Invasion of Terra: second Rim War?

[Hal]

Hello Folks,
I was wondering whimsically, what would happen should the Solomani forces decide to try and retake Terra.

Has anyone ever gamed that kind of theme for their own players?

At present, I'm wondering what if kind of thing where:

The Zhodani Consolate, sent a spy mission to the Solomani Capital along with a few "sensitives" as a "gift" to the Solomani government. The "sensitives" would help ferret out Imperial Spies, and show why working together might be a good idea. In return, the Solomani would be given assurances of the Zhodani intentions to start a Fifth Frontier War within a given period of time (the timeline being good to within 12 months. The Solomani would know to be somewhat prepared, and the Solomani would have THEIR spies in Imperial Space to let the Solomani know of when an attack occurs in the Spinward Marches. Since the Solomani will be better prepared to take advantage of this - assuming they don't jump the gun and start their own war, the Zhodani end up with allies even if the two "governments" aren't co-ordinating their attacks together. Merely having a two front war will change the Imperial's plans dramatically.

Now, what if, the Zhodani, nasty buggers that they are - suggest to the Solomani, the idea of using the Aslans as a deniable attack force? Suggest to the Aslan, that any territory they take from the Vegan Autonomous Region, the Solomani will honor such a feat by acknowledging the Aslans as the rightful owners of the newly taken worlds.

Once the Vargr discover the wars taking place will up their prospects for being able to engage in a little larceny, and the Imperials will have four major issues to deal with.

What about the Julian Protectorate?

I can't help but wonder how one would run such a campaign game. Part of me wonders if trying to use POCKET EMPIRES might not handle the heavy duty lifting so to speak. Couple that with SECTOR FLEET rules from Mongoose, and perhaps something can be made to work.

Just dreaming aloud I guess...

As to how this would impact on a Fleet thread? Imagine all the fun to be had with such a campaign! One could use the High Guard rules, or the Pocket Empire rules for fleet battles.

 

[Whipsnade]

Leaving aside the impossibility of the Aslan acting in unison rather than as the 5000 man Diplomacy game Our Absent Friend Hans always reminded us they were, the Vegan Autonomous Region is over a sector away from the Confederation-Hierate Border.

It's kind of hard to plausible deny any role in assisting a pan-Aslan assault force when said force had to cross the entire Magyar Sector to invade Vega.

 

[GypsyComet]

Hello Folks,
I was wondering whimsically, what would happen should the Solomani forces decide to try and retake Terra.

Has anyone ever gamed that kind of theme for their own players?

It IS one of the theaters of battle in the Rebellion. No help other than a fracturing Imperium required.

 

[Hal]

Leaving aside the impossibility of the Aslan acting in unison rather than as the 5000 man Diplomacy game Our Absent Friend Hans always reminded us they were, the Vegan Autonomous Region is over a sector away from the Confederation-Hierate Border.

It's kind of hard to plausible deny any role in assisting a pan-Aslan assault force when said force had to cross the entire Magyar Sector to invade Vega.

I had thought of the possibility that they might be used as deniable attacks, but the problem as you point out, is that they'd have to be escorted through Solomani territory, making them not as plausible.

Good point. I'd have to take a look see to determine if the Aslan would be participatory in a fragmenting Imperium on its own.

 

[Hal]

It IS one of the theaters of battle in the Rebellion. No help other than a fracturing Imperium required.

I suspect that the hardest part of having a second Solomani Rim war would be co-ordinating a double pronged war at the same time as the fifth frontier war.

In reading the material on the Solomani sphere, I couldn't help but think that the Sol's are even worse off than the Imperials when/where it comes to governing multiple worlds. Then it hit me...

The way the Sol's are written up - they suffer from a lack of cohesion.

I now realize just why I've largely used the Spinward Marches all this time. I can't really see how to make the Solomani Government work as a cohesive whole. The fault may be in me <shrug>

 

[Condottiere]

After Independence, the Solomani had to build up an entire Navy, and their strategists were shackled by politics, in that they weren't allowed to conduct a flexible defence, trading space for time.

 

[Hal]

After Independence, the Solomani had to build up an entire Navy, and their strategists were shackled by politics, in that they weren't allowed to conduct a flexible defence, trading space for time.

