Independence of low-TL worlds

[Dulinor]

What guarantees the independence of low-tech worlds? How do they enforce their own laws against high-TL travellers?

Take the case of Roakhoi (Reavers' Deep 1224) for instance, as described in Far Traveller #1. It's an independent TL 4 world, with a valuable resource (tlaospice).

1°) Off-worlders are forbidden to bring high-tech weapons out of the starport. What prevents them to do so regardless of the interdiction?
2°) What prevents a starship to land outside the starport, anywhere on the planet?
3°) What prevents a mercenary unit to carve itself a kingdom on the planet, or even to take complete control of it?

Caledon Ventures and Tlasayerlaahel are competing for the tlaospice market. Caledon Ventures could for instance enlist the Caledon Highlanders regiment (or a higher TL unit) to secure the starport and take over the world (or it could be the other way around: Tlasayerlaahel, which IIRC already holds part of the starport, could pay Teahleikhoi to conquer the planet). No SDB in the system, no naval base, no high-tech army, no aircraft, no associated worlds who would come to the rescue... I can't see a reason why they (or anyone else: the PCs, for instance) wouldn't do it. It didn't bother me back in the days, but now that I went back to reread it, it stretches my suspension of disbelief.
And Roakhoi isn't the only world in such a case in the OTU... What are your thoughts on the subject? How do you solve the problems, or justify the situation?

 

[flykiller]

No SDB in the system, no naval base, no high-tech army, no aircraft, no associated worlds who would come to the rescue...

no native forces, sure. but imtu if trade with that world is important then there will be an imperial presence dedicated to maintaining planetary law relevant to imperial trade. planetary law unrelated to imperial trade, on the other hand, may be on its own ....

 

[Supplement Four]

How does Mexico maintaint its independence from the US, or Burma from China, or Zimbabwe from South America?

There are loads of examples of poorer, lower tech governments sharing a border with higher tech, richer neighbors.

And...even if the world is low tech, sombody's got to operate the starport. And, chances are the world petitioned to have the starport and allow offworlders to operate it, in order to increase world trade with its neighbors.

 

[DaveChase]

Possibly large corps that want to be able to do business with that world.

They will work with, pay for, make available things that the world needs to protect themselves

Possibly even put in a High port if the trade is lucrative enough for a corp to make money of the trading done.

Dave Chase

 

[rancke]

What guarantees the independence of low-tech worlds? How do they enforce their own laws against high-TL travellers?

If they have a "big brother" to defend them, the big brother does. Otherwise they're more or less helpless.

Take the case of Roakhoi (Reavers' Deep 1224) for instance, as described in Far Traveller #1. It's an independent TL 4 world, with a valuable resource (tlaospice).

The locals can hide their stash of tlaospice and only bring it out when they've received the agreed-upon price.

1°) Off-worlders are forbidden to bring high-tech weapons out of the starport. What prevents them to do so regardless of the interdiction?

Nothing.

2°) What prevents a starship to land outside the starport, anywhere on the planet?

Nothing.

3°) What prevents a mercenary unit to carve itself a kingdom on the planet, or even to take complete control of it?

Nothing.

And Roakhoi isn't the only world in such a case in the OTU... What are your thoughts on the subject? How do you solve the problems, or justify the situation?

On a case by case basis. When I wrote up Danelag (E686889-5) in Reaver's Deep, I came up with this description:

"Danelag is still the occasional victim of slave raids, although seldom twice by the same slavers. All cities, villages, and individual farmsteads are connected to deep tunnels filled with various traps. Also, while no one except the police and hunters carry weapons outside their homes, every household has one or more heavy weapons hidden away – crunch guns, rocket launchers, lovingly preserved and maintained high-tech heirlooms, anything that can give a raider a hard time. Raiding Danelag is seldom cost-effective. After an attempted raid, the planet is usually left alone for a decade or two until the rumors are forgotten and the lesson has to be taught to a new generation of slavers." [Hellion's Hoard]​

Mind you, TL5 is where such things as crunch guns (capable of (as in "has some chance of") penetrating battledress) show up. At TL4 you can have sharpshooters with rifles sniping at less armored offenders. "No matter how powerful the weapons he carries, a bullet through the head will seriously cramp anybody's style", as the old adage goes.

