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Imperial Salvage Law

(not sure if this is the right forum for this)

My PCs have just stumbled onto an abandoned Fat Trader with a halfway full cargo hold in the trojan point of a large moon.

How do Imperial salvage laws apply (we're playing Classic Traveller)?

Imperial law would apply to the system, not planetary law, right?

So, what can the PCs keep and what do they have to give back, and what just requires a good faith effort to return?

The ship itself
Parts of the ship (drives, computer, etc.)
Cargo (shipped as bulk cargo)
Cargo (bought for speculative trade)
Personal items left behind
Ship's equipment
 
I think you have to file some kind of legal claim and get a court decision in your favor...as to where to file I haven't got a clue. Here's a question, what if the players defend themselves from a corsair and capture it? If there's a scout inside that huge 180 ton hold do they get to keep it with any stolen cargo as battle salvage or just get some kind of finders fee from the banks/owners/insurance companies?
 
CT didn't really have laws for salvage. At least not in the confines of the rulebooks. So back when we played Adventure 1, The Kinunir, the ship was open salvage and we fixed the computer. (With a fusion gun, thank you very much.) Temporarily installed a Mod 1bis, from our Scout ship so we could jump the thing to a starport to install a new computer. And off we went chasing pirates and running Mercenary tickets from the deck of the Kinunir.

The rules in T20 cover it nicely and a bit more sanely, and those rules work well in CT. It is on page 344 of the THB and would require lots of typing to get it here.
Basically it boils down to this. You have to take the ship to a Class C or better port. THe original owners have 10 years to file a claim of ownership. If the owner of the items don't show up in the first year then the salvage claimant gets custodial care of the objects. After 5 years it can be sold with the government getting 50% in taxes and fees, 1/4 going to the salvage claim holder and one quarter being held in trust for the owner. Now if the owner is found then they are required to pay 25% of the value to the salvage claim holder.

Items owned by the government are always owned by the government and the government may pay a finders fee of 1-6% of the value.
 
Originally posted by selunatic2397:
I think you have to file some kind of legal claim and get a court decision in your favor...as to where to file I haven't got a clue. Here's a question, what if the players defend themselves from a corsair and capture it? If there's a scout inside that huge 180 ton hold do they get to keep it with any stolen cargo as battle salvage or just get some kind of finders fee from the banks/owners/insurance companies?
I'd bet they couldn't keep the Corsair and probably wouldn't want to.

Probably, the ship is registered on various interstellar warning and wanted lists. So, if you show up at Regina Up and say "Oh, this? We just found it." They'll say, "Yeah. Um, you're under arrest for piracy."

If you tow it in or just report it, it will probably be impounded by the Navy. I'm sure there would be a reward, but I doubt you'd get to keep the ship. Ditto for a scout ship that probably still technically belongs to the Scout Service, even if it was on detached duty. They're going to want it back.

As far as other pirate cargo goes, I'm sure you could get away with pocketing it or at least some of it. I mean, it was pirate cargo. The corsair probably wasn't carrying a manifest detailing exactly whom they stole it from, when it was stolen, and the circumstances.

The only probalem woud be that the cargo is stolen. If it was some raw material like wood or iron, it probably won't be a problem. Nobody is going to know whose wood it was when you land at Glisten and try to sell it through a broker.

Things with serial numbers and descriptions, though... could maybe bring trouble if it's been reported stolen, becaue somebody somewhere has records that they own the specific piece of cargo you've taken as a prize.
 
This is pretty much one of those "How do you want things to work in your version of the Third Imperium?" questions. There's no hard-and-fast answer that I have seen (until the aforementioned T20 rules, that is).

My campaign milieu is totally homebrew, and the answers there vary from "Thank you for recovering this vessel, it's Navy property now" in the Star Republic of Virgil through "It's yours once we process the paperwork - shouldn't take more than a few years - you do have your forms in triplicate, don't you?" in the Decatur Unity to "You can keep it as long as you can defend it" in the independent worlds.

Use what works for you & your players is my suggestion.

