Ine Givar

[Irsan]

I'm having trouble imagining what these guys are supposed to be like. Are they supposed to be real terrorists (IRA bombings, Hamas suicide bombers) or just terrorist wannabes (Red Army Faction)? Are they more paramilitary (Moro Liberation Front) or more criminal (Japanese Red Army)? Do they attack politicallly/economically significant targets or random terror attacks? Are they really linked to the Rule of Terra terrorist group?

I know that I should be free to make up whatever I want, but I want to know what everyone else perceives the Ine Givar as.

 

[notagoodusername]

They are as varied as the worlds they operate on. A cop-out I know, bu true. There are some hard-core groups that make Osama Bin-Laden look like Mr Nice-Guy, whereas there are some groups who would if pushed 'unleash a major, and I mean major, leaflet campaign*'.

Shane

*= Bonus point for the quote source.

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Daemonhunter:
I'm having trouble imagining what these guys are supposed to be like. Are they supposed to be real terrorists (IRA bombings, Hamas suicide bombers) or just terrorist wannabes (Red Army Faction)? Are they more paramilitary (Moro Liberation Front) or more criminal (Japanese Red Army)? Do they attack politicallly/economically significant targets or random terror attacks? Are they really linked to the Rule of Terra terrorist group?

I know that I should be free to make up whatever I want, but I want to know what everyone else perceives the Ine Givar as.

I have envisioned a campaign set just prior to the Fifth Frontier War or perhaps just after with the Iggies set as a very dangerous subversive terroist group.

I set them in their tactics as a cross between the IRA and the Moro Liberation Front.

They attack IMTU both military and non-military targets.

Some talk as if it is impossible to play a heroic campaign in Traveller. This is of course crap.

Imagine a campaign revolving around rooting out a major terroist cell and in the process saving worlds from Iggie promoted strife, cities from bombings and individuals from hostage situations. Maybe the group does not even want to be a hero group. Perhaps, they become the relunctant anti-heroes of late 20th century favor just travellers trying to make it back home or traders just trying to make a buck. Instead, they become embroiled in intrigue and targetted by the terroist group in the process.

Just some ideas.

 

[BeRKA]

The Ine Givar are heroic Freedom Fighters, that fights the evil Imperium!!!

(The Solomani made a movie about them called STAR WARS.)

http://zho.berka.com/ine-givar/

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by BeRKA:
The Ine Givar are heroic Freedom Fighters, that fights the evil Imperium!!!

(The Solomani made a movie about them called STAR WARS.)

http://zho.berka.com/ine-givar/

Have you read the Library Data on Star Wars yet?

The 3rd Imperium's take on the movie Star Wars .

 

[BeRKA]

Yes, very funny...

The library entry looks quite different in our (zhodani) database.

 

[ccmarcellus]

They are as varied as the worlds they operate on. A cop-out I know, bu true. There are some hard-core groups that make Osama Bin-Laden look like Mr Nice-Guy, whereas there are some groups who would if pushed 'unleash a major, and I mean major, leaflet campaign*'.

Shane

*= Bonus point for the quote source.

That would be Arnold Judas Rimmer's answer to deal with the Polymorph in Red Dwarf, after his Anger emotion had been sucked away from the Monster...

"Alphabetti Spaghetti???!!!"

 

[Pagan priest]

Just to kep things lively, there are folks that do not consider the IRA to be terrorists at all. They are a gorilla army, trying to end centuries of English occupation, genocide and racial cleansing.

No doubt the Ine Givar see themselves in a similar manner.

 

[notagoodusername]

Originally posted by Chris Marcellus:
That would be Arnold Judas Rimmer's answer to deal with the Polymorph in Red Dwarf, after his Anger emotion had been sucked away from the Monster...

"Alphabetti Spaghetti???!!!"

Quite right! A point for you Chris.

Shane

 

[notagoodusername]

Originally posted by Pagan priest:
Just to kep things lively, there are folks that do not consider the IRA to be terrorists at all. They are a gorilla army, trying to end centuries of English occupation, genocide and racial cleansing.

No doubt the Ine Givar see themselves in a similar manner.

Oh absolutely - one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. But the point of the thread is about how people have the Ine Givar operate in thier Traveller universe, not the IRA. Real world terrorism opinions can get people worked up and more than 'lively', so let's not got here, huh?

So, to steer back on thread, the key point is to create a consistant feel to the Ine Givar, with vcariation for different cells. For example (off the top of my head), they all use violent means, mostly bombings, they all claim credit, usually through graffiti. However, some cells are led by real extremists who bomb anyone, whereas some only bomb military and security targets (in a twisted rules of war thing). Some send warnings in advance claiming credit, others send railing political diatribes after the fatc gloating baout the casualties.

