Jack-O-Trades and Leader skills -- useful or useless?

[Enoki]

I think JoaT depends on how you allow it to be used. MT pretty much gutted it with the allows a re-roll thing. The CT version was probably too open to abuse.

The way I prefer to use it is the character is allowed a skill level of 0 in a situation calling for a particular skill they don't otherwise have. The level of the task at hand using that skill is set one higher than normal (this is the usual but can be modified to be the same as usual, or even two higher if what's being attempted is very complex or normally would require lots and lots of training and knowledge to do).
This shows they're resourceful and a quick learner.
If the character were to have JoaT 2, then the task level is left at the usual one for what's being accomplished with a skill level of 0. That is JoaT never gives you more than a skill level of 0.
It has nothing to do with skills you already possess.

I would also allow it to be used as a modifier for a cascade skill as that skill -1. For example, with weapons. The character has say ACR 2. That allows the character with a JoaT skill to use similar weapons in other categories at level 1. Again, it is consistent with being more resourceful and a quick learner.

That means having a level of JoaT is very handy, but having anything beyond that is not going to gain you much more. At the same time, it could definitely help when you need even a slim chance at accomplishing something critical and lack the skills to really do the job. You could get lucky...

With the Leader skill that particular player / character has an advantage in getting the party to follow their direction. In situations where there is a difference of opinion among party members on what to do, where to go, how to accomplish something, the character with leader skills gets to treat their suggestion as a task and it gets rolled on. If they succeed, the party is assumed to agree to their suggestion as the "leader" has persuaded them to follow him. Simple enough.

 

[Whipsnade]

In fact, in LBB1, JOT is a more common skill than Pilot, as it's present in more careers and skill tables and does not require EDU 8+ to be rolled (Pilot appears only in advanced education tables, and only for Navy, Scouts and Merchants)

In CT'81 Pilot is also a rank/service skill. Scouts get it automatically upon enlistment and Merchants get when/if they make 1st Officer (Rank 4).

I don't remember whether that was the case in CT'77 though.

The frequency of J-o-T in the Scout skill tables certainly points to Adam Reith in Jack Vance's Planet of Adventure being an inspiration.

 

[creativehum]

The CT version was probably too open to abuse.

Could you talk more about this? I think I get conceptually how it could be abused."

But in terms of an actual event at a gaming table I can't see an actual, specific, real example. I would live to hear more.

 

[creativehum]

In CT'81 Pilot is also a rank/service skill. Scouts get it automatically upon enlistment and Merchants get when/if they make 1st Officer (Rank 4).

I don't remember whether that was the case in CT'77 though.

The frequency of J-o-T in the Scout skill tables certainly points to Adam Reith in Jack Vance's Planet of Adventure being an inspiration.

Rank and Service Skills are the same in '77 and '81 editions.

And agreed about Scouts/Planet of Adventure books.

 

[Kadur]

I agree with all S4 had to offer.
So, I can see the reasoning that JoT beyond 1 is "useless." But the rules don't state this. Another interpretation might be that the character with JoT-2 or -3 has a wider latitude in which situations he might be able to have effect.

I thought about these useless ranks a few months ago and made a house rule: For each point in JoT after the first one, the player can define a skill himself and put the point in that.

Also, thank you for your awesome blog! It made me roll up a subsector and waste way too much time in the archives of these forums.

 

[Enoki]

Could you talk more about this? I think I get conceptually how it could be abused."

But in terms of an actual event at a gaming table I can't see an actual, specific, real example. I would live to hear more.

Depending on how you wanted to play it, in CT a JoaT skill level of 2 gave a character a skill level of 1 in everything. JoaT was defined as being usable as a skill in something -1 so JoaT 2 in essence gave you a skill level of 1 in any skill. It could also boost existing skills.
That's far, far too powerful. It allows a player to simply get two skill levels in JoaT and they're set. Now they have a skill level of 1 in anything and everything. Worse, if allowed to continue to accumulate you'd get skill levels of 2 or 3 in everything.

MT reversed that making JoaT basically useless. I suspect an over reaction to the earlier overkill the skill allowed.

