Independence of low-TL worlds

[epicenter00]

Caledon Ventures and Tlasayerlaahel are competing for the tlaospice market.

This one is pretty easy I think. It's that there's another group that may have sufficient resources make life difficult for the conqueror.

Corporations are ultimately about the bottom line. If the resource is valuable enough they might attempt to take over, but a company isn't going to pay a single credit if it doesn't feel it there's a return for it. There's examples of RL corporations getting into wars and so on over resources that may not be as profitable (look at examples of fruit companies in various countries on Earth), but such companies tend not to stay in business long or stay in the unprofitable war for long before cooler heads prevail.

Corporate war and violent action in markets is a very fateful line to cross. Once you "go there" then whatever violence you can afford becomes "okay" for everyone involved and there's usually a very rapid escalation in the level of violence as well as the areas where the violence is occurring (losing on the world? why not assassinate some enemy corporate officers on their homeworld?) That kind of violence spirals out of control and has a likelihood for becoming very unprofitable and the end result very uncertain for the corporations involved. This kind of uncertainty is an anathema to corporations, which usually like peaceful and stable conditions so they can do things like set up predictable (and therefore cheaper) supply flows and their customers are happier because consistent order fulfillment. In addition, corporate war can be disastrous for PR purposes. Some reporter or other group gets wind of the situation and starts talking about how sentient beings are dying for some corporation's profits? Consumers tend to frown on that kind of thing, especially if it is for luxury goods that are not a captive market (like addictive narcotics). Consumers pressure governments. Governments sanction corporations. It's all very bad for business.

In this case, if Caledon or Tlasayerlaahel tried something, the other probably has sufficient resources to make things very unprofitable for the other. If conditions and the two get into a "real" corporate war, the end result is that they'll probably just weaken each other to the point that other entities might come in and brush both of them aside. Ultimately, their accountants can pretty easily look at the bottom line and go, "Yeah, it's better to just compete with them through non-violent means, it's much more predictable."

Other examples are more difficult of low TL non-victimization are harder to justify. Nihilisitc wildcards like a bunch of middle-aged or geriatric war veterans going through identity crisis, alternately being mercenaries, terrorists, and merchants as their sociopathic whims take them (eg, player characters) are a lot more dangerous since if things get too hot, they can just jump out and go somewhere far, far away.

 

[McPerth]

I keep thinking that the main advantage for such a planet to retain its Independence is the balance of power in the region.

If the ressource is so profitable, no one will want others to have its monopoly, and so every one will keep away of taking it just out of fear about other's reaction. it also might have its independence garanteed by its powerful neighbours, even if none of them is truly its ally (as Belgium with the Treaty on London, in 1839).

But if the situation is lawless enough, there is only one so powerful player in the zone, or if the powers in the zone agree about a "civilized" way to take lower TL planets to "civilize" them, they can become free game wasily, as happened with the colonial rushes by the European powers in the XV-XVIII centuries or in the Victorian age, or as it happens in Diaspora in HT (MT:Atrogator's guide to Diaspora Module) with the Ecclesiasty of Narquel, or the Vassalry Judicate(while this one is checked by the Unión of Suffren).

 

[flykiller]

Roakhoi is well over one subsector outside Imperium borders.

then the imperium will use proxies. being prohibited from referring to any recent examples I will cite the Flying Tigers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers) - they disbanded after 1942 and thus meet the 1945 criteria.

 

[Dulinor]

Thanks all for your answers.

For more ideas, have a group of players run the mercenaries and see what they come up with.

It'll probably end this way (without me asking...).

 

[JBRocky]

Ok lets do this the quick way and take a look at Cuba just 90 miles of Florida. They have some top of the line MiG-29's or 31's I forget which ones but lack the TL to make or maintain them. So how did they get them you ask very simple they bought them from Russia.

Now this same TL4 world has no way of producing High Tech stuff but if they have a valuable resource they do have the cash to get it. Just because its a Low tech world does not mean they don't import stuff it just means they can't make it there. So if it is a poor world it might be hard to come by but if it is a Rich world while they might not have the manufacturing base but the rich do have all they need. Look at TV show Firefly for a good example of some of this.

 

[Jame]

Ok lets do this the quick way and take a look at Cuba just 90 miles of Florida. They have some top of the line MiG-29's or 31's I forget which ones but lack the TL to make or maintain them. So how did they get them you ask very simple they bought them from Russia.

