook was obsessed with the miltary aspects of the setting and that at some fundemental level the highly agressive RCES approch was right in some wider moral sense.

I might well have enjoyed the Regency Stuff (the whole "We Keep the Flame" thing from Arrival Vengeance etc was hugely dramatic and affecting) but the damage was done in the original rulebook.

I basically made my excuses and left at this point, briefly looking in when T4 raised it's head, stumbled into that f**king 1/2 dice and a lot of recycled Foss artwork and left again (in the process ditching most of my RPG stuff). A couple of years (god, nearly three) ago I got back into RG's, started rebuilding my collection etc.

Now, having re-read T:TNE and a couple of the supplements, I still don't like the writing style, the tone that I still infer as the one the designers expected the game to be played with, or the inferrance that most of what had gone before needed to be junked (both of which I still think are valid inferences from the text, even if they are not the INTENDED implications).

I look forward to what Martin's going to do to take the storyline forward with great interest. I doubt I'd ever run a game in TNE (certainly not with the GDW house rules) and if I did, it would probably be in a variant universe. Covert agents trying to protect the peaceful symbiotic human-virus civilisation hidden behind the Black Curtain (an RCES propaganda name) spring to mind, probably somewhat influenced by Ian Banks Culture Novels (subjecting the RCES to a close encounter with Special Circumstances is an entertaining fantasy...), or something else that turns the moral and politcal assumptions I disliked in the original on their heads (Hmm, the Dawn League was trashed because actually they were a bunch of Sophont slavers and the RCES are knocking over TED's is steal their technology... nah, still not my style).

Leaving aside the emotive issues, I think GDW made the fatal miistake of getting caught up in the idiocy promulgated by Witless W**kers, ahem, sorry, White Wolf that RPG books were some sort of substitute novel. They aren't. They are reference books to help people run games, so they should be written as reference books (concise, informative, readable), not novels. Too much of TNE was flavour text deluding itself to think it was reference material, and the rest of the reference material seemed to be weapons stats ;) .

This is a failing that MANY games fell in to (most of White Wolf, lots of D&D as far as I can tell) at the time. If Dave Nielsen et al wanted to write novels, they should have done so. Fiction set it the Traveller universe is a great idea (to date, the best thing QLI have done IMO is publish TA1, Martin's collection of short fiction, and provide a home for the TNE short fiction), but it's separate entity to reference material.

Enough, I'm rambling and whilst T:TNE is my least favourite version of Traveller, I'm not one of those who wants to see it expunged from cannon (even though Virus makes me wince in a way that thruster plates, black globes etc never did) and I'm really looking forward to see where Martin takes the timeline.

Lie long and prostrate... :D
 
"Enough, I'm rambling and whilst T:TNE is my least favourite version of Traveller, I'm not one of those who wants to see it expunged from cannon (even though Virus makes me wince in a way that thruster plates, black globes etc never did) and I'm really looking forward to see where Martin takes the timeline."

Amen Brother!
 
