imperial military

[dm_dracos]

Ok i have a strange sounding question, as some may know, im fairly new at traveller, in any form, so far only has basic rule book (T20). and with reading the boards has had some great ideas to mix with my own, BUT!!! (LOL) I have a lot of experience with other games like twilight 2000, and merc 2000 (plus all the others out there (well most of them anyways)) with designing ships lately, i have been working on imperial military ships, and keep running into a brick wall, because with reading the specs in 101 ships for gurps traveller, i have seen some add numbers for how many marines/army/ect are in what sized units. now for my question....does anyone have and hard data on what the size/manpower is for the imperial marines/armor/fighters(ground support & combat)???????
thanks in advance for any help
Dracos

 

[far-trader]

BIG question

Missed it earlier. The simple answer is... umm, well there is no simple answer

It'll depend on how big "your" universe is. Is it a few worlds in a single system or thousands of worlds spread across light years?

Traveller, the Official Traveller Universe (OTU) that is, which is thousands of worlds spread across light years suggests huge armed forces and the ships to carry them.

Fighting ships (cruisers of 50,000tons or so) often have a Company of troops (about 200 marines) presumably for mop up action after the Naval assault.

In My Traveller Universe (MTU) there is likely to be a Brigade level force (1500 soldiers) of Imperial Army troops, sometimes several, ready for assembly in any given subsector. And that's not counting the Mercenary forces available for hire.

I don't have any GURPS stuff. In MTU I base my organization roughly on the CT model from LBB4. I organize as (for simplicity): Fire Teams of 4 soldiers; Squads of 3 Fire Teams plus a Corporal; Platoons of 4 Squads plus a Sargent; Companies of 5 Platoons plus a Lieutnant; Battalions* of 6 Companies plus a Major, and Armies of 7 Battalions plus a General.

* Really more Brigade strength at about 1600 troopers.

The Imperial Army organizes up to Army level on a planetary basis. The Imperial Marines organize up to Battalion level on a subsector level, and Mercenary Corporations organize up to Company level on a sector level. Just in MTU.

Not sure any of that is what you're after but maybe the topic bump will get some more posts.

 

[aramis]

There are 5 canonical resources on this
1) CT Spinward Marches Campaign
2) TNE Striker II
3) CT Bk 4
4) MT Rebellion Sourcebook
5) MT Referee's Companion

Bk 4 gives "Standard Organization", as do both the MT references. Ref's Comp gives the small end, Reb gives the high end.

Striker II and SMC both give exemplars.1188th LIR and 4518th LIR.

The Original Striker replicates the material in Bk4

In general, though, here's a guideline to what I USE..
4 man fire teams
8 to 12 man squads
2 squads to the section
2-3 sections to the platoon
3-6 squads to the platoon
3-5 platoons to the company
2-4 companies to the Battallion
2-3 Battallions to the Regiment.
I've had units up to regiment size in play. PC's as cadre.

Now, the standard imperial troop vehicle is the Astrin APC, which carries 8 Combat Armor or Battle Dress marines. I use 4 squad platoons, cause that makes the transport lance a full 4.

There is no "Imperial Army," at least not during peacetime. Army personnel are local planetary units pulled into imperial service (much like UN Troops are usually UN Member' units with blue berets).

 

[dm_dracos]

actually both posts helped alot, and thinks i will blend a bit of both into what i see in my own head (using alot of twilight and merc 2000 ideas) ill post and see what you think of it.

Standard Infanty:
Squad: Platoon: Company:
10-troops 3-Squads 4-Platoons
1-E2 1-E3 1-Command Squad
1-E3 1-LT 1-E4
1-Capt

Battalion:
3-Companies
1-Command Plat.
1-E4/E5
1-Force Commander

Regiment:
3-Battalions
1-Command Company
3-E4
1-E6
1-Force Commander
1-Lt. Colonel

Divisions and larger are just a pain in the rear, so i dont usually bother unless im working on a BIG ship, and then i think back to the WWII idea, of better several smaller ships and less loss if something goes wrong then one big ship that carries it all and if something happens the whole ball of wax is lost.