So, I struck a balance. JoaT allows you some ability at anything. You can muddle your way through many situations without having an actual skill in something. But, the downside is you're also likely to fail as much or more than succeed (ie., your solution was half#$$ed and came back to bite you). But, for more routine tasks you'd probably be able to do something where someone without that skill couldn't.
For example, you're on a backwards planet and the vehicle you've "acquired" requires somebody to know how to drive it. The player with a JoaT skill gives the character a 0 level skill in this and he manages to get it moving and under control. So long as some crisis doesn't come up driving it he's managing to drive without failure.
JoaT is made useful in that sense.
On the other hand, your spaceship is under attack and the pilot just got taken out. The JoaT skill player attempts to take over without any actual piloting skills... Your party is still likely totally screwed as the JoaT skill character probably won't manage to pilot the ship successfully. (ie., a pilot skill of 0 with the task difficulty increased by 1 or 2).

 

[mike wightman]

Depending on how you wanted to play it, in CT a JoaT skill level of 2 gave a character a skill level of 1 in everything. JoaT was defined as being usable as a skill in something -1 so JoaT 2 in essence gave you a skill level of 1 in any skill. It could also boost existing skills.

That is your house rule, not the skill as written in the book. Here is what it actually says in the book, '81 edition:

This skill is a general ability which may be applied to nearly any endeavor at the discretion of the referee. The jack of all trades can attempt activity which is not normally possible due to the absence of skills or expertise. Unskilled people have no idea how to even start many projects; jack of all trades can apply this skill to such a project as if he or she has the skill. Jack of all trades can be considered to confer
skill level 0 in every other skill (but never level-1).
For example: one of a group of adventurers arrives at an aging crisis (page 8) while on an
expedition into the wilds of a unsettled planet. No one has medical expertise. Jack of all
trades can be applied as a substitute for medical skill in this situation; the referee should assume that the person has studied independently at some time or has seen such a crisis previously and knows something of what to do. When using jack of all trades skill, the referee should also consider appropriate personal characteristics (intelligence, education), availability of equipment (drugs, medical instruments), and other factors (weather, shelter, the specific situation).
Jack of all trades, however, is never sufficient for an individual to achieve standing in
another skill. Use of the skill in medical situations does not imply medic skill. Use of the skill to
pilot a ship in an emergency does not imply pilot skill.

That's far, far too powerful. It allows a player to simply get two skill levels in JoaT and they're set. Now they have a skill level of 1 in anything and everything. Worse, if allowed to continue to accumulate you'd get skill levels of 2 or 3 in everything.

Not by the rules as written.

So, I struck a balance. JoaT allows you some ability at anything. You can muddle your way through many situations without having an actual skill in something. But, the downside is you're also likely to fail as much or more than succeed (ie., your solution was half#$$ed and came back to bite you). But, for more routine tasks you'd probably be able to do something where someone without that skill couldn't.
For example, you're on a backwards planet and the vehicle you've "acquired" requires somebody to know how to drive it. The player with a JoaT skill gives the character a 0 level skill in this and he manages to get it moving and under control. So long as some crisis doesn't come up driving it he's managing to drive without failure.
JoaT is made useful in that sense.
On the other hand, your spaceship is under attack and the pilot just got taken out. The JoaT skill player attempts to take over without any actual piloting skills... Your party is still likely totally screwed as the JoaT skill character probably won't manage to pilot the ship successfully. (ie., a pilot skill of 0 with the task difficulty increased by 1 or 2).

Not a bad application of the rule as written

Here is how it was written in 77 edition:

This skill is a general ability which may be applied to nearly any endeavor at the discretion of the referee.

 

[creativehum]

Mike beat me to it. But yes. Exactly.

 

[mike wightman]

JoT allows you to attempt most anything, but you can never qualify for a crew position on a ship with it, for example of its limitations.

Remember also CT doesn't have standard target numbers for tasks - a referee can choose any number they like as the target for the roll.

Let's try applying it to a situation; take vacc suit. Your JoT 2 character doesn't have vacc suit but is called upon to perform a vital EVA: by the book this is a target number of 10, DMs +4 per level of vacc suit skill.
JoT 2 in this situation could grant +2 rather than the +8 you would get from a vac suit skill of 2.

