Independent Game or d20 Supplement?

[lamar]

Is T20 going to be an independent, complete game, or is it going to be a d20 supplement that requires use of the D&D Player's Handbook?

The reason I ask is that some of the preview material seems to indicate that it's going to be a complete game designed under the Open Gaming License, but at the same time the d20 System logo is displayed on various pages of the site. Using the d20 System logo license on an item means that it can't have a character generation system or an experience point system, and I'm a bit unclear about what's allowed under the Open Gaming License, even.

Just curious. I wasn't able to find a good answer anywhere on the site.

L.

 

[hunter]

It will be a d20 product.

Hunter

 

[Antony]

The reply is a little unclear. Of course it is a d20 product, but is it stand alone, or will you need other items to play it?

 

[notagoodusername]

By the nature of the OGL all D20 products require the D&D Player's Handbook to be used.

 

[hunter]

What Shane said

Hunter

 

[phydaux]

I think the point is still being missed.

For example, some d20 world books, when refering to the Ambidexterity feat will define the Ambidexterity feat in their pages, and thus "stand alone" without players having to look up rules in another volume. Others will simply say "See the Player's Handbook" and thus do not "stand alone."

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by phydaux:
I think the point is still being missed.

For example, some d20 world books, when refering to the Ambidexterity feat will define the Ambidexterity feat in their pages, and thus "stand alone" without players having to look up rules in another volume. Others will simply say "See the Player's Handbook" and thus do not "stand alone."

No d20 book can 'stand alone'. It will always require the PHB for initial character development and applying the effects of experience. There is no way around that at all. If it has the d20 logo, by default it will require the D&D 3rd Edition Player's Handbook.

Now that said, about the ONLY thing you will need the PHB for in T20 is for initial characters, how to go up in level, and maybe some of the more advanced melee combat rules. The only skills and feats that don't appear in T20 are those that are more esoteric fantasy and melee combat oriented ones.

Hunter

 

[Gallowglass]

Originally posted by hunter:
What Shane said

Hunter

Actually, shouldn't he have said "By the d20 System Trademark License"? I thought it was the d20 STL that let you use WotC's trademarks (the d20 logo etc), the OGL doesn't mention any of them explicitly? I was under the impression that if you were _just_ doing an Open Gaming License version of Traveller, you _could_ make it completely stand alone, but it couldn't carry any of the d20 System trademarks...

 

[notagoodusername]

Actually yes, I should have said "By the D20 System Trademark License", however I'd just gotten up and was having a stupid moment. :-(

Thanks for correcting me Gallowglass!

For those interested, this is what the D20 STL says in the plainest terms:

1. The trademark for D20 and the logos is Wizard's.
2. They grant you the right to use the trademark stuff as long as you play by their rules.
3. If you use the d20 STL you agree not to contest ownership of the trademarks and wizards bits.
4. If you breach the STL you have 45 days to sort it out to wizard's satisfaction.
5. If you haven't sorrted it in 45 days they can consider your license terminated with no further notice.
6. If you are terminated you stop using or producing stuff bearing the d20 logo and using the d20 STL, plus you arrange for all distributers of your stuff to destroy what is left. You pay for it all.
7. If you don't do the above you can be dumped in a legal stewpot.
8. Wizards can change the STL Logos when they want and its up to you to change to comply. They don't have to notify you of changes. However, you don't have to change your already produced stuff.
9. Wizards can change the STL itself when they want and its up to you to change to comply within 90 days. They don't have to notify you of changes. However, you don't have to change your already produced stuff.
10. You can update your Confirmation Card (publisher details) any time you want.
11. Address for correspondence given.
12. Wizards have no obligation to provide you with support or maintinence for the STL.
13. Wizards isn't responsible for the content of products put out under this license, or what folks do with it.

Also along with this are the rules Hunter mentioned:

1. You may *not* change any set Defined Term (including stuff like Armour Class, Level, the alignments, etc), however you can add your own (like Defence, Prestige, etc).
2. You may *not* include a description of how to create a character, but may include options to be used in the same (such as feats, skills, etc).
3. You may *not* include a description of the process to follow when assigning or applying the effects of experience to a character, but may list the level-based abilites for classes and stuff.
4. You have to have at least 5% OGL content in any product.
5. You must clearly display that it is a d20 System Licenced Product and that it is covered by the license found at www.wizards.com.

There are some other rules and guides, but this is the core of it (for more info look at the d20 section of www.wizards.com).

I aplogise for boring those who wern't interested, but hopefully this should clear up some questions.

Take care,

Shane

 

[NDS]

Thanks to all above for the explanations but I have one more question. Since "Star Wars" and "Call of Cathulu" are d20 Products published by Wizards of the Coast do they contain the rules for initial character development and applying the effects of experience? I would prefer to get one of those if I have the choice.

 

[Secrect Cow Level]

Yes, STAR WARS AND CoC have complete character creation rules. Wizards as the license owner can do whatever they want with d20. It's their game system, therefore all games they publish have all the rules under their covers (you do not need the D&D 3rd edition PLAYER'S HANDBOOK to play STAR WARS or even WHEEL OF TIME). Hope this helps.

 

[DrSkull]

Originally posted by NDS:
Thanks to all above for the explanations but I have one more question. Since "Star Wars" and "Call of Cathulu" are d20 Products published by Wizards of the Coast do they contain the rules for initial character development and applying the effects of experience? I would prefer to get one of those if I have the choice.

