I've mustered out, now what.......

[rmiracle]

I've spend the last little bit reading through my T20 which arrived today and worked on creating a couple of characters.

Somehow I missed the "you can take levels in anything while in the Navy" rule. So with that ignorance in mind and after reading what I think are the relevents subjects, I have a question.

I've generated a 4 term Navy dude. He is now 34 and mustered out taking all levels in Navy. He is about 3000 points short of 8th level.

Since my 4 year term is up and I'm in the middle of a level and that level is a service class, what do I do? I can't pick up another class until I pop levels. I however am no longer in the Navy to continue accruing Navy experiences.

Where in the rules is this multi-class (buy levels) stuff talked about (Page numbers please)?

Thanks
Rob

 

[themink]

A Lot of the Multi-class stuff is from PHB (or equivalent) however the summary:-

When the Character hits eigth level, he level ups. At this stage they decide what class they want to level up in. Professional or Academic are two obvious choices (he is probably low on skills).

So then he is a 7th Level Navy, 1st Level Academic (for instance). He continues earning XP till he gets to ninth level and levels up - whereupon he decides what class he will be leveling up.

Notice the distinct break from older D&D's where the xp needed was based on the class/level you were going up in. In this one, you have a "character level" which determines XP, some Extra feats etc - and a selection of "class levels".

There are no page numbers from THB because it doesn't explain it there.

 

[themink]

Aaargh - Is this an IP issue? Should we not answer questions like this with anything other than "Read the PHB"?

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by The Mink:
Aaargh - Is this an IP issue? Should we not answer questions like this with anything other than "Read the PHB"?

I doubt it. A lot of people had no problem explaining all this to me when I was asking about multiclassing in my various "how the hell do you make a character?" threads. And I've *got* the PHB.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

I have had to explain chargen to every player in my partie(s) whom I didn't walk through the process.

One's a History grad who's Brains I admire.
The other's a Undergrad in Ed, who kicks my rear regularly in warhammer and actually beat my unbeatable friend. (the first one mentioned)

They BOTH had trouble with Chargen. New Editions of the THB could do with an index and some sort of overall description of how to chargen.

I've encouraged my first friend to post his complaints/suggestions to Errata since I'm sure they'd be insightful and useful... although rather blunt. But he hasn't yet.

 

[rmiracle]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by The Mink:
Aaargh - Is this an IP issue? Should we not answer questions like this with anything other than "Read the PHB"?

I doubt it. A lot of people had no problem explaining all this to me when I was asking about multiclassing in my various "how the hell do you make a character?" threads. And I've *got* the PHB.</font>[/QUOTE]I've got the PHB and have been playing 3E D&D For over a year and this isn't the question I'm asking.

There is not a distiction in the THB between level classes and prior history classes. In my read of the THB each 4 year term is spent in a class, at the end of that 4 years, you can change to a new class, ah la CT/MT. I didn't see any where in the book that suggests that the two are seperate. If I want to multi-class, I do it at the end of my term by spending another term in another class.

Having read the other threads, I see how people are "buying classes" which I don't remember in either book, but I now see how that works.

So back to my question:

I've finished my last term. My last picked class was a service class like Navy. I don't have enough experience points to make my next level. Do I begin play as active duty Navy and not muster out and muster out when I pop a level and can change classes?

An example. Gurmesh Vulleian is a 4 term Navy officer. He is also a 7th level Navy character with 2000 exp needed to make 8th level. He has no other classes being a dedicated Navy man. His tour of duty ends and he decides its time to leave the Navy (i.e. and begin play).

What class do I begin play as? Do I muster out? Do I stay active duty? What if it takes several years to reach that next level? It seems to me there needs to be a clean way to end a term and be able to begin play. Perhaps a rule that says your last selected class must be a core class.

Did I miss something?

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

To the orginal poster.

Prior History and Class even though they use the same names are not connected inextricably.

you can for example, as a 7th level character with Years and Years only in the navy be:

1 navy/6th level rogue (a scurvy dude who rogue-ishly always has those rare usefull items for sale. or can find gear that seems impossible to get issued.)

