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J2+ why bother?

in earlier editions of trav their was no real reason for a player merchant to run a J2 or higher ship it was just not economical unless you where operating in a "scatters" environment and needed J2 capability just to get any where, infact supplement 7 "traders & gunboats" pointed out that the owner of a A2 far trader with a morgage was going backwards fast, without a healthy amount of speculative trade going on.

in-fact their where no economically viable J2+ merchant vessels ,apart from the type M subsided liner a ship too large for a party of 3-5 to handle on their own, up until the release of the Alien Modules?

This had bothered me and some others I have talked to at cons and in stores, how do we get workable J2+ ships for our merchant and freebooter types? The awencers that most communally came up where

1. make the characters fat with cash then let them stumble across a far trader going cheap (just a little Deis Ex-Machina/ Monty Hall for my tastes)
2. just declare that the Impirum has the same designs as the XT's (or something functionally equleavant) and leave it at that (a popular option that to me seamed to much of an easy way out)
3. Get together with some gear-heads and finance boffins (Boffin, English, Australian slang, someone who is expert and or talented in a field) and work up a few ships that suit the economic and gaming needs (the ideal choice if you have access to the talent pool and time)
4. Play with the economics (the scariest and most dangerous)
5. Mix and march the above.

I would like to look at option 4. as it looks like the one with the biggest FUBAR factor if done wrong. the simplest way is to change the prices that a merchant can charge from a per jump rate (as in the traveller rules) to a per parsec rate, but doing so would change the trade balance of the game re-drawing trade and communications routs as well as resource and finished goods markets also the demand for ships like the type A would drastically change, this would change the feel of the game to much.

So if a direct rate change dose not work? Try base price plus Addisonal charge per extra parsec, but at what rate? If we try 50% per Addisonal parsec the A2 brakes even and has a tad to spare but larger ships with longer jump legs gain to much of an cost to income advantage, and it brakes the image of the far trader doing charter work and speculative trade to brake even, also this has nilly but not quite the same effect as going for a per parsec rate. Going for a lesser percentage say 25% per Addison parsec keeps the market from going J2+ mad and gives the J2+ operators around the same margins as their J1 counterparts (actually a bit less) now loosen the price fixing regs to say that “you may charge from the listed standard rates (as you would find under ship revenues) up to an Addisonal charge of 25% per Addisonal parsec” and market forces will push the priced down to base price +10% in most market places, You could even allow players to negotiate ticket and freight prices using broker (or equleivant skills).

Thoughts and opinions, also any suggestions welcomed.
 
I'd take a less drastic approach, and make players buy a used starship (or obtain an old starship from a trusted relative). Old far traders could go for low prices, with a corresponding decrease in reliability. Which, when coupled with a good referee, makes the game a lot of fun.
 
Greetings and salutations,

Years ago when I ran a couple of people in a Traveller game, the players were making enough profit to scrape by with their used J2 ship. One was the pilot and the other was the engineer. Some of the tricks they used were:
</font>
  • astrogator and medic/steward were filled by working passage</font>
  • managed to obtain government and/or corporate contracts for the transportation of goods and/or people. They also did a lot of research into finding out which planets needed what.</font>
  • in a bold move, they went pirate hunting. The first trip was a draw; the second they lost; and the third they ended up with enough credits to make a payment, repair the ship, and buy cargo. At that point, they decided "third times the charm".</font>
  • I had the ship hired as a party ship. Noble children looking for something "new and exciting" that was not their every day. There were also an infrequent private charter.</font>
Remember: war is good for business
 
Two suggestions:

1) Get a copy of GURPS Traveller: Far Trader. This book impilments your suggestion 4, done by an economist and peer reviewed by the Traveller community. See maps of the results here.

2) Realize that the speculative trade system presented in Book 3 (and the T20) book are designed for ease of use for the GM/Players and do not represent an actual trade flow. It was infact deliberitly designed so players could not survive by just trading, the would need to find additional work (read: Adventures).

So, yes the trade rules don't support using a J2+ ship, unless you get heavily into the Speculative trade rules.
 
Actually just charging per parsec makes sense and doesn't change the actual mapped nature of the Universe. In reality if you are charging per jump, with the finance rules in place then it is extremely unlikely that there will be hordes of Jump-2+ Merchants out there. Therefore anything not on a main would be backwater. However systems along the mains are definitely backwater and systems off the main are major trade centers. (Rhylanor and Trin being two obvious ones in the Spinward Marches.)

Now if you charge per parsec and use Falkyn's excellent spreadsheet given reasonable expectations on filling a starship you will find that the profit margin for higher jump ships is proportional to the cost. (Roughly) For example, Comparing a Free Trader and a Far Trader, the Free trader with a full load of high passengers and a full load of low passengers has to charge around Cr750 per ton of cargo to break even. A Far Trader with a similar load has to charge Cr1800 per ton of cargo to break even. (DOuble the passenger price while you are at it and your margin is definitely similar.) Especially since a Far Trader carries quitre a bit less Cargo and only 20% or so of the low passengers.