Gallowglass wrote-". And the self-righteous arrogance of the Reformation Coalition (or was it Dave Nielsen?) seemed to leap of every page at me: "what went before was bankrupt and wrong, and we can set it right with a big gun and a bad attitude".
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Agreed. And I believe this invalidation process that DN took wasn't the brightets idea to come down the RPG pike in a while. Not to mention the above attitude (BG&BA philosphy) was hyprocritical after the Final War. "We who have the guns & starships make the rules."
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"Having re-read the rulebook recently, it's clear that part of that perception on my part stemmed simply from a nostalgia for CT, because it is quite clear that the RCES etc are transient things (although the wiff of "They were great but lilly-livered liberals after the fact will rubbish their memories and claim there wrong when they were right" was tiresome)."
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Thanks for your honesty, Gallowglass. Yeppurs, the post-period commentary smacked me of an in house way to stack the deck versus revisionism (which as a historian in RL, I found particularly revolting).
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The TNE setting however had its faults (i personally liked the art work of the MT/ HT era). But I was willing to give it a go. The more I read into it (PoT, Vampire Fleets, Smash N Grab, etc.) the more I became convinced that the heavy-emphasis of "rob thy neighbor's tech" (if he's not using it the way YOU would)probably helped coin the phrase "Star Viking" (which is in itself an oxymoron. Viking, as any one of Norse ethnicity on these boards can tell you, and a few scholars) is a verb, not a noun.
So...I set upon placing NPC's from the previous era with a different take on things into the milieu for the gamers. My first set in TNE 93-96)arrived via Rebellion-Hard Times playing, one of two ships from Nail Mssion (I saw no reason to gamble all in one TJ-6 liner/courier, had I the driver's seat of Archduke Norris).
Whilst the RC was making political hay of the viewpoints of these "survivors" as eyewitnesses to the horrors of the Final war, the ganmers themselves would not invalidate the "good stuff" about the antebellum period. Nor could I, as GM/ player myself of these CT & MT eras deny what had gone before.
So, the DN-GDW party-line got lost in the shuffle of my campaigns, or was ignored. I also revived much of what had been abandoned--
Starships, TL-9 to TL-7 insystem spacecraft, Hard Times modified widgets that aided folks along.
when Star Vikings NPCs came out, I got it. Gear heading is one thing, its the people in the dramtis personae that fascinated me.
My version of Solee is deemed "heretical" in several senses, I re-use the LASH system (lighter-aboard Ship), and then on the same hand, the Battle rider concept as well (for SDB's). Using the PoT against itself, for example, Solee had in 001-1201 a jump capbale fleet of 6 major warships, 20 smaller ones. yet by their manning/ maintenance rule that was less than they should have had. When I worked the numbers out, three times as many vessels should have been present. Obviously these were system-bound ships (no jump drives, monitors, SDBs): or 17 & 51.
Looking to the RC, they had a plethora of vessels, and subcraft. But the Imperium and Solomani Confederation had many types of vessels, why were so few remaining of these various types?
So I took to converting using HG & MT ships from my OTU library and various resources on line
and using the FF&S to "flesh" these out .

Like MJD's e-fiction, my players reached burn out on the S&G missions real quick. Two of them hit upon the idea of specializing in Cold-relic recovery (as opposed to "hot" getting shot by the natives). With the advent of SNAKE, Anti Virus weapon from Sufren, this became more than a possibility, it was a way to defeat the AI-Virus boojum created to destroy the Last version of Traveller's Universe, and sweep aside the tangled aftermath of the Final war plot.

Then GDW's financial problems hit, and we were left, in our version of the collapse. I watched and read boards as the survivors gathered together, or hurled their dice at walls and said "Never again!"

I shall not speak of T-4, because this is a version I didn't purchase. GT swept all away as a "bad dream" by Prince Varian, and that was the last I saw of that. Sorry boys, and lady. I was not going to invalidate all those memories, and games, etc poured into the creative muse within the frame work that had gone on before. Not me.
Now GT has some neat ships, which I liberally supplied into my campaign ("resource mining") from sites available to me. ANd the "Start all over again" wasn't gonna wash (or whitewash) the bad taste from my mouth.

So rather than abandon RPG gaming altogether, and Traveller, I bent it to MY will, my vision, rather than surrender to that which caused many of us anger, and give up. Anyone else?

FTR(for the record); I have been on the "team" somewhat in suport of MJD's vision of the future.
Black, with lots of gray. More roles for the players to cast their fates, than as such "dictated" to by previous authors of this RPG. And as such, have sent him all the Solee-RC stuff I cobbled together.
 
tne - hmmh.

Yeah the rules are a right pain. I am still a classic traveller rule player (well the expanded version all 8 books) and I could stand the task system for MT - liked the DGP stuff.

I grew up with classic traveller, megatraveller was okay, I could take the break up, but was a bit sad they did not make more out of some of the factions - Brazzk, Norris, Daibei, And knightfall was rubbish. Hardtimes was drastic, but now I am playing TNE it fits in better.

The vilification of the 3rd Imperium is a bit OTT, they did lots of good - no slavery, limited piracy etc. Not bad when it takes a year for the orders to reach the border.

Now with TNE, I bought it when it came out but did not really get into it, but now, it seems to have grown on me

As for the TNE believers it seems to be currently split with those who have very few ships and those with larger numbers of relics left (Liam - thats you). But if the vampires can keep massive imperial vessels operational with no maintenance for 70 years why not human worlds.