I'm not certain that the implications from the Alien Module: Solomani would have this be true.

From what I recall reading, the Solomani Forces had sufficient ships remaining (as in they were not entirely destroyed) and the cost of manpower and materials from the Siege of Terra seems to have placed both the Solomani Forces in that theater and the Imperial Forces in that theater - at par.

The thing is, if the Solomani Rim War was not a negotiated truce per se, but a cessation of hostilities, one would have thought that the Iridium Throne would have said "We'll renew the war in 20 years". The Solomani Forces seems to have lost roughly 25% of their worlds, implying that they may have lost at least 25% of their production capacity. One would have thought that the Imperium definitely has the resources to renew their push.

I think what bothers me somewhat, is that if the Solomani structure is relatively fragmented, how is it that the Solomani were able to resist fanatically against the Imperial onslaught? Either the Solomani were cohesive to begin with and lost it (always a possibility, but in light of fears of a renewal of hostilities, you would think that the Solomani would have fought hard NOT to slide backwards - or, it never had it and the authors of the piece made the storyline fit their needs rather than looking at the world profiles and the proposed "historical background" for the Solomani.

Bringing this back to the fleet issue, might be worth the while to try and figure out if Pocket Empires can be made to work with determining capacity for war, and budgets for a navy, and take it from there. Traveller 5th edition is supposed to be using a cut down version of the Pocket Empires for a fair amount of its economic profiling etc.

I guess in the long run, I'd like to see something akin to the Trillion Credit Squadron scenarios. The difference being, is that we'd use the Pocket Empires rules in lieu of the Trillion Credit Squadron rules. The "fleet budget" aspect would be taken from the rules for translating the RIU's into credits, and taking it from there.

Something to think about I guess.

 

[mike wightman]

I don't think so.

The creation of the Solomani Autonomous zone would have included the transfer of Imperial military assets to the Solomani, especially considering the power of the solomani movement within the Imperial Navy.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Rim War was going to be different from the early Interstellar Wars if only because funneling reinforcements from the broader Imperium is much easier with J4-5 than with only J2. The fight was still vaguely matched because the Solomani who were paying attention knew they were going to draw reprisals eventually. If they had held to some optimist-jingo "failing Imperium" narrative and assumed they could take what they wanted without opposition, they would have trusted their old fleets were enough, and they would not exist following the TL driven shellacking they would have gotten during the Rim War, except as backwater grumblers.

That the Solomani exist as a nation at all strongly supports the assumption they were updating their naval assets alongside the Imperium during the Autonomous period.

 

[Hal]

I don't think so.

The creation of the Solomani Autonomous zone would have included the transfer of Imperial military assets to the Solomani, especially considering the power of the solomani movement within the Imperial Navy.

Which can also bring up another point in a naval war...

How do you prosecute a war when a percentage of the officers MAY be secret Solomani Sympathizers?

I'd have to recheck the time line as to when the SAU (Solomani Autonomous Region) status was lost and when the war actually began.

Paying attention to the time line really pays dividends when trying to craft a story. For instance, I had players who ran their characters through the Naval Generation system, and retired at a point where we had to see just when they were born. Both characters were old enough to have served during the Fourth Frontier War early on in their naval careers (I can't recall if it was the first term entirely, or the second term that was concurrent with the Fourth Frontier War.

What I had to do too, was scramble a bit because the "events" or tasks that were on a year by year generation for each character, required the Imperium to be at WAR somewhere.

As a consequence of that, I created a sort of war (undeclared of course) in which District 268 was the site of some pretty intense fighting.

One would almost wish they had taken some sort of timeline throughout the various locations within the Imperium, and made the rolling for events co-incide with actual time line events.

 

[Whipsnade]

How do you prosecute a war when a percentage of the officers MAY be secret Solomani Sympathizers?

I'd have to recheck the time line as to when the SAU (Solomani Autonomous Region) status was lost and when the war actually began.

You and Robject always ask the best questions, Hal.

Consider the following timeline...