3/navy/4th academic (an Experienced Naval officer who's devoted the last half of his career to learning the intricacies of a his charge's engines(t/engineer, t/mechanicals etc.) OR one who has made passing on the lessons he's learned to the next generation of young officers (leadership, p/admin, k/appropriate military . ..stuff))

similarly, you can explain almost any class breakdown. Just because you are in a NAVY prior history doesn't mean you HAVE to level up in the navy class.

now...

4 terms in Navy prior history entitles your character to 4 rolls on the NAVY muster out table (the table labeled navy that's in the prior history section NOT the one that's in the classes section)

anyway.. 4 rolls + whatever extra rolls he's earned for rank.

one way to get extra experience if you are 3k short a level is to 'go back to school' and take some university when you muster out.

Since you don't have any levels in any other core classes. basically if you fail to get the experience in university, your character is going to have to start adventuring at 7th level.

sucks to be you.

 

[rmiracle]

So I guess, when we generate characters to play this weekend, I need to tell everyone to make sure their last selected class level is in a core class and not service class (unless your a scout), that way they can muster out, be clear of the terms and have a level they can continue play in.

Is that the basic take? Avoid a service class as your last class level?

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

absolutely not.

you can always level up in a core class that you qualify for. AND must have one level in such class to do a term of prior history in that class' associated prior history.

BUT...

once you start adventuring.

As long as you qualify for a core or prestige class you can level up in that as soon as your first adventuring level is acquired.

Assuming you didn't do something like scout or aren't in an 'Active Service' Campaign.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Just to rant for a bit...

Of course, this is why I have big problems with the T20 chargen system - it's far too complicated for what it does IMHO. Not only do you have to worry about what skills and feats you're eligible for depending on your race and starting clss, but you're encouraged to multiclass (where you have to refer to various lists of feats and skills that are different for eachclass), *and* you have prior history laid on top of it all. It's probably more a fault of d20 chargen than T20, but it's not remotely elegant or straightforward.

Compare that to something like GURPS, where no matter how advanced the character, chargen basically boils down to picking enough things from the various universally available lists that add up to the allotted points value of your character). Or, perhaps more equivalently, to Storyteller, where each splat within a game spends the same amount of points, but on different things.

Not that anyone can do anything about all this, it was just a vent really, and rather subject to opinion

 

[rmiracle]

Originally posted by Garf:
absolutely not.

you can always level up in a core class that you qualify for. AND must have one level in such class to do a term of prior history in that class' associated prior history.

When you muster out of your last term, you most likely will be in between levels. I'm assuming that you begin play at that level and experience.

When leaving your service branch, such as the Marines, you are out of that service. Thats why you mustered out.

Lets say hypotetically that your 7th level and you selected Marine as your 7th level.

I've now mustered out. I'm no longer a marine. But I am still a marine until I finish the level. See the confusion?

I guess it doesn't matter when level 8 comes, I guess I could still take another Marine level.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Kludgey d20 patch and all. I -like- T20

YMMV.

and I have to disagree with the poster who thinks that Class and prior history are mandatorily linked.

In CT there was NO CLASS to 'level up' you got skills based on prior history. each skill was bought individually. The selection was limited to tables such as Rank and Service Tables, Or Army Life, or Shipboard skills, or Shore duty.

Since all personal combat skills have been subsumed into BAB. High BAB classes (like marines) represent a player who invariably chose skills like brawling, Gun combat, and plus one dex, when these opportunities arose.

but how do you represent a marine who instead bought Admin, Recruiting, Leadership, +1 edu, Technical or Science Cascades?

I know how -I- would do it. (levels in academic or professional) but you've rejected that. so ...

how do you do it?

 

[BluWolf]

Admittedly I don't have the T20HB yet, but I'm not sure I understand the confusion.

You have two seperate concepts class level and character level.