Too much SAGs can be a pain and are a bit 1D, They grow tired after a few missions.

MJDs fiction looks good, and I look forward to the Pheonix novel. Liams stuff is damn good, someone needs to flesh out things like the Solee war or the invasion of promise.

I hope MJDs stuff will flesh out some of the missing TNE stuff, and stuff on the regency (like most people I have a soft spot for the Marches)

Anyway enough rambling

Cheers
Richard
 
One of the most compelling aspects of the Traveller universe is its history. Very few other games go to the coniderable lengths the original designers, their sucessors, and fans have gone to in chronicling the events of a fictional universe. Our appreciation for history comes from our sense of narrative, which is in turn informed by our understanding of causality. Traveller players usually revel in the history, which, through their characters, becomes THIER narrative or story. The glacial perfection of the Ziru Sirka; the triumph and tragedy of the Rule of Man; the howling wilderness of the Long Night; the might of Third Imperium and the sickening, noble waste of its potential: this is the universe, this is the story of the player characters, just as rife with fury, contradiction and nobility as the characters themselves.
The RC and its attitudes represent a strain of revisionist history: their attempts to villify the Imperium are so forceful, so exaggerated, and so hypocritical in light of THEIR activities that a long-time player of Traveller cannot help but feel offended. Offended because the RC claims the history, the narrative, that the players have shared in is a lie, and that THEY represent the way, the truth and the life. The RC and their attitudes toward the Third Imperium would be much more palatable if they were presented merely as one of many possible outlooks; however, the TNE rulebook and supplements themselves, Challenge editorials and published TNE novels all, represent what are merely attitudes as actual facts. TNE for the most part told the players their previous experiences with the game were flawed becasue they participated in the reality of a flawed universe.
Does this make the RC uninteresting? No. Does it make a Star Viking campaign unplayable? No. It simply means the reader/GM/player must take the RC with several grains of salt. Our appreciation of a text arises out of our resistance it it, which makes the reading experience our own. By resisting some of the more over-the-top assumptions inherent in the RC worldview, you can end up with a VERY interesting campaign: Liam's material in particular brings us a wealth of well thought out information on Solee AND the RC.
I guess I could of taken up a lot less space by simply saying I feel the treatment of the RC goes against the spirit of Traveller, but what fun would that have been?
 
RichardP wrote
"I grew up with classic traveller, megatraveller was okay, I could take the break up, but was a bit sad they did not make more out of some of the factions - Brazzk, Norris, Daibei, And knightfall was rubbish. Hardtimes was drastic, but now I am playing TNE it fits in better.
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Like DGP, GDW spent too much time jumping about, instead of staying on a steady theme, I feel, and this contributed to the "factionalization" we see. Too much to do, too little detail in critical spots led to "a collapse " that the war brought about. perhaps the authors didn't know themselves when they opened pandora's box where it would all lead. Gannon's work of HT outlined at least a ray of light at the end of the tunnel.
TNE closed it off for another 70 odd years with Virus. -liam
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"The vilification of the 3rd Imperium is a bit OTT, they did lots of good - no slavery, limited piracy etc. Not bad when it takes a year for the orders to reach the border.

Now with TNE, I bought it when it came out but did not really get into it, but now, it seems to have grown on me