Set up an Ine Givar feel with variation enough to keep players on their toes.

Shane

 

[kaladorn]

Ine Givar IMTU:

They are a collection of the disaffected, the Zho Symps (gotta put me one in there called Berka ), and some general malcontents, interspersed with a few SORAG agents. They were smaller before and after the FWs and creep up a lot during the FWs as the Zhos pump some bucks in to making them a pain in the Empire's midrift. Of course, when the war abates, the Zhos throttle back spending and the cells either go rogue or go dormant until the next episode.

So during peacetime, they're a low level threat, with enough impact to keep the name out there. They bomb some stuff, make some people disappear, etc.

In my current campaign, a cell on Inthe is trying to acquire bioweapons (and failing, thanks to the players who decided to sell them back to SuSag). They'll show up again as an on-going menace, since they now have an axe to grind with the PCs if they get the chance (at least that cell does).

I think during wartime, they escalate - they have more SORAG agents infiltrated, more money funnelled in, arms funnelled in, cadre... and the net effect is greater degrees of coordinated activity.

BTW, the IRA have been called a guerilla army. Michael Ignatief has done some good work lately in analysing the ethics of strong vs. weak conflicts and asymetric warfare and how this pertains to rules of war and human rights. I'll leave the details for you to investigate But they are clearly not a GORILLA army. That'd require geneering, though it probably is possible (a la Planet of the Apes) in Traveller.

Oh, and an even better take on Star Wars and Rebel Scu...err.... Heroes:


The Case For The Empire

 

[Irsan]

Wow... Thanks for everyone's POV on the Ine Givar. Sorry, had to use real world equivalents (IRA, etc.). I was just trying to make it clear...

 

[kafka47]

I am sorry that I am late on this topic, but, I have always imagined that the Ine Givar as a political movement for reforming the Imperium.

Their origins lay in the First Frontier War on the worlds that Zhos occupied. The Zhos knew that they could not absorb these worlds into the Consulate without substantial social engineering and also sensed that the Imperial threat was real. Therefore, as part of a large range strategy, it was felt that it was neccessary to introduce more democracy into the Imperium...believing the theory that:

"no two democracies have ever fought one another in history." (disclaimer: this is an accepted theory but does not reflect my beliefs.)

Therefore, it was neccessary to build a movement that could be then favorable to the Consulate. Given the frontier mentality of the Marches, it was deemed that these worlds would be suitable for democracy and want to throw off the yoke of the Imperium and create a series border/buffer states which would help protect the Consulate from the expanding Imperium.

However, the Imperium expanded much more rapidly into the Marches than Zhodani strategists imagined and the social base for democracy was weakened by the Imperium's guarantee of each world's autonomy. Therefore, the Ine Givar was one of those projects that kept Sorag and the intelligence community active but was abandon by the High Council.

At various times, the Party of War and the Party of Expanision came to dominate the Zhodani High Council and at that time the Ine Givar cells on various Imperial worlds would recieve more funding but then again this was often disguised as aid for the cultural development of these worlds.

Although, all cells used the name: "Ine Givar" there were numerous factions and disputes about the overall aims as in any revolutionary movement. These would often engage in open warfare against each other as they did versus the common enemy of the Imperium.

So as a bunch of idealists the Ine Givar hoped that only through terrorist actions could they "awaken" the Imperial masses into creating a real revolution. Unfortunately, for them there was no model for them to follow, as clearly the Zhodani had long abandoned the idea of buffer states, in favor of, strategic warfare. Therefore, the more isolationist forces within the Ine Givar began to win over the more moderate forces and by the Rebellion hit...the radicals saw it as the perfect opportunity to launch an offensive to end all offensives and bring about Demosracy.

In short, we can see the Ine Givar as the victims of a power struggle not entirely wrong but not entirely right. A morally ambigity that Traveller is famous for and allow the referee to create a whole subculture that opposes the Imperium (as suggested by Loren and early CT which often set players against the Empire).

In trying to extrapolate real world examples, one could witness the New Left and the subsequent degeneration into groups such as the Weathermen.

 

[Elliot]

When I was a student I read a pamphlet called 'This is the Animal Liberation Front'. One thing that struck me in an interview with a ALF activist is that he/she said that there was no ALF in terms of organisation but that when a person caused criminal damage to a McDonald's or stole lab dogs from a laboratory the ALF had acted. The pamphlet (which inspired people to do such acts) ultimately stated that the ALF is not a cell organisation but a name of convenience for extreme animal rights activists.