John
 
Originally posted by selunatic2397:
I think you have to file some kind of legal claim and get a court decision in your favor...as to where to file I haven't got a clue. Here's a question, what if the players defend themselves from a corsair and capture it? If there's a scout inside that huge 180 ton hold do they get to keep it with any stolen cargo as battle salvage or just get some kind of finders fee from the banks/owners/insurance companies?
The problem you run into with the Corsair aspect of it. The concept of a dedicated "Corsair Class" of ship, unless you are in the Vargr Extents or some other lawless sector of space is insane. Naval vessels that have been turned into Corsairs, Merchants that are being used as corsairs, sure. But anything that outwardly doesn't appear to belong or appears outwardly to be a corsair, will be little more than gunnery drills for the Navy.
 
WITH TNE TERE IS NOW GOVERNMENT OR NAVY TO INTERFER WITH YOUR SALVAGE OPERATION. IN CT ALL NAVY SHIPS (AND THEIR CARGO) BELONG TO THE NAVY. FRIEGHTERS USUALLY BELONG TO THE BANK THEY ARE BEING PURCHASED THROUGH UNLESS THEY ARE OWNED OUTRIGHT BY SOMEONE. THE CARGO OWNERSHIP USUALLY IS OPEN FOR DEBATE WITH THE INSURANCE COMPANY WHO WILL TRY TO PAY OFF A CREW WITH A (SMALL) FINDERS FEE.
 
Originally posted by cweiskircher:
WITH TNE TERE IS NOW GOVERNMENT OR NAVY TO INTERFER WITH YOUR SALVAGE OPERATION. IN CT ALL NAVY SHIPS (AND THEIR CARGO) BELONG TO THE NAVY. FRIEGHTERS USUALLY BELONG TO THE BANK THEY ARE BEING PURCHASED THROUGH UNLESS THEY ARE OWNED OUTRIGHT BY SOMEONE. THE CARGO OWNERSHIP USUALLY IS OPEN FOR DEBATE WITH THE INSURANCE COMPANY WHO WILL TRY TO PAY OFF A CREW WITH A (SMALL) FINDERS FEE.
Ow! My ears! :(

Please, don't shout.
 
Chuck
"...TNE TERE IS [no] GOVERNMENT..."
Salvage Law requires that there be a rule of law to make it relevant.

"...NAVY SHIPS (AND THEIR CARGO) BELONG TO THE NAVY. FRIEGHTERS USUALLY BELONG TO THE BANK..."
With respect to salvage, the 'legal' owner may well not be relevant. A legal entity which brings in 'lost' property needs to be compensated for doing so, or they will not do so in future and the owner will not recover their property. Salvage law exists to provide a framework within which there is an incentive for the salvager to continue their operation and yet the party whose property is recovered does not lose the entire value of that property. If the Navy paid a lesser percentage of the salvage's value than a private concern, then Navy salvage would take second place to civilian. This would not be considered a Good Thing by the Navy. The big difference between Navy salvage and private work is that the Navy will always reclaim their property if it is posted, but, if you are lucky, a private salvage might remain unclaimed and therefore revert to its recoverer. Another factor might be technology: Navy ships are probably higher tech, on average, than civilian ones, and the Imperium would rather such material didn't get scavenged. These factors probably combine to make the Navy pay a higher finder's fee than civilian owners, whether they be banks, insurance companies or private citizens.
 
You missed a factor, Womble, in Admiralty law being effective:

Not just rule of law, but effective recourse of law.

As in, "Hey, that's my ship! Stop it!" actually causing the ship to be reclaimed by the listed owner.

In Traveller, there are clearly places with rule of law, but ship owners potentially having no recourse of law in regard to ships... like during a war, or worse, near the borders of a hostile power.

Example of Rule of Law but not Recourse of Law:
Admiralty Clerk: "Yeah, they took your ship. Yeah, you can prove it. No, the local polity will NOT return it to you, but if you can take it back, fine. Here's a limited scope letter of Marque, Reprisal and repossession. Come back in with this and the ship, and we'll reregister it to you."

Salvage is a case where recourse of law may or may not be relevant... except to the ship-owner. The T20 TU has clear recourse of law for the ship-owner, as well as ship-salvager.
 
Another factor to consider in "salvage" is whether you are running afoul of other laws, and how they interact. These interactions makes for some good salvage scenarios.