As for the TNE believers it seems to be currently split with those who have very few ships and those with larger numbers of relics left (Liam - thats you). But if the vampires can keep massive imperial vessels operational with no maintenance for 70 years why not human worlds.
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Kind of you to say so, Richard. Thank you. Thats why I claim to be Heretic in Chief.
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Too much SAGs can be a pain and are a bit 1D, They grow tired after a few missions.
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MJDs fiction looks good, and I look forward to the Pheonix novel. Liams stuff is damn good, someone needs to flesh out things like the Solee war or the invasion of promise."
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I'll see if MJD wants it for supplemental booklets for T-20. It'd be nice to be published for a change, eh?
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Arsulon wrote-
"One of the most compelling aspects of the Traveller universe is its history. Very few other games go to the coniderable lengths the original designers, their sucessors, and fans have gone to in chronicling the events of a fictional universe. Our appreciation for history comes from our sense of narrative, which is in turn informed by our understanding of causality. Traveller players usually revel in the history, which, through their characters, becomes THIER narrative or story. The glacial perfection of the Ziru Sirka; the triumph and tragedy of the Rule of Man; the howling wilderness of the Long Night; the might of Third Imperium and the sickening, noble waste of its potential: this is the universe, this is the story of the player characters, just as rife with fury, contradiction and nobility as the characters themselves."
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well said, Arsulon, well said.
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"The RC and its attitudes represent a strain of revisionist history: their attempts to villify the Imperium are so forceful, so exaggerated, and so hypocritical in light of THEIR activities that a long-time player of Traveller cannot help but feel offended. Offended because the RC claims the history, the narrative, that the players have shared in is a lie, and that THEY represent the way, the truth and the life. The RC and their attitudes toward the Third Imperium would be much more palatable if they were presented merely as one of many possible outlooks; however, the TNE rulebook and supplements themselves, Challenge editorials and published TNE novels all, represent what are merely attitudes as actual facts. TNE for the most part told the players their previous experiences with the game were flawed becasue they participated in the reality of a flawed universe."
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The sweeping attitude of invalidation has caused many a passionate CT-MT player to 'skip" TNE and leap into GT to avoid the mess left by this, rather than "accept all as "fait d'accompli". I fall into this category. Just as CT and to some extent Mt allowed us freedom of movement, it was still "OUR" Traveller Universe at the table. Giving in to the anger was surrendering our ability to think, and was a loss of our personal control of willpower. The Game rules were a frame work, I felt, not the iron-bound maxims of dogma.
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"Does this make the RC uninteresting? No. Does it make a Star Viking campaign unplayable? No. It simply means the reader/GM/player must take the RC with several grains of salt. Our appreciation of a text arises out of our resistance it it, which makes the reading experience our own. By resisting some of the more over-the-top assumptions inherent in the RC worldview, you can end up with a VERY interesting campaign: Liam's material in particular brings us a wealth of well thought out information on Solee AND the RC.

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Precisely, Arsulon, my feelings on this. If we simply applied ourselves to what was written and did no interpretation, then yes, TNE is flawed as all get out. MJD likewise has applied the same manner of thought to all of this, and is driving forward with it.
Thank you for the kind words on the Solee-RC stuff. If this makes me "a believer" of TNE, so be it. I rather think though of myself as a believer in the human spirit of indomitability, the will to adapt, overcome, and survive (as Gannon demonstarted in "Hard Times").

To my detractors, tis easier to criticize than create. PAX SOLEE!
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Moo Moo Moo, Secret Cow Level, I know yer out there. What's yer take on this topic?
Click to expand...
OK, I'll bite!


A lot of people hate how self righteous the RC is, but to me that makes sense. When you go out into what used to be Disapora Sector and see ruined worlds and shattered civilizations all around you, it becomes easy to think that the people who fought for the right to sit on the Imperial throne were morally bankrupt. To some one who grew up on a planet that 70 years eariler had far more advanced technology and was part of a large, properous galatic civilization, Lucan and Dulinor would not be seen as people who cherished the Imperium. Rather, they would be seen as power hungry despots who would rather throw the Imperium away than let somebody else rule it.

As for the RC's tatics, the bottom line is that much of what they need to rebuild galatic society is on the worlds of the Wilds, usually in the hands of despots using it to enslave their own people or else technophobes who want to destroy it because it is "evil". The quickest way to get this technology where it will do the most good is by "liberating" it with a smash and grab. Many question the morality of this type of behavior and they should. I don't think that GDW intended for TNE's players to blindly accept everything that the RC did as morally right but rather wanted each player or referee to make their own judgements and put their own spin on things. The flavor text is just that. It's meant to show you how the people in this time and place think and act. I never felt that I was required to run my campaign exactly that way, but it seems that many people who have a problem with the RC felt that GDW was dictaiting to them how they should think and play TRAVELLER. While I don't think TNE is perfect, I did like that Dave Nilsen tried to make the setting more dynamic. Considering how much many of TRAVELLER's players dislike his methods and wrtiting style, I'd have to agree maybe he should have taken a different approch, but I certainly don't fault him for trying.

Wow, this post is much longer than I intended! Sorry about that! I'll let people digest this for a while. I look forward to hearing other people's thoughts on this subject.
 