Character level is a straight path from 1-20 (or beyond) levels. At each level you achieve (determined by accumulatedX P), you can choose a class to aquire.

The class you can choose for that level is determined by a number of "qualifying factors". Different for each class.

Each level of a class you take provides you with, skills, feats, stamina, class features, BAB and saves.

Prior history is a randomized way to simulate what your character did before they ecame an adventurer. Nothing more.

Each 4 year prior history term will afford you, potentially, XP, money or gear (possibly more but thats the gist).

With that XP you will advance your chacracter level by level.

Choose a starting point and then apply the benefits of each class one level at a time.

I'm not sure I understand the confusion??

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

What the above poster said.

If you're not a marine anymore you're not a marine.

when you hit 8th level you can level up in whatever you qualify for. your XP earned between levels goes to the level in your new class.

DON'T get tied up in -- "But I was doing marine stuff so the xp should go to marines" NO it doesn't.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by BluWolf:
Admittedly I don't have the T20HB yet, but I'm not sure I understand the confusion.

You have two seperate concepts class level and character level.

Character level is a straight path from 1-20 (or beyond) levels. At each level you achieve (determined by accumulatedX P), you can choose a class to aquire.

The class you can choose for that level is determined by a number of "qualifying factors". Different for each class.

Each level of a class you take provides you with, skills, feats, stamina, class features, BAB and saves.

Prior history is a randomized way to simulate what your character did before they ecame an adventurer. Nothing more.

Each 4 year prior history term will afford you, potentially, XP, money or gear (possibly more but thats the gist).

With that XP you will advance your chacracter level by level.

Choose a starting point and then apply the benefits of each class one level at a time.

I'm not sure I understand the confusion??

With me, it's not so much confusion, as "why is this complexity actually necessary". To me, the character generation in T20 (and indeed any d20 product) is one of the most complex I've seen in any system.

I mean, it works (just about, once one has spend hours bashing one's head against the table trying to figure out how it all inter-relates

), but there are too many unecessary layers to it for my tastes, and as a result it's all really rather complicated and confusing, and I'm not convinced that the effort one has to go to in order to make a well-rounded character here is all that justified. But then I guess that's an artifact of the level/class system (or just d20 chargen in general) more than anything else.

Short of ripping out the chargen system and replacing it with something more streamlined though (which wouldn't happen, given the vagaries of the d20 license), there's not much anyone can do about it though. I doubt that most people would want that to happen anyway. But then I'm of the opinion that Traveller is defined by the setting, not the system.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Yeah for me, Traveller is the Imperium, x-boats, Humaniti with an 'i', Prior history, etc...

The game mechanics are just that. rules to make it all work. interchangable, variable, subject to Referee interpretation and modification.

 

[BluWolf]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
With me, it's not so much confusion, as "why is this complexity actually necessary". To me, the character generation in T20 (and indeed any d20 product) is one of the most complex I've seen in any system.

I hear what your are saying but I can not relate to your experience. I'm not a blind fan boy. I just never had any difficulty with it.

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
I mean, it works (just about, once one has spend hours bashing one's head against the table trying to figure out how it all inter-relates

), but there are too many unecessary layers to it for my tastes, and as a result it's all really rather complicated and confusing, and I'm not convinced that the effort one has to go to in order to make a well-rounded character here is all that justified. But then I guess that's an artifact of the level/class system (or just d20 chargen in general) more than anything else.

In actuality the class system of D20 is very easily "debugged". Classes (in fact just about any aspect of the game) is just a template. In the instance of classes assorted skills, feats and class abilities have been grouped togethr in a template package called a class. It actually sort of simplifies things.

If you wanted to do away with classes ANY class ability could be converted to a feat and made available to anyone. Then just adjust the character level chart to a single progession for all PCs granting a greater number of feats each level. Say (off the top of my head) 3 at first level and 1 at each additonal level, or something to this effect.

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Short of ripping out the chargen system and replacing it with something more streamlined though (which wouldn't happen, given the vagaries of the d20 license), there's not much anyone can do about it though.

