In the Black

[Smiling DM]

I remember seeing some references a long time ago (6-9 months) about some revised trade rules for T20. I beleiev the name that was floated around for that book was "In the Black".

What's the status of this, if any?

I ask because my current group is making money hand-over-fist per the current rules. I have seen others say that the rules are broken and that no one could ever run a business under the spec trade rules.

My experience is quite the opposite. My boys have generated aroun 170-200 MCr in revenue in just under a year of game time, netting about half of that as profit (after expenses). They upgraded the first ship (an 200-ton Far Trader), and have recently traded it in for something bigger (a home design 600-ton vessel, nominally an exploration vessel, but with 110 dtons of cargo that they are putting to good use).

Has anyone else had this same kind of rseult?

I have them operating in the Ile/Old Expanses region, a nice little cluster with a lot of J-2 gaps in it, very much back water (its not the a$$ end of space, just the Testes - note the shape of the cluster and the location of the two Hi Pop worlds, and it makes sense). I chose it for its remoteness and isolation - apparently it is also a great triangle trade region.

I'd really like to hear about other folks' experience with the Trade rules.

 

[Anton]

Somewhat similar.

I'm running the Linkworlds adventure from this website, set in the Shanape Cluster, Ley Sector, Gateway Domain.

The premise of the campaign is that the characters' party needs to make money, which shouldn't be easy in their A2 Far Trader. They get a 'milk run' job of collecting starport records, which will earn them a refit, but even so, the impression is that every cred should be a struggle - certainly for the ship owner (who, IMTU, has just over a year of mortgage payments left).

Instead, it's a struggle for me to keep them broke One of the characters rolled up a Merchant/Traveller and took appropriate merchy skills and feats. The <i>Grendelsbane's</i> first couple of Jumps earned them profits of well over Cr500,000, using the T20 commerce rules and that character's feats.

The only saving grace is that it took so long for us to get to know the tables/rules that it was agreed that I'd do all the rolling before game night - and I've been blatantly ignoring some results I've rolled This has managed to keep profits down on the last two jumps.

As a result, I've ignored parts of the adventure citing monetary reward or opportunities for credit. And throwing in things to strip the party of cash Heh - at one stage, one of the characters picked up a mission (he had the motivation of making a very useful contact), decided the rest of the party would never go for it for the reward offered, and when he spoke to them, doubled what had been offered...

From my (admittedly limited) experience of CT's trade rules and the T20 rules, I think the T20 rules are possibly a teeny bit generous as they stand, but do get broken very easily if a player creates a Merchant character and specialises in the trade skills and feats.

Regards,

Anton

 

[Mythmere]

I haven't tried out the spec rules yet, but as far as I'm concerned, it's better to have rules that are generous with profits for the players. It's easy to trim back their cash with unexpected taxes, thefts, repair needs, and other opportunities for role-playing when the gross cash stream is plentiful. Players don't mind being kept poor by role-playing, but if they are having to scrounge for survival they will deeply resent any roleplaying twists that cost them money.

 

[lightsenshi]

I would add that if you think the players are making too much money there's always:
1) Unexpected (and usually expensive) repairs. Things break. Sometimes with a little monster help.
2) Taxes, taxes, taxes.

3) Pirates. (so what if you didn't roll that encounter, it's called GM fudging)
4) If the ship isn't new (and even if it is) the players should expect to pay a penalty for paying off the loan early.
5) Did I mention pirates yet?

6) Military diversion. (yes citizen, we know but we're diverting you anyways, national security you understand)

And there's more, of course.

 

[tjoneslo]

It is a well known experience with the CT trade system (which T20 uses), that the standard trade rules are impossible to make money at and the speculative trade rules it is virtually impossible not to make huge amounts of money.

My suggestion: If the players are making as much money as you say they are, someone else will also want to make they much money. And be more willing to shoot first, ask questions later to get it.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
Yes my group have that much money there looking for a warship for escort, yes the pirates raided them and now they want a 1500ton escort, yes they have the money to bye one outright but the Imperium dosn't sell warships to merchants?????.
So now they are busy designing a 1500 ton Freighter with 30 tons of cargo and a lot of guns.
I found that the Spec trade rules are a wast of time if one player has 5 or 6 terms of Merchant it's impossible not to make millions out of each trade roll, and if you pudge the figures why have them in the first place (some fudge all right thou fattening)HEHEHE.
BYE.