Yeah, if you were in diaspora during the rebellion / hard times / collapse you would forget about the good that the Imperium did in its past and concetrate on the current problems. Lucan and his black war, solomani racial tensions, Margarets concerns on economics rather than people, and Dulinor's self rightousness would not win many supporters.

With the loss of civilisation, and records, things sink bask to oral histories, which further amplify peoples characters.

Yeah the RC would use the tactics it had to, and at least is not using weapons of mass destruction unlike good old solee, but yes they will be self rightous, compared to their distorted histories of the Imperium and the TEDs out in the screaming wilds, they are saints.

But we as players and refeeres know from past experience that the Imperium was not a hideous despotic state, they did a lot of good (peace, free trade, no slavery, stomping in multi world empires, stopping the worst excesses of the coorporations). But the RC etc has forgotten most of this and only see the worst of the wilds.

Eventually the Hivers will spill the beans about what really happened or the RC will find out (from the personnal records of the faction leaders, talking to the regency etc.) How this will affect their world view - well they seem to have disappeared by 1250ish.

Cheers
Richard
 
Secret Cow level-
You are correect from the "viewpoint" of the RC as they "see" the wilds about them. GDW tries to do some revsionism in the sense of certain Post period historian annals looking back say in NE 144 that the "Star Vikings" were products of their times.
Many who see/ saw the TNE RC era as a "snapshot" in time follow this line of thinking. For those in the MT era where Virus dumped all to hell and gone, at least in defense of TNE, the player's actions/ adventures had a chance to set the future/ change courses of events on benighted worlds/ make a difference. Whereas before, it seemed no matter what good you did, the Rebellion got worse, things fell apart, and some regions of the former Imperium were waiting the final death knell.
Mr Nilsens's faults aside, set the stage for five years before GDW deep sixed herself.
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". I don't think that GDW intended for TNE's players to blindly accept everything that the RC did as morally right but rather wanted each player or referee to make their own judgements and put their own spin on things. The flavor text is just that. It's meant to show you how the people in this time and place think and act. I never felt that I was required to run my campaign exactly that way, but it seems that many people who have a problem with the RC felt that GDW was dictaiting to them how they should think and play TRAVELLER.
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Therein lies the rub, SCL.The old equation of perception equating to reality. Perhaps we all read the same thing, but we all took away from it quite another.
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RichardP wrote-"Yeah, if you were in diaspora during the rebellion / hard times / collapse you would forget about the good that the Imperium did in its past and concentrate on the current problems. Lucan and his black war, solomani racial tensions, Margarets concerns on economics rather than people, and Dulinor's self rightousness would not win many supporters.
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And in the historical narrative that DN/GDW wrote, this was acceptable form of thought and speech to those of the RC. Especially in light of the latter end of the Rebellion & Black War strikes.
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"With the loss of civilisation, and records, things sink bask to oral histories, which further amplify peoples characters.

Yeah the RC would use the tactics it had to, and at least is not using weapons of mass destruction unlike good old solee, but yes they will be self rightous, compared to their distorted histories of the Imperium and the TEDs out in the screaming wilds, they are saints. "
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well, I do like to have a contrast between the RC and Solee. The willingness to use asteroids, and small tactical nukes to overcome planetary "quagmires" doesn't win you freinds planetside, but it does get the SSE's "point across" in their pursuit of "empire with heavy handed gunboat diplomacy, imtu.
And in fairness to MTU Solee, they are following their warped version of Margaret's reintegration of Wilds worlds. Where it got sticky was when their Rebellion era remnant Navy typoes got frisky with the orbital tactics of "bombardment into submission".

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But we as players and refeeres know from past experience that the Imperium was not a hideous despotic state, they did a lot of good (peace, free trade, no slavery, stomping in multi world empires, stopping the worst excesses of the coorporations). But the RC etc has forgotten most of this and only see the worst of the wilds.'
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Which is the plot dichotomy I liked to portray to the players of my campaigns. Antebellum Imperium was a great place. Okay, it was stagnant in a few social economic areas, personal freedoms, but no one lived in slavery anyways. And if you could afford it (1000cr. low berth passage), you could immigrate elsewheres.
As it said in Hard Times, when the Imperium turned its back on the people, they in turn turned their backs on it.
 