Any world inside the Imperium has it for a "big brother". How much help that's going to be is IMO up to the local duke.


Hans

 

[rancke]

How does Mexico maintaint its independence from the US, or Burma from China, or Zimbabwe from South America?

A much lower TL imbalance for a start.


Hans

 

[rancke]

A much lower TL imbalance for a start.

Ooops. This may be stepping over the "no current politics" line. If it is, I apologize and will delete my post if so instructed.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

What guarantees the independence of low-tech worlds? How do they enforce their own laws against high-TL travellers?

Take the case of Roakhoi (Reavers' Deep 1224) for instance, as described in Far Traveller #1. It's an independent TL 4 world, with a valuable resource (tlaospice).

1°) Off-worlders are forbidden to bring high-tech weapons out of the starport. What prevents them to do so regardless of the interdiction?
2°) What prevents a starship to land outside the starport, anywhere on the planet?
3°) What prevents a mercenary unit to carve itself a kingdom on the planet, or even to take complete control of it?

In the case of this small planet with a valuable resource, if not protected by the Imperium (as it is independent), this same resource may be its security for independence if played right, as no one will allow their neighbours to monopolize it.

Caledon Ventures and Tlasayerlaahel are competing for the tlaospice market. Caledon Ventures could for instance enlist the Caledon Highlanders regiment (or a higher TL unit) to secure the starport and take over the world (or it could be the other way around: Tlasayerlaahel, which IIRC already holds part of the starport, could pay Teahleikhoi to conquer the planet). No SDB in the system, no naval base, no high-tech army, no aircraft, no associated worlds who would come to the rescue... I can't see a reason why they (or anyone else: the PCs, for instance) wouldn't do it. It didn't bother me back in the days, but now that I went back to reread it, it stretches my suspension of disbelief.
And Roakhoi isn't the only world in such a case in the OTU... What are your thoughts on the subject? How do you solve the problems, or justify the situation?

And as soon as any of the parts begins its conquest, the other one will move to neutralize it (and claim they are helping Roakhoi to maintain their independence, so having a better PR case). In the meanwhile, both parts are left without their tlaospice (with the economic losses that mean) and risk others to profit from the chaos...

And other corporations don't want any of those two to hold the monopoly, so they will not stand just watching...

 

[aramis]

Ooops. This may be stepping over the "no current politics" line. If it is, I apologize and will delete my post if so instructed.


Hans

[m;]You went right to the line.[/m;]
Not on it, not over it.

Flykiller's post was deleted for going a bit too far.

As rhetoricals, the modern examples are fine, but once people start down that path, it tends to get really political.

[m;]Let's let the modern political examples stop. WW II era and prior only, please.[/m;]

On to the topic and off the administrativa
I do agree that the TL difference is minor on Earth.

I'll note, tho', that a lot of real world examples from the early 20th C involve a lack of will to take over, because that would often have created an internal obligation to "cure" the situation. EG: 1920 Cuba - fully 50 years behind the US tech wise, and the US happy with that, because annexing Cuba would have both eliminated the tax shelters of the wealth US industrialists propping up the country, and would have created an obligation to actually enforce US internal extradition warrants and anti-slavery laws. (Cubanos were often in work contracts that were essentially indentured servitude, which, by the 1920's, was deemed to be slavery, unlike the 1880's.)

Plus, at the time, it would have meant creating, at federal expense, an education system for the "territory" that it would have become.

So, it instead remained separate, and exploited.

Similar for non-canal-zone Panama.

Similar also for a number of other small nations.

 

[Vladika]

What guarantees the independence of low-tech worlds? How do they enforce their own laws against high-TL travellers?

Take the case of Roakhoi (Reavers' Deep 1224) for instance, as described in Far Traveller #1. It's an independent TL 4 world, with a valuable resource (tlaospice).