Logically it makes sense. You might not like paying more to get there if you are used to the price per jump system but if you look at it another way would you be willing to pay the same price to get somewhere if it took you two jumps as opposed to one? Because that Free Trader is going to charge you KCr20 to go two parsecs. (And take twice as long or more to get there.)

Charging per parsec does not eliminate the Free Traders and other one jump ships they are still the biggest bang for your buck. Especially for Spec trade as they have bigger holds and ton for ton more capacity. Further you can't always guarantee that you can go your full jump capacity. Economically the Jump-1 ships still make more sense, the Jump-2+ ships just now make sense.

BTW Merchant Ships above Jump-4 are a specialized breed and usually built for one purpose only. (As they have much less space to be generalists and they have a hard time breaking even even charging per parsec.)

It is a logical fix, it is also an easy fix. I have been using it for years and have only found one problem in using it. That is when characters use mustering out passages. I have ruled that they can either cash it in for the price of a Jump-1 passage or take it one hop of any duration and the Government reimburses the carrier for the price of the passage. Generally limits the excessive cash that can result but if the players use it to pay for passage aboard a ship that a character owns....
 
Originally posted by tjoneslo:
Two suggestions:

2) Realize that the speculative trade system presented in Book 3 (and the T20) book are designed for ease of use for the GM/Players and do not represent an actual trade flow. It was infact deliberitly designed so players could not survive by just trading, the would need to find additional work (read: Adventures).
Nope. Wrong.

The T20 playtesters all tried to make it so that you could make it on JUST spec trade, if need be.

The only way, long term, to not make money at spec trade under T20 is to not have positive modifiers... and positive mods, if done conservatively, are easily acquired. Go for the big mods, and you may get nothing. Go for the small ones, and you can usually get them.

Making spec trade work, in any edition:
1: don't buy cargoes if the net sale gain is against you.
2: Predict that first die locally; don't look into the lot any further if it's a 5 or 6...
3: predict the sale point before you buy... if the sale dies isn't at least 2 higher than the purchase die, don't buy.
4: Remember to reinvest and keep enough capital on hand... you never know when a load of gold or iridium may turn up cheap...
5: if you get a really high value-density load (Purchased below 50% base, and base is KCr5+), predict for the next world, and when you get there, predict for the world after... take the better one...

Mind you, under T20, you NEED a merchant with two class feats to make the trade system into a moneymaker... Calculating Eye (Allows taking 10 on the tassk to determine broker bonus) and Market Analyst (Allows you to predict 1st and maybe second, die of the 3d6 AVT...). SO you need a character with at least 2 levels of merchant... both for the +5 from skill to make the DC 15 checks for +1 and 1st die... more is better.

Work for passage rates is what can't be sustained. And, even then, it's possible to do it. (I've figured MT and T20 designs which cleanly make a consistent profit, within certain niches, at J2.) But each ruleset has its quirks. The Bk2 had a problem with only one lot per week of spec, by some interpretations. Bk7 had a lack of variability in base price. MT essentially used Bk7, but had ships with considerably more cargo percentage at J2+. TNE had ships which took a week to get to the jump point, rather than half a day, and had a slightly higher than Bk2 cargo rate, coupled to the Bk7 tables for cargos. T4, ship-wise, was nigh-identical to TNE, except that ships had less cargo due to more fuel. T20 is a better spread of goods on the tables, but is essentially Bk2 T&C and Bk5 ships...

But in all cases, the small indies need to speculate to make a significant ROI... now said ROI is probably a lot more than the investors who charge 1% APR compounded monthly...

J2 is essentially a way to treble the number of potential destinations. A true spec-tramp takes only what her crew buys and last-minutes, since she goes wherever the goods will sell best, based upon her purser's ability to predict the sale price, and the mods from the cargo tables.
 
The reason i put this up is with the GM's I've played with it comes out that around only One in Five Adventures (for freebooters) actualy reterns a profit after you take out expences like ammo, lost and damaged equpment, bail, deposit fortfatuares (on reantals), ship repairs,inpound fees, medical bills, bribes and sofourth. not including the loss of regular income wile not working the ship. the 20% that do reteran cash are eneough to keeap the character out of debtors prision, only 10% of them is what could be conciderd a "mother laoad" job and most of that goes on repairs & replacements that where not in the budget when the damage was done and get the character rigitious with the banks so it can start again with our next instalment of Treveller. of cause the marines and scouts had a diffrant veiw of the economics of outside work as they wearnt the ones responcable for a ship that wasn't theirs, but still expected to be paid their ships wages for the times they where off doing somtning elese. of cause when your not a ship owner the pay for outside work leaves you rither cossy (once wile playing a marine I took my share 50K and blue it all on hats just so I said I had) of cause I'm the same with runing adventures as the rest of them and beleave the lean and hungery is a good way for characters to be.
 