Well, I have a problem with the RC's politicized revision of history (such revisions are often employed by totalitarian states to maintain a monopoly on interpretation); HOWEVER, that said, WHY does the RC think the way it does? WHY does it embrace that bleating, hypocritical flake Kuligan? WHY is it so hard on the so-called remnants, imputing murderous tendencies to them because of the age they lived in?
Because they're children suffering from abandonment. Let's face it: virtually the entire Old Expanses sector used to belong to the Solomani. Then they get pounded by the Imperium. Just as most of the population is getting used to being part of the Third Imperium, the Civil War breaks out and Admiral Hinchcliffe orders the sector fleet off to Ilelish. They struggle, but with pro-Solomani insurgency and only the thin defensive veneer of the Reserve Fleet and System Defense, they eventually surrender. THEN the lights go out. Where's Daddy? Oh, there he is, and he looks like a big starfish: maybe he'll tell us what to do.
There it is. The citizens of the RC are descended from chronic losers: they've been passed around more often than a doobie in a dorm room.
A particularly harsh assessment might be that they're descended from traitors: those subsectors are awfully close to the Confederation and one wonders how hard the RC worlds fought when the Solomani showed up. Old Expanses did SURRENDER after all: they weren't conquered.
So why shouldn't they hate the Imperium? Why shouldn't they start start over with a new dating system, like say, the Khymer Rouge? Why shouldn't they vilify every poor damn, dumb Imperial they crack out of the freezer for their technical knowledge? These kids just didn't know any better. Broken homes and all, don't you know. That's why they come across as such a Micky Mouse organization with thier colourful outfits, slang, violence and baby-names for each other: they didn't get proper parenting and so, to belong to something, to create a surrogate family, they did what lots of kids in a similar predicament do... they joined a gang. You're on Star Viking turf, man!
 
Heh, heh, now we're talkin'. I agree with just about everything posted above, but can't help wondering how much of it was a deliberate set-up by Devious Dave. We know how fond he was of narrative twists and reversals, and his noble theories of pedagocial purpose -- "by examining these fictional constructs we learn lessons that can be applied to our own lives," etc. etc. (note: made-up statement in Nilsenian mode, not an actual quote). Therefore, I'm sure that after years of idealizing their motives and actions, he was eventually going to pull the rug out from under RCES. We already see hints in the historical quotes in the TNE rulebook, and I just know he was salivating in anticipation of the great cathartic revelation that would come to all the RCES PCs when they realize that their "heroics" are little better than the villains they defeated, and now that they've "won" they don't get to stick around to enjoy the peace, but instead are doomed to wander forever between the winds like Ethan Edwards.

Not that I in any way approve of such a strategy -- in fact it strikes me as incredibly arrogant and presumptuous and pretty much antithetical to what I want from an rpg*-- but I do think we should credit Dave not only for recognizing the fundamental contradictions within the RCES philosophy, but, in fact, for creating and nurturing them deliberately.

*Presumably influenced by his peers at White Wolf, IMO Dave Nilsen failed to properly differentiate the experiential entertainment dynamic between novels and rpgs. Players in an rpg are not an audience for the GM (much less the game-designer!) spinning a story, they are active partcipants in a communal creative exercise, and to deny that organic relationship is to defeat the purpose of playing such a game in the first place. If you wanna write stories, fine -- write stories. But don't then try to tell me they're rpgs.
 