Quite a few of the individual skills in CT have hefty target numbers and the skill level provides a DM of 2 per skill level.

 

[Whipsnade]

don't you mean "referee-d"? 'cause if joat is limited only by referee fiat then the players will indeed see it as a "get out of jail free" card and push it for all it's worth.

No, I mean "role-d". Roleplay it. Sell me on your plan. It's like Creativehum wrote, I want you the player to come up with a plan and not simply plan on your character making a roll.

Referee discretion isn't referee fiat. There's a great difference between:

"His leg's broken? I've got J-o-T-1 which is Medic-0 so I'll roll."

And...

"His leg's broken? The medkit has a diagnostic pad with an expert system, right? Let me read things over for a bit and see what can be done. We should stop the ATV though. He shouldn't be jostled. See what kind of analgesics are in there. If he's lucky, there'll be some nerve block 'trodes."

 

[flykiller]

There's a great difference between:

"His leg's broken? I've got J-o-T-1 which is Medic-0 so I'll roll."

And...

"His leg's broken? The medkit has a diagnostic pad with an expert system, right? Let me read things over for a bit and see what can be done. We should stop the ATV though. He shouldn't be jostled. See what kind of analgesics are in there. If he's lucky, there'll be some nerve block 'trodes."

seems to me the primary difference there is what the player knows vs what the character knows. I've been to army emt school so I can talk field medical patter pretty good, but that doesn't mean lady lora lei knows anything about it. and vice versa.

reminds me of that description I read somewhere of the adventure team stranded in the wilderness, and one guy had wilderness survival 1 - but one of the players was quite good at it in the real world. the adventure team wandered out of the wilderness a year later, well-fed and well-clothed in animal pelts, with lots of pelts to sell.

reminds me also of another guy whose d&d character (low-level thief/assassin/something) had very low trap-setting "skill" but who prided himself on setting up horribly elaborate and fool-proof traps verbally anyway. he would describe each one in detail, laying out each detail of each mechanism. he would take out entire tribes of hostiles, and at no point could the dm justify any failure or even any chance of failure along the way.

 

[aramis]

In fact, in LBB1, JOT is a more common skill than Pilot, as it's present in more careers and skill tables and does not require EDU 8+ to be rolled (Pilot appears only in advanced education tables, and only for Navy, Scouts and Merchants)

Every Scout gets pilot reguardless of Edu, from the Rank and Service skills.

 

[Whipsnade]

seems to me the primary difference there is what the player knows vs what the character knows. I've been to army emt school so I can talk field medical patter pretty good, but that doesn't mean lady lora lei knows anything about it. and vice versa.

I through some patter in sure. How about if he'd just said something about checking the medkit? Sell me a plan beyond planning to make a level-0 skill roll.

reminds me of that description I read somewhere of the adventure team stranded in the wilderness, and one guy had wilderness survival 1 - but one of the players was quite good at it in the real world. the adventure team wandered out of the wilderness a year later, well-fed and well-clothed in animal pelts, with lots of pelts to sell.

That was me. In college after the Navy, I ran Marooned for a group which included a recently discharged Army type new to role playing. He was pretty passive during the initial session where the PCs are aboard the liner and have to escape. He perked up with the it came to ambush the pursuers and he really bloomed when it came to the overland trek.

He easily convinced the group to take their time, stay through a winter, and turn themselves into itinerant trappers. They walked right into the starport without any trouble.

reminds me also of another guy whose d&d character (low-level thief/assassin/something) had very low trap-setting "skill" but who prided himself on setting up horribly elaborate and fool-proof traps verbally anyway. he would describe each one in detail, laying out each detail of each mechanism. he would take out entire tribes of hostiles, and at no point could the dm justify any failure or even any chance of failure along the way.

So he was role playing the skill instead of just "roll-playing" it? And the problem is?

I'd much rather have a player "own" and play out their PC's skill in that manner than do nothing other than roll the dice.

 

[creativehum]

Also, thank you for your awesome blog! It made me roll up a subsector and waste way too much time in the archives of these forums.