• 704 Solomani Autonomous Region created. Imperium essentially ignores the region for the next 200 years and focuses spinward.
• Latter half of 700s Imperium becomes aware of Consulate control of many psionic institutes and Zho/Vargr plans for war.
• 772 - 798 Series of psionic institute scandals
• 800 - 826 Psionic Suppressions
• 810 - 820 Projected period for Zho/Vargr planned war.
• 871 Solomani Confederation proclaimed. The action is tantamount to independence and is ignored by Imperium.
• Early 900s Increasing unrest in rimward portions of SAR/SC. Systems begin to be reintegrated with Imperium on a case by case basis.
• 940 Solomani Autonomous Region's charter revoked by Imperium. Ignored by Solomani Confederation.
• Latter half of 900s Imperial reintegration efforts increase.
• 979 - 986 Third Frontier War. War is badly managed by Imperium and lost.
• 989 Styryx forced to abdicate.
• 989 Solomani Confederation claims entire Solomani Sphere originally granted to the SAR.
• 990 Imperium declares war.
• 990 - 993 Initial local superiority sees Solomani success along borders.
• 993 Solomani offensive into Old Expanses fails.
• 993 - 998 Stalemate.
• 998 - 1002 Continual Imperial offenses culminate in the invasion of Terra.
• 1002 Ceasefire.
• 1014 Suppression order revoking the charter of the psionic institute on Terra is itself revoked.

Between 704 and 990, the Solomani had nearly three centuries to build up their military and the infrastructure needed to support the same.

From 871 to 990 and especially after 940, the Imperium had generations to purge Solomani sympathizers from it's military and vice versa.

After the Third Frontier War, the Solomani Confederation sees a shaken Imperium which has just lost a war and whose elite political level is in disarray. The Confederation and Imperium have been matching each others' antes since 871 at the very least. Now in 989 the Confederation (mistakenly) decides goes all in.

By 990, the Confederation and Imperium have been beating their drums for over a century. While there will be traitors, moles and sympathizers on both sides, their presence and actions will neither be surprising or unplanned for.

 

[flykiller]

While there will be traitors, moles and sympathizers on both sides, their presence and actions will neither be surprising or unplanned for.

in a high-tech environment one guy can do an awful lot of damage. how would anyone plan for that?

 

[Garnfellow]

Both T20's Fighting Ships of the Solomani Confederation and the Mongoose Traveller Solomani book have very useful information on the Confederation in the run-up to the Rim War War. When the Autonomous Region was declared the Imperium retained Naval and Scout bases within the Sphere and reserved the right to intervene militarily when necessary. But Solomani provocations against Aslan caused the Imperium to gradually withdraw forces from the spinward-rimward regions, and after the Confederation was established Imperial Naval and Scout bases in Solomani space were closed. The Confederation moved quickly to establish its own navy.

 

[Hal]

From the Alien Module 6: pg 10

"The final break came in 679: Zhakirov married Antiama Shiishuginsa, whose family controlled Zirunkariish, the powerful Vilani rnegacorporation. Previous emperors had been Solomani; Zhakirov's marriage ensured that future emperors would be of mixed Vilani-Solomani blood."

It was in 950 that Empress Margaret decreed that the Solomani Autonomous Region was required to reintegrate into the Imperium.

So, for essentially 40 years, the Imperium was definitely of a mind that the Naughty Solomani needed to be brought back into the fold. As a consequence of this (Plus Bill's analysis), I'd say that Bill's right - at least two generations of time passed before the war actively flared up subsequent to the Solomani falling out of favor in a big way.

So, I'd say that there wasn't much (if any!) foot dragging going on with sympathizers.

But that brings me back to my original thoughts...

If the war dragged out to a stalemate of sorts, with the Solomani losing roughly 25% of its worlds (per the book material), then what stopped the Imperium from putting an end to the Solomani Confederation after sufficient time passed for the Imperium to rebuild its fleet and Armies?

I wonder.

Third Frontier War is in 979 - 986.
Solomani Rim War is in 990 - 1002.
Fourth Frontier War is 1082 - 1084.