Arsulon wrote-"WHY does the RC think the way it does? WHY does it embrace that bleating, hypocritical flake Kuligan? WHY is it so hard on the so-called remnants, imputing murderous tendencies to them because of the age they lived in?
Because they're children suffering from abandonment. Let's face it: virtually the entire Old Expanses sector used to belong to the Solomani. Then they get pounded by the Imperium. Just as most of the population is getting used to being part of the Third Imperium, the Civil War breaks out and Admiral Hinchcliffe orders the sector fleet off to Ilelish. They struggle, but with pro-Solomani insurgency and only the thin defensive veneer of the Reserve Fleet and System Defense, they eventually surrender. THEN the lights go out. Where's Daddy? Oh, there he is, and he looks like a big starfish: maybe he'll tell us what to do.
There it is. The citizens of the RC are descended from chronic losers: they've been passed around more often than a doobie in a dorm room. "
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I like your analogy! This is great stuff, Arsulon, really good. Glad to see serious discussion on this topic besides flames on "I hated the rulebook, so there!" This is the stuff I'm looking for. In truth, working within canon, Most but not all of the OE worlds surrendered. I made an exception in the PoT of Mueller, as a feisty planet that resisted, was defeated, and had its ships jump drives dismantled by the advancing SOlomani out of respect (And they didnae want to be followed!)remember too, The 1st Rim war wasn't that long ago (990's), less than 200 years when the SC Navy crossed over the border in 1117. So alot of what you argue makes as much sense as my views of Solee & the RC sliding towards war.
Imtu, the way DN with the Kuligaan line of thought prevailing viewed all things Imperial as "Lucanic" (definitely not true, and remnants that didn't "toe the line" politically got lesser jobs, blacklisted (I use my Martin Francis Rourke character as a prime example, of someone tough enough to "buck the system" but has to work within it (And didnae get the good job at the Hiver tech Institute on Aubaine, and had to settle for a regular History Prof job on Aubaine, without tenure.), constantly proving to others former Imperial doesn't mean "evil Final war adherent".
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Also said"So why shouldn't they hate the Imperium? Why shouldn't they start start over with a new dating system, like say, the Khymer Rouge? Why shouldn't they vilify every poor damn, dumb Imperial they crack out of the freezer for their technical knowledge? These kids just didn't know any better. Broken homes and all, don't you know. That's why they come across as such a Micky Mouse organization with thier colourful outfits, slang, violence and baby-names for each other: they didn't get proper parenting and so, to belong to something, to create a surrogate family, they did what lots of kids in a similar predicament do... they joined a gang. You're on Star Viking turf, man!"
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"And Mr Starfish-face will lead us to reason.."if I may misquote Led Zepplin briefly. That's their major problem, reinventing themselves, trying to cast a "kinder-gentler version" towards the stars. But as with MJD and myself, idealism melts in the face of barbarity, and you wind up committing the same things the former Imperium did to pacify regions under their wings. Imagine the shock in store for the "Star Vikings' when they learn the truth at last...NOW that'll be a Kodak moment!
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Mr T. Foster said..
"*Presumably influenced by his peers at White Wolf, IMO Dave Nilsen failed to properly differentiate the experiential entertainment dynamic between novels and rpgs. Players in an rpg are not an audience for the GM (much less the game-designer!) spinning a story, they are active partcipants in a communal creative exercise, and to deny that organic relationship is to defeat the purpose of playing such a game in the first place. If you wanna write stories, fine -- write stories. But don't then try to tell me they're rpgs."
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Precisely the point of many players and GM's turn-offs. AN RPG is not a novel, nor is a novel an RPG. Well said, Mr Foster! Succint & to the point.
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Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
GT swept all away as a "bad dream" by Prince Varian, and that was the last I saw of that. Sorry boys, and lady. I was not going to invalidate all those memories, and games, etc poured into the creative muse within the frame work that had gone on before. Not me.
Click to expand...
GT made use of an SF concept that I'm quite fond of: the parallel universe. Those memories and games were not invalidated; they were relegated to a different universe. (Indeed, if I could come up with a decent plot I'd love to write an adventure that involved a group of characters from one universe visiting the other. Alas, so far I've been unable to think of something suitable).

If anything, GT did less violence to what had gone before than MT and TNE did. Don't forget that the Rebellion brought an abrupt end to the Classic Era. How many campaigns were forced either to change radically or deviate from the OTU? I was less than thrilled by the Rebellion, but at least I could still glean information of a continued Classic Era campaign from some of its supplements. I could take a description of things as they were in 1120 and extrapolate what the same place would be like in a more peaceful universe. I could take a character writeup and figure out what that character would be doing in a universe without the Rebellion. But the New Era really shafted anyone who wanted to keep up a CT campaign (or an MT campaign for that matter). By fast-forwarding the storyline 70 or 80 years, every NPC and society description was invalidated. At least with GT you can take a description of an NPC and use your imagination to figure out what he would be doing in the OTU.

In a very real sense GT merely reversed the previous invalidations that MT and TNE imposed on CT campaigns rather than invalidating anything itself.