If I recall correctly, in one or more of David Webber's novels, the governments treat old space battle sites essentially as cemetaries for honored war dead, so anyone scavenging in them is essentially considered a desecrator and grave-robber, and is of course subject to law enforcement action. Heck, a touchy Navy Captain might simply put a nuclear tipped missile into the offender if they don't surrender very quick-like.

Also, what if you salvage one of those ships that was quarantined for some reason and set adrift? Leaving aside the possible consequences of opening up and boarding one of those, and assuming you don't really know the ship's history when you recover it, imagine the uproar when you bring the salvage into the spaceport, then find out while they're processing the paperwork that the ship was sealed and set adrift 60 years ago because of a suspected virulent plague on board. The local port administrator is not going to be happy with you.

Then there's the question of piracy vs salvage vs assistance. If you find a crewmember alive in the emergency low berth, is it salvage, or do you commit the act of piracy by claiming the ship, or are you simply rendering compensable assistance to a ship in distress? (This is an example question ... I don't mean to start a debate about this.
)
 
Also, what if you salvage one of those ships that was quarantined for some reason and set adrift? Leaving aside the possible consequences of opening up and boarding one of those, and assuming you don't really know the ship's history when you recover it, imagine the uproar when you bring the salvage into the spaceport, then find out while they're processing the paperwork that the ship was sealed and set adrift 60 years ago because of a suspected virulent plague on board. The local port administrator is not going to be happy with you.[/QB]
Hey, and that's exactly what might be going to happen. :D
 
Hmmm, wondering what happens when the players try to salvage the Annic Nova...

I had to choose between placing it (the AN) in the Ruie or Forboldn systems (for reasons that don't matter here).

I reckoned that, if in the Ruie system, one or more of those planetary governments would try to claim it; in the Forboldn system, there are Imperial authorities (the Ministry of Colonisation) who I'm guessing could process the paperwork for the travellers... And as would have happened with the Keng system, the players would be able to establish a salvage claim to the ship under Imperial law.

But I reckon that the IISS, the Navy and the Regina subsector academic community would definitely want to get their hands on that ship, for research, to study its solar collectors, to figure out where it came from and would put up every bureaucratic obstacle they could to ensure the travellers didn't just fly off with it.

Of course, they'd have to be compensated somehow (or my players would whinge incessantly!). I was thinking salvage dues of 10% of the build cost of the AN, to spend on upgrades for their own ship...
 
(not sure if this is the right forum for this)

My PCs have just stumbled onto an abandoned Fat Trader with a halfway full cargo hold in the trojan point of a large moon.

How do Imperial salvage laws apply (we're playing Classic Traveller)?

Imperial law would apply to the system, not planetary law, right?

So, what can the PCs keep and what do they have to give back, and what just requires a good faith effort to return?

The ship itself
Parts of the ship (drives, computer, etc.)
Cargo (shipped as bulk cargo)
Cargo (bought for speculative trade)
Personal items left behind
Ship's equipment

Annic Nova: "this artifact [the ship] is allowed in Imperial commerce under the salvage laws provided the ship is registered with Imperial authorities (typical registration fee: Cr100,000)."

With respect to the Imperium: you find it, you own it. The fact that it's done without complications, waiting periods, searches, and so forth suggests it's pretty well finders keepers. The quote hints at exceptions - if you find an Imperial destroyer, they may take it and just pay you a finder's fee. I doubt the Imperium is going to let you keep a black globe off a Kinunir, and Ancient tech is an almost certain seizure - though I suspect in both cases some ample reward would be given.

With respect to others - I know of nothing specific in canon. In general, the "you find it, you own it" rule is a workable rule of thumb in modern times, but there are notable and occasionally puzzling exceptions. I think it's a case of making up whatever rules work within your own TU.
 
I used 19th century naval prize law for the players in my campaign.

The A3 trader was condemned by an Imperial Navy prize court and (depending on the roll) offered to the players who captured the ship from pirates.

The ship's loss and cargo cost had been paid out by the original owners insurance policy, which made the ISN decision easier.

As the group's financial officer rolled high (6), the ship was given to the group.
 
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