Ithklur in T20
- Thread starter helvorn
- Start date
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
I just read the authors six page explination about the "Santa Claus" connection, and it seemed like trying to justify a really bad idea...
Besides, Everyone knows Santa is a K'kree...
I like the concept of the Ithklur, but fear they could really unbalance a game, and think that the overall execution was very slapdash...
Besides, Everyone knows Santa is a K'kree...
I like the concept of the Ithklur, but fear they could really unbalance a game, and think that the overall execution was very slapdash...
notagoodusername
SOC-13
Like it or not Chris, I'm afraid that Aliens of the Rim is cannon, so an entirely new take on the Ithklur is not possible.
I used to feel the way you did, but a big debate with Pete Scarrott (hi Pete!) convinced me that it isn't that much of a problem. With the number of wierd seeming coincidences on earth today, I can buy the Sant Klass stuff. Plus I like the rest of the Ithklur culture.
Shane
Shane,
What in your discussions with Pete changed your mind about the play balance of the Ithklur? I personally like them a great deal (never played one though...).
The biggest limiting factor that I can see on them in play would be that they are tied to serving the Hivers (at least in TNE). Would you see a lot of room for an independent Ithklur bumming around in Human space?
Matt
PS Thanks to Fynn for the pointer to the Gateway book.
What in your discussions with Pete changed your mind about the play balance of the Ithklur? I personally like them a great deal (never played one though...).
The biggest limiting factor that I can see on them in play would be that they are tied to serving the Hivers (at least in TNE). Would you see a lot of room for an independent Ithklur bumming around in Human space?
Matt
PS Thanks to Fynn for the pointer to the Gateway book.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Canon or No, I personally find it unlikely that Aliens, conditioned by other aliens, several sectors away from earth, and 36 Centuries in the future, would adopt a relatively Obscure Terran Cultural Reference... it seems an arrogant assumption that the Terran Culture is the best an Entire Galaxy has to offer... why wouldn't they love Hiver christmas?
Or Wookie Light Day for that Matter?*
The whole thing gives me the feeling I got when I read Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms. Granted, I am first to admit that I hate Vampires and all of their gothy kind, but the only thing I hate more is a Post Apocalyptic Circus, complete with useless "Balloon People" character classes... It was the final straw when it came to Palladium Games with me... an a fine example of just how silly things can get without a sharp-eyed editor at work, or at least someone to tell you, "you've got a bad idea there..."
The author of the Ithklur thing defends it by citing Japanese Kids that Love Elvis, or American Kids that Love Godzilla, but then cross culturalizations make more sense on the same world, than in some very distant place, run totally by non-human Aliens...
I realize that the Hivers themselves hae a bit of "The Terran Bug", for some reason, IE thier adapted names, etc... but has there been any real speculation as to why they are so fascinated by a fairly average group of Humaniti? And why from a particular Time Period?
Such things make the rest of Known Space seem like only so much cardboard...
* yes, its a STAR WARS Christmas Special ('77) Reference...
Or Wookie Light Day for that Matter?*
The whole thing gives me the feeling I got when I read Rifts: Vampire Kingdoms. Granted, I am first to admit that I hate Vampires and all of their gothy kind, but the only thing I hate more is a Post Apocalyptic Circus, complete with useless "Balloon People" character classes... It was the final straw when it came to Palladium Games with me... an a fine example of just how silly things can get without a sharp-eyed editor at work, or at least someone to tell you, "you've got a bad idea there..."
The author of the Ithklur thing defends it by citing Japanese Kids that Love Elvis, or American Kids that Love Godzilla, but then cross culturalizations make more sense on the same world, than in some very distant place, run totally by non-human Aliens...
I realize that the Hivers themselves hae a bit of "The Terran Bug", for some reason, IE thier adapted names, etc... but has there been any real speculation as to why they are so fascinated by a fairly average group of Humaniti? And why from a particular Time Period?
Such things make the rest of Known Space seem like only so much cardboard...
* yes, its a STAR WARS Christmas Special ('77) Reference...
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
I was under the impression that it had nothing to do with anyone knowing about obscure Terran culture in the game at all - that instead the authors just thought it would be cool to put in something that WE'D see as an obvious reference to something we knew, but was supposedly totally unrelated.
But that just reinforces the fact that it's one of the three Traveller books that I wish had never been written (the others being GT: Behind the Claw and CT Book 3...).
I think that you have to read the Ithklur description with an open mind and somewhat of the mindset of the Ithklur themselves.
I think it is fairly sublime to poke fun at some of the overly sophisticated role playing concepts AND come up with a race that is entirely internally consistent. The philospohy gets fairly deep if you follow it closely. The quote from Martin Luther on pg 57 says most of what it means to be Ithklur.
The final way to look at the Ithklur description and is the final words of the author "Laugh and be free."
Matt
I think it is fairly sublime to poke fun at some of the overly sophisticated role playing concepts AND come up with a race that is entirely internally consistent. The philospohy gets fairly deep if you follow it closely. The quote from Martin Luther on pg 57 says most of what it means to be Ithklur.