1°) Off-worlders are forbidden to bring high-tech weapons out of the starport. What prevents them to do so regardless of the interdiction?

Even a couple of pistol armed policemen can pretty much shoot the highest TL criminal in the head. For a small group bullying, or shooting, their way out of the Starport? Say they succeed; how are they coming back for their now totally surrounded and impounded ship? A company of the local military would handle that situation just fine.

 

[Drakon]

If there is a starport on the TL level 4 world, then that station will be run by the Imperium. The Imperium controls the borders of the exclusion zone. Ultimately that comes down to the manager of the starport or local knight.

Which means the Imperium controls what comes into and goes out of that station. Possibly with some very nifty TL 12 weapon's scanners. Looking at technology available today, by the time TL 12 hits, there should be some pretty nifty gadgets available.

As to landing off port, or carving out a kingdom out in the boondocks, that would be Starport Traffic Control, and whatever security forces the starport has. As other have suggested, both competing megacorps, Imperial military forces stationed at the starport, and/or private security, would probably put a stop to any off port landing, or kingdom carving.

 

[GrayPennell]

I think there is also the possibility of hiring mercenaries or importing advance weapons. This is often a way around the technology issue. A company afraid of losing profits and aware of the Imperium will do what it takes to hold that company. There might be some interesting spy vs spy going on behind the scenes too.

 

[atpollard]

A relatively high TL VLAW imported by the TL 4 LEO might come as a nasty surprise to the armored thug rampaging the streets with impunity.

Many things illegal for common citizens are allowed for either the military or law enforcement.

I bet a TL 4 40mm cannon will spoil your whole TL 14 day. (individual not starship)

 

[Timerover51]

Finally found the UWP and some history on the Traveller Wiki. UWP is C969543-4, and population is a mix of humans and Aslan, with 88% water. That would give a population in the hundreds of thousands, and more than enough to support the full spectrum of Tech Level 4 technology. That would include things like high explosives and shaped charges (the Munroe Effect was discovered in 1888). A couple of books on weapons development would give the population all they would need to know about producing advanced Tech Level 4 Weaponry.

Now for how hard it would be for an outside mercenary force to subdue a planet like that, I would suggest reading the British efforts to subdue Afghanistan and the Northwest Frontier Agency in what is now Pakistan in the late 1800s, along with colonial small wars in general. Perusal of the German and Italian efforts in what was then Yugoslavia during the World War 2 period would also prove pertinent.

An extended military campaign among a hostile populace is not what a mercenary company would find attractive, as they would be faced with continual attrition and the problems of making up that attrition with new recruits. That does not even cover things like logistic support, which a mercenary force would normally leave to the employer to deal with. Then you can only wear Battle Armor, if you have it for so long. Eventually you need to take it off, and your troops are going to want some free time.

Also, as previously mentioned, if there is a valuable resource on the planet, there will be competitors for it.

As for a ship landing, a ship, when landed, is a point source of military control. The valuable material is likely going to be where the colonists are. After a couple of raids, the colonists are going to have anti-raider policies in place, and raiding is going to be much less attractive.

Lastly, given that size of populace, and the presence of a valuable resource, while Tech Level 4 might be the local production level, a small amount of more advanced weaponry could be considered as present as well.

The following quote is taken from Mongoose Traveller, but I believe that it would apply to all versions of the game.

A planet’s technology may be one or more levels higher or lower in a particular field, such as Medicine, Communications, Weaponry, Ship Construction, Power Generation, Computers and so forth.

I submit that the stated planet should have no trouble maintaining its independence.

 

[DaveChase]

I wonder about all this TL talk but not about the world's culture.

Short to the point, does the world want to keep to their TL level or are they wanting to jump up a couple of levels as soon as possible.

Without getting political, I think the government level would help determine this, as an open society/culture would most likely welcome over all improvement growth, where a monarchy/dictator would want the TL for themselves and not the people (except to keep them in line).