Originally posted by 313:
in earlier editions of trav their was no real reason for a player merchant to run a J2 or higher ship it was just not economical unless you where operating in a "scatters" environment and needed J2 capability just to get any where, infact supplement 7 "traders & gunboats" pointed out that the owner of a A2 far trader with a morgage was going backwards fast, without a healthy amount of speculative trade going on.
I’d have to disagree. J-1 freighters are severely limited in where they can go. They must stick to the J-1 Mains. In Spinward Marches, the Spinward Main itself is broken by Red Zoned worlds, and so a J-1 freighter can faced with making a double jump, a huge loss. If we switch to T20 rules, although it grants many advantage over CT:Book 3, it also takes into account (somewhat) the source and destination worlds, and this leads to some worlds being very disadvantageous to trade with. Places where very little cargo would be generated because the next world down the line isn’t a favorable trade partner (usually due to TL differences). Also, from an adventuring perspective, it takes absolutely forever to go anywhere (the lost flexibility is really hampering). In my mind, the game is Traveller, not Snail’s-Pace-City.


Originally posted by 313:
in-fact their where no economically viable J2+ merchant vessels ,apart from the type M subsided liner a ship too large for a party of 3-5 to handle on their own, up until the release of the Alien Modules?
Hey! If you could get full loads, a Far Trader could squeak by.
file_22.gif



Originally posted by 313:
This had bothered me and some others I have talked to at cons and in stores, how do we get workable J2+ ships for our merchant and freebooter types? The awencers that most communally came up where

1. make the characters fat with cash then let them stumble across a far trader going cheap (just a little Deis Ex-Machina/ Monty Hall for my tastes)
2. just declare that the Impirum has the same designs as the XT's (or something functionally equleavant) and leave it at that (a popular option that to me seamed to much of an easy way out)
What do you mean by “XT’s”? (The only thing flashing through my head is Extra Terrestrial, but that’s not really a term that applies in a milieu with scores of races and star travel.)


Originally posted by 313:
4. Play with the economics (the scariest and most dangerous)
Does that make me fearless? (No, don’t answer that . . .
file_23.gif
)


Originally posted by 313:
5. Mix and march the above.

I would like to look at option 4. as it looks like the one with the biggest FUBAR factor if done wrong. the simplest way is to change the prices that a merchant can charge from a per jump rate (as in the traveller rules) to a per parsec rate, but doing so would change the trade balance of the game re-drawing trade and communications routs as well as
There are no official trade routes, so there’s not problem there. The communications routes are the X-Boat routes, and they’re shaped by politics and string-pulling, not by economics (there isn’t a single rule in any of the trade systems that adds positive modifiers for each X-Boat route terminating at a world, though I strongly believe there should be).


Originally posted by 313:
resource and finished goods markets also the demand for ships like the type A would drastically change, this would change the feel of the game to much.
Demand for the type A? Sorry, but IMTU, I take on the radical (but not unpopular among some of us) view that all the small yacht-sized freighters are “tramps” (they’re called this in many official products). The official trade rules show only what a “tramp” can get a hold of to ship, not the actual amounts of products to ship on any particular planet. As “tramps,” these small ships represent only a tiny fraction of actual trade. The real trade is carried on by the Megacorps and Sector Corps. The major leavings are carried on by Subsector and Interface Corps. Smaller lines pick up whatever scraps are left behind (i.e. the published trade rules). IMTU, independents are frequently forced to do risky things in order to make the next payment.

IMTU, I scale ships differently. 100-2000 dTons is the “Ultra-Light” category, the smallest of the small of starhips. Most freighters operated by Megacorps run 20,000 to 50,000 dTons. The Megacorporate freighters are built cheap, because the Megacorps can extract far larger discounts than the independents can; and which operate on contracts to carry products fixed into place one to two years before the freighter ever arrives to pick up the product).

Overall, what this means, is that the numbers of and demand for type A1 freighters is actually quite small.

Even in the OTU, I really don’t see Type A’s as the be all and end all. They’re better off in CT, but in T20, they’re hurt pretty bad.

Take the simple case of an A1 on the way from Quiru/Spinward Marches (2321) to Resten/Spinward Marches (2323), two parsecs away. No trade available on the intervening world, Gorram/Spinward Marches (2322), though because Gorram is a component of the Spinward Main, transit itself must be allowed (otherwise the Spinward Main isn’t nearly as long as stated).