Now this same TL4 world has no way of producing High Tech stuff but if they have a valuable resource they do have the cash to get it. Just because its a Low tech world does not mean they don't import stuff it just means they can't make it there. So if it is a poor world it might be hard to come by but if it is a Rich world while they might not have the manufacturing base but the rich do have all they need. Look at TV show Firefly for a good example of some of this.

I would suggest that such a world as this, the spice world, would increase its TL pretty quickly. Just to prevent someone taking it over.

THAT would likely be what they'd do with their wealth.

 

[Timerover51]

I guess one thing that puzzles me about the comments is the automatic assumption that it is easy for even a small to medium size group of mercenaries to take over a planet that does not want to be taken over.

 

[Vladika]

I guess one thing that puzzles me about the comments is the automatic assumption that it is easy for even a small to medium size group of mercenaries to take over a planet that does not want to be taken over.

I laugh about that assumption myself. These two links show two widely differing outcomes and are fuel for many of the above fires.

http://colonyofcommodus.wordpress.c...ry-who-invaded-mexico-with-an-army-of-45-men/

http://www.ipsnews.net/1995/10/comoro-islands-goodbye-until-the-next-mercenary-invasion/

 

[rancke]

I guess one thing that puzzles me about the comments is the automatic assumption that it is easy for even a small to medium size group of mercenaries to take over a planet that does not want to be taken over.

That would depend on the size of the population. A well-supplied well-organized group of mercenaries should be able to take over a place with considerably more people than themselves, especially if they have a bit of finesse. They coud do a Pizzaro, allying with one section of the population against another. The first half of a Pizzaro, that is. I trust that alluding to 'Pizzaro -- The End' absolves me of ignoring the possibility of screwing up such a takeover attempt.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

I laugh about that assumption myself. These two links show two widely differing outcomes and are fuel for many of the above fires.

http://colonyofcommodus.wordpress.c...ry-who-invaded-mexico-with-an-army-of-45-men/

http://www.ipsnews.net/1995/10/comoro-islands-goodbye-until-the-next-mercenary-invasion/

I knew about William Walker a long time ago, and the key factor there is that he did not succeed with any of his attempts, and also he grabbed areas that were not close travel-wise to the center of power of the nation whose territory he grabbed. Denard had some help internally in the Comorro's, but he was also dealing with an island group, and not that wealthy a one at that.

For that matter, you have Frederick Forsythe's novel, Dogs of War, but again, in that story he was tapping into an indigenous group for support.

Smuggling weapons in works both ways as well. Unless a mercenary group has the ability to put in a planet-wide radar system for detecting all ships landing, which would run into a far amount of money (and if they had those funds, why are they still mercenaries), the local population is going to be able to get their own weaponry.

As I said in an earlier post, Tech Level 4 does not mean that the local population has weapons restricted to Tech Level 4. Also, mercenaries still have to eat and breath, and take their Battle Armor off at times. In that sort of situation, the mercenaries will control precisely where they physically have men, similar to the situation of the Turkish Army in the Hejaz in World War 1. They controlled the railway to Medina, Medina, and points north to Amman and Deraa, but the Arabs/Bedouin controlled everything else. When the Turks strayed off of the line, they had their heads handed to them. You had a very similar situation in the Spanish Peninsula during the Napoleonic Wars, where the French pretty much controlled only the areas their troops were physically in, while the Spanish guerillas controlled much of the country side. While Napoleon could survive the "Spanish Ulcer" for a while, he did have a strong power base in France, a mercenary group is going to have a far harder time in replacing lost men and equipment, but especially men.

 

[rancke]

There's also the example of James Brooke who with the crew of a 142-ton schooner made himself Rajah of Sarawak.

I have only a vague notion of how many men Brooke had -- perhaps he shipped supernumeraries too. I can't find the size of Sarawak's population at the time either. It must have been a good deal more than you could fit into a schooner, though.


Hans

 

[Timerover51]

There's also the example of James Brooke who with the crew of a 142-ton schooner made himself Rajah of Sarawak.

I have only a vague notion of how many men Brooke had -- perhaps he shipped supernumeraries too. I can't find the size of Sarawak's population at the time either. It must have been a good deal more than you could fit into a schooner, though.


Hans

Do you mean this James Brooke?

The Expedition to Borneo of H.M.S. Dido, by Henry Keppel and James Brooke

The following is a description of his ship.