You're welcome! And thanks so much for the kind words!

 

[flykiller]

How about if he'd just said something about checking the medkit?

and if he said that, without having joat?

That was me.

(laugh) not only are you worth reading, you're worth remembering!

So he was role playing the skill instead of just "roll-playing" it? And the problem is?

the issue (whether or not it's a "problem" is another issue) is that the character has disappeared and has been replaced by the player. the player's skills become the character's. the character is detached from his setting and history and is now the player in drag. that's not role-playing, that's "me in space".

which, to be fair, is how most characters are played anyway. but there are consequences - for example, consider the people who view traveller space ship combat as being "pacific ocean naval warfare in space" and attempt to implement that view onto the game. that should give a good view of what happens to the game.

 

[Whipsnade]

and if he said that, without having joat?

He'd have a much harder time selling me his plan. J-o-T gives him a better chance, nothing more. He could say "It's in the skirtleflum with the friggienaum." just as long as he's thinking and not reacting.

 

[McPerth]

In CT'81 Pilot is also a rank/service skill. Scouts get it automatically upon enlistment and Merchants get when/if they make 1st Officer (Rank 4).

Every Scout gets pilot reguardless of Edu, from the Rank and Service skills.

Yes, Scouts get Pilot 1 upon enlistment, but to guet the second one they will have only 1 chance in 6, if they have EDU 8+. They have several chances to adquire JOT (in fact, it's in all their tables but Personal Developement).

As for merchants, they guyet it at R4, so, after commisioning (quite easy), they have promote 3 more times (with a roll of 10+, DM +1 for INT 9+), so they will need at least 3 terms (probably more).

 

[Whipsnade]

Yes, Scouts get Pilot 1 upon enlistment, but to guet the second one they will have only 1 chance in 6, if they have EDU 8+.

Before "skill creep" began to slowly infect Traveller and before advanced chargen, level 1 skills were enough.

 

[flykiller]

level 1 skills were enough.

indeed, they were hardly necessary. "electronics 1" covered everything from toasters to radar calibration. (given that vast range the distinction between "pilot" and "boat" seems strange ....)

and actually, often level 1 was nowhere near enough. vacc suit 1 is just enough to get you to take the risk and get you killed.

"skill creep"

I prefer the term "differentiation and clarification" myself.

 

[creativehum]

indeed, they were hardly necessary. "electronics 1" covered everything from toasters to radar calibration. (given that vast range the distinction between "pilot" and "boat" seems strange ....)

Are you saying you would make the players make a roll to repair a toaster? The Classic Traveller text makes it clear that the Electronic skill is used for repairs of consequence, often in crisis. How do you actually play the game?

and actually, often level 1 was nowhere near enough. vacc suit 1 is just enough to get you to take the risk and get you killed.

I think you might be conflating the actual rules of Classic Traveller with a version of house rules, or later editions of Traveller rules.

In Classic Traveller Vacc expertise offers a DM+4 per level on a Throw of 10+ to avoid a dangerous situation whenever any non-ordinary maneuver is attempted. Thus, someone without Vacc Suit expertise has a 17% chance of success in such a maneuver. (Someone with Vacc-0 lacks expertise and so would suffer the same odds.) Meanwhile, someone with Vacc-1 would have odds for success at 74%. A good improvement!

The rules go on to say that if that Throw is failed, it "may be remedied by any character with vacc suit skill (including the character in danger) on a throw of 7+; DMs: per level of expertise, +2; if no expertise, -4." A PC with Vacc-1 would have a 83% chance of fixing the situation. Someone without any Vacc training would have a 8% chance of fixing the situation. And a JoT (coming in at Vacc-0) would lose the DM-4 and have a 58% chance of fixing the problem.

So an expertise-1 does not always equal a DM+1 for a throw. And someone with Vacc-1 has substantially better odds of dealing with dangerous situations over someone who does not. And someone with JoT (and who can justify his JoT in the circumstances at hand to the Referee) has much better odds than someone without, but still not nearly as good as someone with proper training.

I don't know if you knew that, but I wanted to point it out.