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by lightsenshi:
I would add that if you think the players are making too much money there's always:
1) Unexpected (and usually expensive) repairs. Things break. Sometimes with a little monster help.
2) Taxes, taxes, taxes.

3) Pirates. (so what if you didn't roll that encounter, it's called GM fudging)
4) If the ship isn't new (and even if it is) the players should expect to pay a penalty for paying off the loan early.
5) Did I mention pirates yet?

6) Military diversion. (yes citizen, we know but we're diverting you anyways, national security you understand)

And there's more, of course.

Thanx for the suggestions, but in trying to run a consistent setting, here are the obstacles that I find (probably put there by myself) in some of the options you listed.

2) Taxes, taxes, taxes.

Actually, the Imperium is very light on taxation. Remember, free trade rules all. Only references I can find on taxation say that the local starport authority typically taxes transactions by 5% (basically to cover operating costs), and that planetary governments can tax no more than 5% and still be within the Imperium (I believe the reference is in GT:Far Trader). ANy type of tax beyond that is considered a tariff or barrier to trade.

3) Pirates. Good option, also invokes the broken things option. But if you have too much piratic activity, then someone should be taking notice (ie. the Navy).

4) If the ship isn't new (and even if it is) the players should expect to pay a penalty for paying off the loan early.

I have never encountered such a financial rule in my experience, and I'm sure my players would find it disagreeable. Most finacial firms are thrilled about early payment - it costs them nothing, and gives them additional opportunities to generate revenue. Certainly much preferable to late payments.

5) Did I mention pirates yet?

6) Military diversion. (yes citizen, we know but we're diverting you anyways, national security you understand)

Actually have been using this one. Setting is TU 3I in the year 1117. Yes, Dulinor shot Strephon, and it is all starting to go to pieces. The fun is about to begin in the Player's stomping grounds in about 6-9 months. The Old Expanses Fleet is being yanked out by Lucan to chase Dulinor, and those pesky Solomani aren't just gonna sit around . . .

So in all truth, the borken trade rules are going to become a very small part of the game, very soon.

 

[Mythmere]

4) If the ship isn't new (and even if it is) the players should expect to pay a penalty for paying off the loan early.

I have never encountered such a financial rule in my experience, and I'm sure my players would find it disagreeable. Most finacial firms are thrilled about early payment - it costs them nothing, and gives them additional opportunities to generate revenue. Certainly much preferable to late payments.

It's far from a "rule," but a prepayment penalty is fairly common in mortgages. It's usually there when the rights to the cash flow stream are being sold immediately after the closing of the loan. But since it's part of the contract, you can hardly invoke it retroactively.

As far as taxes, though, you could have special handling "fees," a required communications hookup that rents for a bunch of money, a required translator (even if the planet speaks Galanglic), etc., etc.. Don't use more than one per port, though, or the players will justifiably get annoyed.

 

[vutpakdi]

Outside of the suggestions already mentioned, I would suggest adjusting the prices and availability of cargos as needed, particularly if the characters are making repeated profitable runs (which should drive up/down the price of the goods purchased/sold). Prices and availability do change based on numerous factors.

Another option is to change the type of campaign slightly so that the characters are less focussed on making money by trading and having a huge starship doesn't help them much.

Ron

 

[Richard Saunders]

Originally posted by Ron Vutpakdi:
Outside of the suggestions already mentioned, I would suggest adjusting the prices and availability of cargos as needed, particularly if the characters are making repeated profitable runs (which should drive up/down the price of the goods purchased/sold). Prices and availability do change based on numerous factors.

Another option is to change the type of campaign slightly so that the characters are less focussed on making money by trading and having a huge starship doesn't help them much.