Not true. You could do it for yourself easily enough. Just don't give it to anyone. There are many folks out there that have debated and or actually changed D20 to a "classless" system.

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
I doubt that most people would want that to happen anyway. But then I'm of the opinion that Traveller is defined by the setting, not the system.

I agree and disagree with this statement. For me, Traveller is a cool generic Sci-Fi setting. The details of MWM concept really don't interest me. I do agree however, that a rules sytem for just about any setting is superfluos (sp?). It really all comes down to what provides you and your players with the best over all experience.

 

[rmiracle]

I'm not getting my point across. Lets try again.

When you pick your prior history career, you spend 4 years in that career. Yes you can level up in different classes during that 4 year career if you get enough experience points.

Most of the time, your experience will not end exactly on a level boundry, so at the end of a 4 year term, you are in the middle of some class level.

Upon mustering out of the 4 year career, the assumption is you begin play no longer in that career but still a member of that class. In this case, the player picked a service class, Marine to level up during their last term. So their active class that they are currently earning experience in and will begin play in, for this case is "Marine".

However, the player just ended his "Marine" career but still has to finish his "Marine" Level before he can change classes again.

The question is, if this is the case, does the player not muster out and stay active duty?

One of two possiblities exists. 1. He has left the Marine career and gets another job while staying a Marine Class. If this is the case, its logical to assume that one could continue leveling up in Marine after prior history (which the rules seem to not allow). 2. A character preparing to muster out must take a core class as their active level (last level in prior history) so they can continue on advancing that level (since you can't advance service classes after previous history).

Am I still not making myself clear?

 

[BluWolf]

Originally posted by Anton Devious:
I'm not getting my point across. Lets try again.

When you pick your prior history career, you spend 4 years in that career. Yes you can level up in different classes during that 4 year career if you get enough experience points.

Most of the time, your experience will not end exactly on a level boundry, so at the end of a 4 year term, you are in the middle of some class level.

Upon mustering out of the 4 year career, the assumption is you begin play no longer in that career but still a member of that class. In this case, the player picked a service class, Marine to level up during their last term. So their active class that they are currently earning experience in and will begin play in, for this case is "Marine".

However, the player just ended his "Marine" career but still has to finish his "Marine" Level before he can change classes again.

The question is, if this is the case, does the player not muster out and stay active duty?

One of two possiblities exists. 1. He has left the Marine career and gets another job while staying a Marine Class. If this is the case, its logical to assume that one could continue leveling up in Marine after prior history (which the rules seem to not allow). 2. A character preparing to muster out must take a core class as their active level (last level in prior history) so they can continue on advancing that level (since you can't advance service classes after previous history).

Am I still not making myself clear?

I think there is a confusion here that a player selects a CLASS to advance in PRIOR to attainnig his next level.

NO, this is not the case by the rules. Strictly by the rules a player can choose ANY class he is qualified for upon attaining a new level regardless of the in-game play. They are seperate, irrelevant and in no other way matter to each other.

Your 7th lvl Marine PC can upon reaching 8th level select a new class in ANY class he is qualified for. By the rules.

Now, as a matter of running the game as the ref and for continuity reasons you can make an ingame decision to limit these options, but that is solely a role-playing issue. Not a game mechanic issue.

 

[rmiracle]

Originally posted by BluWolf:
Your 7th lvl Marine PC can upon reaching 8th level select a new class in ANY class he is qualified for. By the rules.

I understand that. I'm not worried about 8th level. I'm worried about 7th level. I've finished my prior history and I've mustered out. In theory according to the rules, I can't advance as a marine any more. I can get no more experience. But I'm not at a point where I can change classes yet.

So a) I don't muster out and stay an active duty marine until I reach 8th level or b) am required to take a non-service class as my "last" character level while in my last marine term.

Before I can do anything else, I have to finish that last level and there is confusion as to when that last level is the same as the career.

Does that help explain the problem better?