Another thought is maybe the ruling class (if no one single world ruler) would want everything to be completely hush hush. Ie, the general population wouldn't (shouldn't) have a clue. Any mining would have to be in complete secret from the people of the world or at the minimum from the outside to appear to be complete typical of the local TL.

Just some more thoughts that I have had on this thread.

Dave Chase

 

[aramis]

The Monroe Effect (Shaped Charge) can be applied with almost any explosive that can be either granulated, stablisized as a liquid in a fibrous medium, gelled, or pasted. It's predicate technology is, essentially, explosives, the first of which are late TL1 or early TL2†. A brass frame could easily be built to apply a shaped charge effect to blow open an airlock by use of the Monroe Effect. It may not be readily man portable, but it will be readily portable enough.

Likewise, discarding sabot was developed historically in 1940 - but the basic principle could have been applied much earlier - TL 2 has case shot, so it could also have DS; it is materially similar.

A 300mm canon at point blank (say, 30m) with a steel 15x200mm penetrator and wood and leather sabot, and you have a TL2 weapon that can shatter a fuel tank or bridge window or otherwise harm almost any "adventure class" ship, or pretty easily open an airlock, permanently.


† Cannon are TL2 per TTB p 87. That requires gunpowder or other low explosive as a predicate technology.

 

[BlackBat242]

no native forces, sure. but imtu if trade with that world is important then there will be an imperial presence dedicated to maintaining planetary law relevant to imperial trade. planetary law unrelated to imperial trade, on the other hand, may be on its own ....

If there is a starport on the TL level 4 world, then that station will be run by the Imperium. The Imperium controls the borders of the exclusion zone. Ultimately that comes down to the manager of the starport or local knight.

Which means the Imperium controls what comes into and goes out of that station. Possibly with some very nifty TL 12 weapon's scanners. Looking at technology available today, by the time TL 12 hits, there should be some pretty nifty gadgets available.

Roakhoi is well over one subsector outside Imperium borders.

In fact, there is an entire "pocket empire" (the Confederation of Duncinae) between the Imperium and Roakhoi!

The closest multi-system polities are CoD and the Grand Duchy of Marlheim (both 1-J3 distant).

 

[Vladika]

The Monroe Effect (Shaped Charge) can be applied with almost any explosive that can be either granulated, stablisized as a liquid in a fibrous medium, gelled, or pasted. It's predicate technology is, essentially, explosives, the first of which are late TL1 or early TL2†. A brass frame could easily be built to apply a shaped charge effect to blow open an airlock by use of the Monroe Effect. It may not be readily man portable, but it will be readily portable enough.

Aramis is entirely correct.

See the German glider forces taking of Fort Eben-Emael. German Engineer troops used two part shaped charges weighing, iirc, up to 110 pounds. This mission was a spectacular success.

 

[shield]

I would have though for most low TL worlds, it just isn't cost effective to invade them - they have little to offer.

As for the example given, there is little the world could do to prevent any of the actions proposed by direct military force, except scream for help from other customers of their resource. But they can do several non-violent things. They simply refuse to deal with the adventurer or ship that breaks their rules. Okay you can shoot the non-copoerative local but how many do you shoot. They simply refuse to trade with you. You could carve out a petty kingdom with some mercs but you still need the locals to house and feed your troops and to extract whatever resource the planet has. This takes an expensive military occupation force and it is probably easier and cheaper just to buy the stuff from the locals.

It is more likely that the off-worlders will try and con the locals as the value of their goods and not pay them the going rate or over-charge them when they use their new found credits to buy something from offworld

 

[rancke]

I agree that even at TL 2, the locals would have a chance to do onto overconfident invaders. But a half score of tech levels is quite a force multiplier. A TL 12 starship with laser cannons can play havoc with any number of TL2 troops. And while a single shipful of slavers with ultra-tech weapons can be overwhelmed by sheer numbers, a well-organized decent-sized force of well-equipped mercenaries should be able to take on quite a number of TL2 troops. Then you have the possibility of doing a Pizzaro and ally with a pert of the locals against the rest.

For more ideas, have a group of players run the mercenaries and see what they come up with.


Hans