I'd say that Star Wars would probably be a better bet, since Call of Cthulhu d20 only has 1 class (or 2 depending on how you look at it) thus Star Wars is a better analogy on how Traveller will work.

Really, the info "required" from the PHB is pretty thin, and if you had an experienced D20 player go over it with you, it'd just take a few minutes to get what you're missing.

 

[lamar]

Thanks for clearing that up, folks.

I'm afraid that it's a little disappointing, really. I had been hoping that T20 was a complete and independent game, as I've been mostly unhappy with the d20 supplements out there.

Ah, well. It sure looks cool, anyway.

L.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by lamar:
Thanks for clearing that up, folks.

I'm afraid that it's a little disappointing, really. I had been hoping that T20 was a complete and independent game, as I've been mostly unhappy with the d20 supplements out there.

Ah, well. It sure looks cool, anyway.

L.

Don't despair too greatly, there is nothing to prevent us from putting out a free supplement without the d20 logo that contains this material. There really isn't a whole lot to it, so we probably would end up fleshing it out a bit with some alternate rules.

Hunter

 

[RabidVargr]

[/QUOTE]Don't despair too greatly, there is nothing to prevent us from putting out a free supplement without the d20 logo that contains this material. There really isn't a whole lot to it, so we probably would end up fleshing it out a bit with some alternate rules.

Hunter[/QUOTE]

This is something I would look very much foward to seeing, as I'm pretty much not inclined to purchase DnD3 just so I can play Traveller. $36+$30= too damn much for a military guy. I've got beer to buy! ($36+0 would work out just fine for me)

RV

 

[Vargas]

Not being conversant with D20, does this mean that you have to buy both the PHB and the ~$50 Traveller D20 book?

 

[DrSkull]

Originally posted by Vargas:
Not being conversant with D20, does this mean that you have to buy both the PHB and the ~$50 Traveller D20 book?

Technically yes. Actually, probably not.

If you spend 20 minutes talking to someone who knows d20 games you can probably get everything you need from the PHB without buying it.

In fact it is probably easier to get the big picture on how d20 works from ENworld or other message boards than it is to try to parse it out of the PHB text.

From what I can see, it is only the bare legal minimum that has been left out of the T20 handbook, there isn't a lot of need for constant reference to the PHB.

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by Vargas:
Not being conversant with D20, does this mean that you have to buy both the PHB and the ~$50 Traveller D20 book?

Well, you can also simply download the System Reference Document , which will tell you everything except how to create characters and how to increase levels. Both are pretty obvious once you look at the information that is allowed in d20 licenced products though.

(In fact, those rules are such a small portion of the total D&D3 Player's handbook that someone could probably summarize them in a review under fair use doctrine...)

 

[gardclan]

When you're dealing with somebody else's copyrights you pretty much have to play by their rules, unless you want to end up in court.

However:

Fair use doctrine allows you to make photocopies of any book, up to ten non-contiguous pages. (Which must not comprise a "significant" portion of the work.) Any more than that requires a written release from the publisher. It does not allow you to incorporate those pages into any other published work however.

If you want more than that, you'll need to consult a lawyer, or get permission from the publisher. (See, I DID learn something useful from working at kinkos while in college!)

Since I already own the 3E books, I'll probably just copy the relevant (hopefully few) pages and keep 'em with the T20 book (Or more likely just carry both books).

This is small help for those of you whom don't own the PHB, but at least you have an option until you can afford both books.

 

[Psion]

Well, I think the most important missing things are:

- How to initially generate characters

Summary: Roll (4d6 drop low) 6 times, distribute between the 6 stats. (If you have ever played D&D, you know this)

- Experience Advancement

Summary: Experience to reach the next level = experience to reach the last level + 1000 x current level.

Or, in short, XP to reach level N+1 = (N^2 + N) x 500.

- How to allocate skills

Summary:
- Each class has a skill point per level number. You add your intelligence bonus to this number. At first level, you get 4 times this total.
- Skills are divided into class and cross class. Some skills are exclusive. Each class has a class skill list.
-- (Class skills) - cost 1 skill point per rank. You cannot have more ranks than your character level + 4.
-- (Cross class skill) - cost 2 skill points per rank. You can only have half as many ranks as a class skill.
-- (Exclusive skill) - you can only buy exclusive skills if it is a class skills for you. The maximum ranks for an exclusive skill only counts the levels of classes that have the skill as a class skill, not the levels of all classes.

I think those are the big "must not touch" areas. Some games refer to the core books more heavily (for example, Dragonstar is basically an extension of the PHB and doesn't duplicate anything). Hunter mentioned that there might be a few feats in the core book you are missing out on, but not knowing what they are, I can't summarize those. Other than that, if the above makes sense to you, you should be good.
If you don't want the D&D PHB but would still like a reference, I think the Star Wars, Wheel of Time, or Call of Cthulhu books would serve, as they are self contained. Using CoC as a reference for class skills might be a bit confusing, as it uses a slightly different technique.

Another (cheaper) option is that some of the issues of Dungeon/Polyhedron contain mini-games that have the detailed gouge on the above rules, and only run $6. Look for the ones that have the Pulp Heroes, Shadow Chasers, or Thunderball Rally Games, as I think those have most of what you need. You might even be able to find an older issue at a knock-off price if your FLGS maintains a bargain bin.