T20 Random cargo generation from Quiru to Resten is depressing. Hardly anything is available on most weeks. And the A1 faces a double jump to sell it. A1’s operated by NPCs in the background of the milieu will not go there. PC’s, on the other hand, might easily get stuck in this situation.

The point is, this type of disadvantageous situation, if we go strictly by the T20 rules, exists in many places (more than there are ideal ones). So we can’t go strictly by the trade rules (from any edition). Adventure and earnings from it supplement trading for PCs. NPCs live by other means.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tjoneslo:
Two suggestions:

2) Realize that the speculative trade system presented in Book 3 (and the T20) book are designed for ease of use for the GM/Players and do not represent an actual trade flow. It was infact deliberitly designed so players could not survive by just trading, the would need to find additional work (read: Adventures).
Nope. Wrong.

The T20 playtesters all tried to make it so that you could make it on JUST spec trade, if need be.
</font>[/QUOTE]Grr. You are right. Quote should read "Realize that the Base trade system presented in Book 3 (and the T20) book are designed for ease of use for the GM/Players and do not represent an actual trade flow.
 
The SR? Not very far!!! It's J2 from earth to either neighbor...

And the SR has very few mains at all...
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
The SR? Not very far!!! It's J2 from earth to either neighbor...

And the SR has very few mains at all...
EXCUSE ME!?

I guess that's not counting the one with nearly 100 worlds on it that stretches from 0224 Shaalgar/Albaddawi (I subsector)then through J, K,
F, G, H, and finally D subsectors terminating at 2905 Arkiikii Harliquin D Subsector. Gee I guess that one is really quite small and trifling.
 
What I do is cut costs for fuel and maintenance. I increse price by 50 cr/ton, and make refined fuel available on all starports except class "E". My costs are 50% of book, which allows for traders to survive. But I have a massive number of starships involved in trade.
 
Much of the SR is that one main.. the rest is pretty scattered.

Not insignificant, but through most of the sector, insignificant, yes. Not where it is... but really there are about 2 mains ( I consider a main to be 10+ worlds with at least 15 J1 bidirectional routings... there is one on the rimward edge, and the one you describe, and about half the worlds are in scattered clusters.

Without J2, much of the SR is bubpkis for truly tramp speculation (buy first, then figure where to go.). The marches have 3 good clusters for J1 tramping.
 
Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Hey! If you could get full loads, a Far Trader could squeak by.
file_22.gif

Can it?
Lets see. T20.
Far Trader MCr68.138. Monthly payment = KCr283.909

Full load of High Passengers KCr120 per month
Full Load of Low Passengers KCr8 per month
Full load of Cargo (66 Tons - 6 tons for High Passenger Baggage.)KCr120 per month.
Total revenue per month KCr248.
Forget about the other costs. Didn't make it.

CT, Supp-7 Type A2 Cost MCr59.56.
Monthly Payment = KCr248.167

Full load of High Passengers KCr120 per month
Full Load of Low Passengers KCr8 per month
Full load of Cargo KCr120 per month.
Total revenue per month KCr248.

Closer but still short.

And so far nobody is getting paid and the ship isn't being maintained.


MT, Far Trader Cost MCr41.07 (Cheap little bugger in these rules.)

Monthly Payment KCr171.125
Maintenance fund KCr3.423
Life support KCr40.8
Set aside payment for when ship is in maintenance.
KCr14.261
Fuel=KCr44.852 Per month (Refined fuel, the ship has no refinery.)
Total monthly Cost=KCr274.461

Full load of High Passengers KCr120 per month
Full Load of Low Passengers KCr8 per month
Full load of Cargo KCr110 per month.
Total revenue per month KCr238.

Not bad, not bad at all.
So if the Crew is on shares they only each have to pay KCr9.116 per month to have the ship.
Or if you rather mess with your chances for a misjump, you can have the ship cost KCr238.580 per month. Or if you can do wilderness refueling at all your stops, (Not all systems allow this.) you can split about KCr8 4 ways to pay the crew each month. (They better all be PCs.
)

In MT for a ship not past maintenance to jump using unrefined fuel more than 100D from a heavenly body, needs to roll a task of 7+ (Engineering skill is a modifier.) twice. If you fail it either time you misjump. Good luck.
 
Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Hey! If you could get full loads, a Far Trader could squeak by.
file_22.gif

Can it?
Lets see. T20.
Far Trader MCr68.138. Monthly payment = KCr283.909

Full load of High Passengers KCr120 per month
</font>[/QUOTE]Double Occupency makes the earnings better than that.


Originally posted by Bhoins:
Full load of Cargo (66 Tons - 6 tons for High Passenger Baggage.)KCr120 per month.
Priority Cargo, and the other more valuable cargo types, make the earnings better than that.
 
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