The third frontier war and Solomani Rim War were essentially two front wars for the Imperium. There is an 80 year period of time in which the Imperium could have put paid to the Soloman Confederacy, assuming that they could rebuild their fleets and train up new armies to replace the casualties of the Rim War

So, it seems odd that the Iridium Throne backs away from putting an end to the Rim based on what has been said thus far.

There has to be something I'm missing!

 

[Whipsnade]

how would anyone plan for that?

The same way we plan for it now and the same way we've always planned for it.

Also AotI gives a few examples of psions, more prosaic body language "readers", and even alien sensory abilities being used to cull "suspects" from the "herd".

Both sides will have had generations to develop, implement, and improve many many methods to vet, test, and remove suspect personnel. Not all suspect personnel but enough.

 

[flykiller]

The same way we plan for it now and the same way we've always planned for it.

so ... not.

heh. remember the uss iowa?

 

[Condottiere]

While interesting, Fighting Ships of the Solomani Confederation doesn't make much sense in the early conduct of the war, nor does the canonical lag in technology.

However, the Imperium had a seven hundred year head start to build up it's naval forces, and a huge GDP to support them; if you don't think that's significant, look up the history of the Royal Navy prior to Dreadnought arms race, and Britain had the capability to bankrupt the Germans if they really pushed it.

Wolfe recalled the border reserve forces, which likely had been politically constrained before the Battle of Dingir, and apparently, fanatical resistance during the siege of Earth bloodied Imperium forces so that the next major engagement could have gone either way.

Depending on how you interpret it Fighting Ships and subsequent references, the Solomani were short on capital ships, something the Imperium would have been unlikely to transfer to them in the first place; they've made up for that since.

 

[Whipsnade]

So, it seems odd that the Iridium Throne backs away from putting an end to the Rim based on what has been said thus far.

DA:3, The History of the Solomani Movement, Page 23:

Initially, the Imperium resorted to diplomacy and bureaucracy to reabsorb scattered worlds into the Imperial mainstream. Ultimately, however, the worlds which had been added to the Sphere since 704 confronted the Imperium with their desire to remain both outside the Imperium and within the influence of Sol. The result was the Solomani Rim War (990 - 1002), an Imperial attempt by more forceful means to make the reintegration stick. (emphasis mine)

With the establishment of the SAR, the Imperium essentially subcontracted out rimward expansion and colonization to the Solomani. Existing inhabited worlds joined the Imperium by joining the SAR. Regions were pacified in the name of the Imperium by the SAR. Systems were surveyed, colonized, and developed under the aegis of the Imperium by the SAR. A large number of systems in the Sphere only know of and interact with the Imperium through the SAR.

It's no accident that the Imperium chose to only reabsorbed the territories coreward of Sol as those systems were more likely to have been part of the Imperium before 704.

 

[Garnfellow]

Depending on how you interpret it Fighting Ships and subsequent references, the Solomani were short on capital ships, something the Imperium would have been unlikely to transfer to them in the first place; they've made up for that since.

For the Solomani, having a battlecruiser navy in the Rim War made some sense -- the Aslan, piracy, and internal dissension were all significant threats, and my understanding is that for a TL 13 force fighting a TL 14 force, more smaller ships (and thus more spinals) might be a rational strategy.

Following the Rim War the Solomani appear to have gone all-in on capital ships. Sector Fleet mentions they actually have a shortage of smaller ships in 1105.

 

[Hal]

Both T20's Fighting Ships of the Solomani Confederation and the Mongoose Traveller Solomani book have very useful information on the Confederation in the run-up to the Rim War War. When the Autonomous Region was declared the Imperium retained Naval and Scout bases within the Sphere and reserved the right to intervene militarily when necessary. But Solomani provocations against Aslan caused the Imperium to gradually withdraw forces from the spinward-rimward regions, and after the Confederation was established Imperial Naval and Scout bases in Solomani space were closed. The Confederation moved quickly to establish its own navy.

Fighting Ships of the Solomani Confederation - is that to the Solomani what SECTOR FLEET is to the Imperial Navy?

I have TA-7, and am re-reading it now. I remember getting it so that I could attempt to have class names and ship designs worth converting into GURPS TRAVELLER analogs. I just never knew the Solomani version of Fighting ships was available (Never really used T20 to be honest with you).