I kind of think Ine Givar might ultimately turn out to be such an 'organisation'.

PS the above does not in anyway whatsoever represent my views and I put it here for comparison with the Ine Givar and not a debate on animal rights!

 

[kaladorn]

The thing the last two posters have hit on is that such organizations are somewhat amorphous. Partly because it suits their purposes, partly because that's just what they are. This means that there may or may not be a strong cell structure or heirarchy, operations may be tightly coupled to a command structure or utterly independent or somewhere between the extremes.

And the organization may really be a collection of disparate fringe groups, from real reformers, psionic symps, Zho Agent Provocateurs, and other folks just vying for power or with related ideological issues somewhat tangent to the main bent.

Also, outside agencies, including the intelligence agencies of the Consulate, the Imperium, and all the smaller planetary or national governments, and of course the media, will each spin the situation to their own purposes. I'm sure a number of "Ine Givar" activities were not organized by the Ine Givar..... and some activities organized by the IG were hushed up or never claimed.

That's what is great about this kind of situation - it is fluid and unpredictable and anyone can pretty much make of it what they want....

 

[kafka47]

The Ine Givar, is also to provide a continuity from CT to TNE. The role this organization may play in the Spinward States would be of interest to me.

Could we postualate the Zhodani exodus link up with the renegade cells of the Ine Givar and cause the fragmentation of the Regency?

The Ine Givar may also have links to the Dulinor faction in the Rebellion milieu? (which could be explored in the MT section).

Far from being a dead issue, the different paths of the Ine Givar could take the players in directions that they never imagined...

 

[Elliot]

Kafka - once again a good set of plots not realised in GDW etc sources.

I think that the Dulinor/Ine Givar is a runner - but that Ine Givar would hijack the Dulinor position for its own ends and Dulinor (who so loved the Imperium that he took its only begotten son) would condemn Ine Givar immediately.

But the splinter Sons of Dulinor/Ine Givar chapter could be a real cause of discredit. It makes you think that playing MT in Dulinor territory was an opportunity missed when MT was about. And, to MT's detractors, it shows that MT was pregnant with PC RPG campaigns the significance of we occasionally stumble upon only now.

 

[kaladorn]

MT/Rebellion had *lots* of room for many many intriguing campaigns (I've played most of my games in that era or leading up to it and through it).

The Ine Givar and Dulinor? Hmmm. The kinds of reforms Dulinor wanted would be consistent with what one might imagine some of the IG might want. And SORAG would love to have underwritten Dulinor's slow turn towards a power thrust that would cause Civil War. They're just as happy with a shattered Empire.

 

[kafka47]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
MT/Rebellion had *lots* of room for many many intriguing campaigns (I've played most of my games in that era or leading up to it and through it).

Elliot, you should have been in my Traveller group in the 1980s. You would have certainly had a great time...

I think that most of the shock of the Rebellion was what got most people down. But, I had always realized that the Rebellion/MT was the Imperial Campaign, therefore, it was the perfect gaming opportunity.

The secret of MT, like the Secret of the Ancients in CT was not to focus on the Rebellion as a wargaming exercise but rather as the condensation of all the best that was CT without having to purchase the hundreds of dollars worth of stuff to sustain it. The warfare was to sort of legalize what did not make sense in CT's Imperial Campaign (unless you were playing in the days of the Frontier Wars).

The real culprit in MegaTraveller was that always got the short end of the stick because of its errata & the support that was offered in Challenge. But enough ink has been wasted on this topic...

The Ine Givar and Dulinor? Hmmm. The kinds of reforms Dulinor wanted would be consistent with what one might imagine some of the IG might want. And SORAG would love to have underwritten Dulinor's slow turn towards a power thrust that would cause Civil War. They're just as happy with a shattered Empire.

My only objection would be that the Consulate wanted a weakened Imperium not a Shattered Imperium.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Kafka47:
The real culprit in MegaTraveller was that always got the short end of the stick because of its errata & the support that was offered in Challenge. But enough ink has been wasted on this topic...

Well, the Errata was bad for one or two of the chargens (merchies esp) and for the gearheads. Otherwise the game still worked.

My only objection would be that the Consulate wanted a weakened Imperium not a Shattered Imperium.

Sure, but
1. they could move in if a power vacuum occured
2. they'd expect factions to form, probably one on their end of the universe under Norris - this is probably what happened in the last major Civil War in the Empire
3. Their territorial security aims are served either way - no major enemy threat... maybe some small independent ones....