Hans
 
Rancke-said,"GT made use of an SF concept that I'm quite fond of: the parallel universe. Those memories and games were not invalidated; they were relegated to a different universe. (Indeed, if I could come up with a decent plot I'd love to write an adventure that involved a group of characters from one universe visiting the other. Alas, so far I've been unable to think of something suitable).'
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I've seen it done Rancke it can be done! Best one I recall was a misjump (bad one too). GM apparently uses it to bring 'across" ship & players" from other campaigns (save its almost 99.9% one way). its Traveller, but in an alternate universe...and the players are really up a creek when hey find out that fact, or meet folks who they thought they knew, but don't remember them...!
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also-"If anything, GT did less violence to what had gone before than MT and TNE did. Don't forget that the Rebellion brought an abrupt end to the Classic Era. How many campaigns were forced either to change radically or deviate from the OTU? I was less than thrilled by the Rebellion, but at least I could still glean information of a continued Classic Era campaign from some of its supplements. I could take a description of things as they were in 1120 and extrapolate what the same place would be like in a more peaceful universe. I could take a character writeup and figure out what that character would be doing in a universe without the Rebellion. But the New Era really shafted anyone who wanted to keep up a CT campaign (or an MT campaign for that matter). By fast-forwarding the storyline 70 or 80 years, every NPC and society description was invalidated. At least with GT you can take a description of an NPC and use your imagination to figure out what he would be doing in the OTU.'
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Hans (may I call you that?) the very reason I saw GT as invalidation was its scrubbing of the MT era entirely, as well as the Hard Times post war era (really a continuation of events more than an "era"), and TNE. "Hiya folks, we turned back the clock, it was dream, fergit about it." I'll allow you your perception, because I can see that point well enough from your perspective. In reality, GT probably was the first time one could turn the clock backwards, as opposed to forwards like TNE did, in OTU.
But it boils down to a scrubbing is a scrubbing.turning the clock in reverse invalidates those of us wanting to keep the momentum going in our direction. I wanted the history as MJD & crew are doing to keep going. Hey, in realpolitik, the world changes, so must Traveller, I admit it.
But I want to thank you for your honesty and having the fortitude to reply. Your points are well thought out, and sound. Btw, we're hosting the winston shoot match here in central Arkansas, hope Denmark's team does as well as they did last year!
 
You can run a CT era campaign using any set of rules, including TNE. All you have to do is set it in 1105 (or whenever you'd like) and play. You don't have to use Virus or the Rebellion or even the Fifth Frontier War. Heck you don't even need to use the OTU. Any TRAVELLER rules set can be used to play a great game of TRAVELLER using any setting you prefer. Nobody should ever feel straight jacketed into a certain mind set just because the published material goes in a direction they don't like. It's your game, play it the way you want.
 
SCL-said,"You can run a CT era campaign using any set of rules, including TNE. All you have to do is set it in 1105 (or whenever you'd like) and play. You don't have to use Virus or the Rebellion or even the Fifth Frontier War. Heck you don't even need to use the OTU. Any TRAVELLER rules set can be used to play a great game of TRAVELLER using any setting you prefer. Nobody should ever feel straight jacketed into a certain mind set just because the published material goes in a direction they don't like. It's your game, play it the way you want. "
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There are several examples of CT-my-way"campaigns on the www.downport.com sub-site of Freelance Traveller. I highly recommend them for people who are either fed up( or were fed up) with the "advances" Traveller made, or as a resource for ideas and such. I liked the series of articles that dealt with Cost Efficiency (or CE) for merchan craft based on tonnage hauled. This led to several variants on the standard ships into "stretched" hulls. imtu, though it be TNE, I use this principle, especially if ships are scarce, and a C-class port and sustainable tech is around to make those tiny ships bring n the bucks needed to keep em going, pay off the mortgage, etc. Otherwise, you're small firms are destined to for bankruptcy when the least trouble arises.
Playing "your own version" has been deemed by the many somewhat "heretical". by the canon crowd. Mr Antony Farrell and his Banners campaign site is an example of this, but better still, his version of the Solomani Rim sector in the Swan Kingdom campaign. All that prevents a GM from doing this is time, details, research, and an imagination fired by the will to say, I am not deterred."
Good answers Secret Cow. Thank you!
 
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