Ron

Hello.
Yes tried all of the above but the players looked strangly at me when they turned up at an Industrial world and the only goods for sale where food products (low profit) and what do you do when they dont trade between two or three or even four planets but trade throughout the sector picking goods that match the trade type for the next planet they are going to (Even the dimmest player is going to spot the fudge after several trips doing this) and if you change the type of campagne it kinda erks the players. Yes they may be very good at being Merchants but that dosnt mean that they would be any good at Explorers your average Merchant isnt equiped for combat, if you send them of into the wilds of unexplored space (which would be where in explored space),they are just as likly to turn up dead (Exploration is fun because of the danger of being dead, Trade is fun because of the danger of loosing all your money, One means get a job the other get new character, most merchant characters will live with being broke but get irate with GM for killing them in an adventure they didnt want (yes one missjump they will live with but if the game turns into one long missjump they will assume your cheating and start doing it to out of selfpreservation).
AS an aside yes most Home loans have a penalty for paying the loan out early most are last two payments extra (fees, bank duties but mainly because the bank likes to have more of your money).
Thank you and Good night.
BYE.

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by Mythmere:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 4) If the ship isn't new (and even if it is) the players should expect to pay a penalty for paying off the loan early.

I have never encountered such a financial rule in my experience, and I'm sure my players would find it disagreeable. Most finacial firms are thrilled about early payment - it costs them nothing, and gives them additional opportunities to generate revenue. Certainly much preferable to late payments.

It's far from a "rule," but a prepayment penalty is fairly common in mortgages. It's usually there when the rights to the cash flow stream are being sold immediately after the closing of the loan. But since it's part of the contract, you can hardly invoke it retroactively.

As far as taxes, though, you could have special handling "fees," a required communications hookup that rents for a bunch of money, a required translator (even if the planet speaks Galanglic), etc., etc.. Don't use more than one per port, though, or the players will justifiably get annoyed. </font>[/QUOTE]True - I have heard of such things, but never actually seen it. In all the business and home financing I have done over the past 15 years, the financing agent has aloways pointed out that there is no pre-payment penalty. I suppose I could 'trick the charcters by just not mentioning a pre-pay penalty, but then they would really resent that.

In fact, my players have actually deposited a full years worth of Mortgage in the local bank where their Mortgage exists. This way the bank can draw down on the account when needed, and the group doesn't have to worry about leaving Imperial space and still making payments - at least for a year.

Part of my problem is that one of the players is a Chief Financial Officer in Real Life, so I can't do a whole lot of fudging without him pulling out the textbook on GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles). I know, I know, its my setting, but again, I shoot for consistent realism (I like HARD sci-fi for a reason).

Thanks for all the comments. I was hoping to hear something from the Ancients re: new trade rules, but so far they have been silent . . .

 

[Mythmere]

Smiling DM, this might be your lucky day. You see, the only thing that can trump a CFO is a corporate lawyer.

Ominous Music.

Number one. Banking laws are local in the Imperium. Most laws contain "defaults," ie, if a contract doesn't say anything about something, the law tells you what happens. Examples: ALL contracts on Zanziboot of COURSE require you to pay a prepayment penalty on starship loans from Zanziboot banks. 34 Banking Regulations 93. Look it up. Didn't you do a gather information check or an interstellar law check? Tsk. Tsk. If your contract doesn't say there's NO prepayment penalty, there IS one. And about that escrow deposit. You DID know that the bank has the authority to lend it out at your risk provided their decision is reasonable and not less than half the interest paid is credited to your account. You knew that, right? Didn't your Zanziboot lawyer tell you? You signed a contract without a Zanziboot lawyer? Better not let the police hear about that one - there are regulations to protect suckers here - its a hefty fine for signing a contract without a lawyer's counsel. It's for your own protection. In fact, the counterparty to the contract can segregate some of your funds if you didn't hire an attorney. Oops - wait, you said you had deposited mortgage payments for a year?

Legal systems are incredibly diverse - the most realistic way to portray 11,000 worlds with self-governance, aliens, different species of humanity, a dark age, etc., is to have a wild variety of legal systems crafted to fit each and every one of those 11,000 cultures.

Happy GAAPing!

 

[Anthony]

Well, if you're willing to look outside of T20, you could always look at GURPS Traveller: Far Trader (if you can find it). While the specific numbers are jiggered for GURPS Traveller, the overall principles are generic enough to be used, not only with other versions of Traveller, but with completely unrelated settings.