The final way to look at the Ithklur description and is the final words of the author "Laugh and be free."
Matt
I have to agree with Matt; a little silliness can be explained away if your mind is open to the possibilities. Language is something that we find TONS of coincidences.
Consider this: S O C K S
To an English speaker, this looks like the word "socks", as in the things you put on your feet.
Say these letters out loud to a Spanish speaker, and s/he will think you are saying "Eso si que es", or "That's what it is". Nothing to do with footwear at all.
There are any number of times you can think you hear words of your own language interspersed within a foreign language being spoken, but have nothing at all to do with whatever sounds are produced.
So I have no problem with an odd coincidence like this. There's nothing wrong with poking a little fun, and it's certainly a believable example that few would ever consider. On the other hand, I disliked that the author claimed Ithklur were actually dinosaurs. I won't even get into how ridiculous THAT assertion is. I just ignore it as if it were a typo. It's not like GDW never made typos that large before. (Page 77 of FFS1, anyone?)
I am also glad the authors did not bore us to death pointing out ALL the potential such coincidences the Ithklur might have had with EVERY OTHER culture in the entire Imperium. That would have taken up another book or two, and I think we'd all be mad about that.
If you want to read about some REAL incredible coincidences, check out this book . I used to have a copy, right about the time it was published (I'd swear it was before that date, though), but have long since lost it.
Consider this: S O C K S
To an English speaker, this looks like the word "socks", as in the things you put on your feet.
Say these letters out loud to a Spanish speaker, and s/he will think you are saying "Eso si que es", or "That's what it is". Nothing to do with footwear at all.
There are any number of times you can think you hear words of your own language interspersed within a foreign language being spoken, but have nothing at all to do with whatever sounds are produced.
So I have no problem with an odd coincidence like this. There's nothing wrong with poking a little fun, and it's certainly a believable example that few would ever consider. On the other hand, I disliked that the author claimed Ithklur were actually dinosaurs. I won't even get into how ridiculous THAT assertion is. I just ignore it as if it were a typo. It's not like GDW never made typos that large before. (Page 77 of FFS1, anyone?)
I am also glad the authors did not bore us to death pointing out ALL the potential such coincidences the Ithklur might have had with EVERY OTHER culture in the entire Imperium. That would have taken up another book or two, and I think we'd all be mad about that.
If you want to read about some REAL incredible coincidences, check out this book . I used to have a copy, right about the time it was published (I'd swear it was before that date, though), but have long since lost it.
Man, don't even go there.
Yes, the Aslans are lions, the Vargr are wolves, the K'kree are horses/cows, and the Hivers are starfish, but do we really have to just flat out adopt 21st/20th century references?
Okay, I've gone too far. What did I say about not going there?
Actually, I get the impression that Dave was trying to be both ironic and sublime at the same time. Both poking a bit of fun at GDW and himself and trying to do an alien in the context that they are too plain alien to really comprehend outside of our own limited perceptions.
The humans of the Old Expanses were primarily of terran descent or culture unlike say the core imperial sectors so you the view of the ithklur as written from the standpoint of the RC would be tinged by a more terran viewpoint. Look at how much trouble we have even understanding other human cultures, let alone really alien ones.
So the Ithklur wear a santa claus hat. Is it really a santa claus hat or are we merely cultural and racial imperialists forcing our perceptions on an alien race? I would say that there were a number of just such "coincidences" in the ithklur section just to make that point!
Obviously a LOT of thought went into the ithklur write-up. It is quite a "coincidence" that you have the section on the manipulative hivers ("they are not what they are") next to the "happy warrior/philospher/gardener" ithklur. It further makes the point that we just can't really be so confident about imposing our own human perceptions on truly alien beings.
And after all that said above how can you NOT want to have a race of aliens in YTU who are baseball fanatics
Matt
PS As an aside on the side bar equating dinosuars with ithklur, i think that it was meant as an example of crack-pot, flat earth thinking rather than Dave saying that ithklur came from earth.
The humans of the Old Expanses were primarily of terran descent or culture unlike say the core imperial sectors so you the view of the ithklur as written from the standpoint of the RC would be tinged by a more terran viewpoint. Look at how much trouble we have even understanding other human cultures, let alone really alien ones.
So the Ithklur wear a santa claus hat. Is it really a santa claus hat or are we merely cultural and racial imperialists forcing our perceptions on an alien race? I would say that there were a number of just such "coincidences" in the ithklur section just to make that point!
Obviously a LOT of thought went into the ithklur write-up. It is quite a "coincidence" that you have the section on the manipulative hivers ("they are not what they are") next to the "happy warrior/philospher/gardener" ithklur. It further makes the point that we just can't really be so confident about imposing our own human perceptions on truly alien beings.
And after all that said above how can you NOT want to have a race of aliens in YTU who are baseball fanatics
Matt
PS As an aside on the side bar equating dinosuars with ithklur, i think that it was meant as an example of crack-pot, flat earth thinking rather than Dave saying that ithklur came from earth.