“On the 27th October, 1838, the Royalist left the river; and, after a succession of heavy gales, finally quitted the land on the 16th December. I may here state some farther particulars, to enable my readers to become better acquainted with her and her equipment. The Royalist, as already noticed, belonged to the Royal Yacht Squadron, which in foreign ports admits her to the same privileges as a man-of-war, and enables her to carry a white ensign. She sails fast, is conveniently fitted up, is armed with six six-pounders, a number of swivels, and small arms of all sorts, carries four boats, and provisions for four months. Her principal defect is being too sharp in the floor, which, in case of taking the ground, greatly increases the risk; but I comfort myself with the reflection that a knowledge of this will lead to redoubled precaution to prevent such a disaster. She is withal a good sea-boat, and as well calculated for the service as could be desired.

“I believe I have availed myself of every means within my reach to render my visit agreeable to the rajah. I carry with me many presents which are reported [10]to be to his liking; gaudy silks of Surat, scarlet cloth, stamped velvet, gunpowder, &c., beside a large quantity of confectionery and sweets, such as preserved ginger, jams, dates, syrups, and to wind up all, a huge box of China toys for his children! I have likewise taken coarse nankeen to the amount of 100l. value, as the best circulating medium in the country. Beside the above mentioned preparations, I carry letters from the government of Singapore, to state, as far as can be done, the objects of my voyage, and to caution the rajah to take every care of my safety and that of my men. The Board of Commerce have at the same time entrusted me with a letter and present to him, to thank him for his humanity to the crew of an English vessel wrecked on this coast. The story, as I had it from the parties shipwrecked, is highly creditable to his humanity. The vessel, called the Napoleon, was wrecked on the bar of Sarāwak river in the northeast monsoon. The people were saved with difficulty, and remained in the jungle, where they were after a time discovered by some Malays. Muda Hassim, on receiving intelligence of this, sent down and brought them to his town, collected all that he could recover from the wreck, clothed them handsomely, and fed them well for several months, and, on an opportunity arriving, sent them back to Singapore free of expense.

The whole account is available on Project Gutenberg. The fastest way to find it is to search "Dido".

 

[rancke]

Do you mean this James Brooke?

I mean the one I linked to. So that's a yes.


Hans

 

[aramis]

That would depend on the size of the population. A well-supplied well-organized group of mercenaries should be able to take over a place with considerably more people than themselves, especially if they have a bit of finesse. They coud do a Pizzaro, allying with one section of the population against another. The first half of a Pizzaro, that is. I trust that alluding to 'Pizzaro -- The End' absolves me of ignoring the possibility of screwing up such a takeover attempt.


Hans

Historically, a 1:50 troop:local_Civilians ratio seems to be fairly normative, and a 1:100 to hold for the first several years, eventually dropping to the 1:1000 of typical policing. All of which are arguable by specific cases, but those numbers are fairly middle of the road for each category.

Note that militia don't count as civilians.

 

[Timerover51]

Historically, a 1:50 troop:local_Civilians ratio seems to be fairly normative, and a 1:100 to hold for the first several years, eventually dropping to the 1:1000 of typical policing. All of which are arguable by specific cases, but those numbers are fairly middle of the road for each category.

Note that militia don't count as civilians.

Hmm, 1/1000 typical policing looks awfully light considering the size of some of the US city police forces.

As for your other figures, then for a world of say 700,000 residents, you will need 7,000 troops to reach the 1/100 ratio. That in not a small mercenary unit by any means, as that would be the fighting force of about a division. Then add of the the needed supporting troops, which would roughly be in the ration of 1.5 to 2.5 support troops per fighting troop.

When doing logistic planning for a large force, you do in on a division-slice basis, figuring that each division is going to need a set proportion of the Corps, Army, and Communication Zone troops. For units smaller than a division, the ratio goes up due to their limited ability to operate independently, unless designed that way. If designed that way, the ratio of teeth to tail in the unit drops.

 

[aramis]

Hmm, 1/1000 typical policing looks awfully light considering the size of some of the US city police forces.

As for your other figures, then for a world of say 700,000 residents, you will need 7,000 troops to reach the 1/100 ratio. That in not a small mercenary unit by any means, as that would be the fighting force of about a division. Then add of the the needed supporting troops, which would roughly be in the ration of 1.5 to 2.5 support troops per fighting troop.

When doing logistic planning for a large force, you do in on a division-slice basis, figuring that each division is going to need a set proportion of the Corps, Army, and Communication Zone troops. For units smaller than a division, the ratio goes up due to their limited ability to operate independently, unless designed that way. If designed that way, the ratio of teeth to tail in the unit drops.

I used to cite a US based 1:500, but Hans pointed me at Europe, and the are enough well below 1:1000 to pull the average. Then again, US is actually about 1:2000 in the sticks, and about 1:400 in the major urbanizations, counting local, city, state, federal, and auxiliary and anciliary enforcement agencies... but we have rather high rates