That's a fairly complex system, of course. The simple option is: 'as long as you act like a normal, boring merchant, you slowly make money, probably averaging around 2%*merchant check bonus above your yearly operating costs. If you want to make a lot of money, go off adventuring'.

 

[aravain]

Another possible choice is to offer the players products or sales goods that are faulty,impure, or illegal on their next planetfall. This would help explain the huge profits that are possible in the handbook; the seller is anxious to dump some faulty or illegal goods unknowingly to some rube traders who fail to check either the goods or the trading laws at their next stop. The original seller "disappears", leaving the PCs holding the bag. Used sparingly, this ploy offers a great chance for role-playing, makes the characters much more careful on what they will or will not accept, and helps siphon money and resources away from the players.

One must always remember: if it seems too good to be true, then it probably is!

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Well, if you're willing to look outside of T20, you could always look at GURPS Traveller: Far Trader (if you can find it). While the specific numbers are jiggered for GURPS Traveller, the overall principles are generic enough to be used, not only with other versions of Traveller, but with completely unrelated settings.

That's a fairly complex system, of course. The simple option is: 'as long as you act like a normal, boring merchant, you slowly make money, probably averaging around 2%*merchant check bonus above your yearly operating costs. If you want to make a lot of money, go off adventuring'.

I have a copy, and have been using it piecemeal to help structure the general economics of the area (which I think it does rather well). I also like the revised costs/values of bulk cargo (IMHO cargo should be priced per unit of distance travelled, per GURPS:FT)

But this doesn't help balance things at the PC level for speculative trade. Part of the problem is the lack of definition of when you use Trader, Broker, and the Appraise skills as part of the overall Mercantile system. And then, massaging the results of those tests to fit the old CT Value table (which was designed for a system where player skill bonuses were +1 to +3 (at best) before putting in Trade modifiers).

Anyone tackle this on their own yet?

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by Mythmere:
Smiling DM, this might be your lucky day. You see, the only thing that can trump a CFO is a corporate lawyer.

Ominous Music.

Truly devious. I LIKE IT!!!! Players beware.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Smiling DM:

But this doesn't help balance things at the PC level for speculative trade.

Actually, Far Trader does cover that too. The basic answer is 'the speculative trade tables are garbage; for PCs, with the level of information about market affairs that PCs are likely to maintain, speculative trade should mostly be a way to lose a lot of money really fast'.

For gaming purposes, it's basically undesireable for it to be practical to make good money being a regular merchant. This is an adventure game, not 'beancounters in space'.

 

[Smiling DM]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Smiling DM:

But this doesn't help balance things at the PC level for speculative trade.

Actually, Far Trader does cover that too. The basic answer is 'the speculative trade tables are garbage; for PCs, with the level of information about market affairs that PCs are likely to maintain, speculative trade should mostly be a way to lose a lot of money really fast'.

For gaming purposes, it's basically undesireable for it to be practical to make good money being a regular merchant. This is an adventure game, not 'beancounters in space'. </font>[/QUOTE]Understood - and I agree. However, the combat system is so lethal in T20 (and I like it that way), that my group would rather do beancounting than adventure. Of course, I have made the past few 'speculative trades' a bit more adventuresome.

GM to PC's: Sure, here's some TL14 Pharmceuticals for a song. You need to stop by the warehouse at 3AM, and come to the rear entrance . . .

 

[Anthony]

Basically, all options for making money fast are going to be dangerous, illegal, or have a substantial chance of losing you money instead. Still, if you want some interesting speculative trade adventures, you can do things like sending them off to the back ends of nowhere on a low-tech world to find 'native art'. Remember, not all hazards have to consist of people shooting fusion guns at the PCs.

 

[Linwood]

Keep in mind too that laws tend to change. A swing in the local planet's government from liberal to conservative, and maybe that 40-ton cargo of recreational pharmaceuticals is banned and the group looks like smugglers....

Another possibility is competition -- say, another speculative trade crew (or a local shipping line) that shows up now and then to compete for a particularly desirable cargo. Bidding wars, dueling rumors, and all sorts of dirty tricks short of actual violence could well ensue....