Now for Battle Dress units, i try setting them up similar to Reg. Infantry, 12 Man squads (figuring that gives the most flexability (ie...1-12 man team, 2-6man teams, 3-4man teams, 4-3man teams, or 6-2man teams))

usually i dont see (in MTU at least) more then 4 squads working together short of a major war, so i set them up as each "Company" of Battle Dress is almost on indipendent units.

Armor is set up with 4 tanks making a plat.
3 plats. to a company, 4 companies to a batt. and so on and so on, lol.


Well looks forward to all your views
Dracos

 

[aramis]

Just as an aside, Armor is usually
"Lances" and "Squadrons" instead of "Platoons" and "Companies", but that's just a nitpick.

 

[Badbru]

DM_Dracos, you may want to upsize your battalion levels to allow for specific support companies.

With only three if one is specialised support then you only have two maneuver companies.

I've seen, and use, orders of battle with three or four maneuver companies and a battalion support company which will have Anti Armour, Anti Air, Mortar, and Combat Engineer platoons.

 

[princelian]

IMTU, the Army is a part of the Imperial military, as is the Scout Service.

Roles:</font>

• Imperial Navy: Patrolling and anti-piracy as well as logistical and transport support for the other non-scout branches. Also serve in space control roles, from air/space superiority to orbital bombardment.
  </font>
  • </font>
  • A branch of the IN is the Imperial Merchant Marine, whose primary task is getting materiel to the Imperial armed forces whetever needed. In peacetime, the IMM moves freight for profit. The IMM is not as well trained nor as well disciplined as the IN.</font>
• Imperial Marines: Deployed as boarding/counterboarding troops aboard nearly all naval vessels (only the smallest Navy ships don't have at least a squad of jarheads). Imperial Marines are divided into two major divisions:
  </font>
  • First Assault marines are the ones dropped onto hostile worlds from orbit and who bear the brunt of the hostile defensive fire. Life expectancy is very low.</font>
  • Imperial Guard marines (the majority of marines) might deploy planetside too, and their duties cover anything_that's_not_First_Assaults. Life expectancy is higher than First Assault, but still low.</font>
  </font>
• Imperial Army: TL15 force that takes control of an area once the Imperial Marines have established the beachhead. Their role includes breaking the enemy army as well as controlling captured areas (military police and counterinsurgency roles), and also rebuilding these areas (Corps of Engineers role).</font>
• Imperial Scout Service: Technically outside of the Imperial chain of command (a separate branch that comes down off the Emperor), the ISS is often used for picket and detection roles. The Navy, however, maintains its own scoutships and flanking units, so the ISS is usually off doing what it does best - getting its scouts into trouble and mapping out new/changed areas.</font>
• Non-Imperial Space (and Wet) Navies: Some worlds and clusters maintain their own space navies, ostensibly for anti-piracy, but sometimes for lobbing hell at each other. Worlds and clusters whose navies fire on Imperial Naval forces lose the privelege (at least). NISNs sometimes have their ships commandeered by the Imperium when needed. NISNs also usually have some form of equivalent to the marines, but sometimes carry non-Imperial army troops instead. NI Wet Navies serve a number of roles planetside.</font>
• Non-Imperial Armies are maintained by the local governments. Some planets and clusters have extensive well-trained, high-TL, and well-equipped armies (think Caladan in Dune), while others are poorly trained, poorly disciplined, and/or low-TL. Like with the NISNs, if a NIA unit engages Imperial troops without a damned good justification, the right to maintain one's own army may be revoked, if control of the planet isn't taken away from the locals completely.</font>

 

[Spiderfish]

"10-troops 3-Squads 4-Platoons"

Nitpicking here but it's not really correct to use troops in that sense, if your referring to "troops" as any body of soldiers/marines then troops isn't quantified with a number, it's just "the troops".

If you say "ten troops" it sounds like you mean ten troops in the sense of a troop referring to a unit rather than individuals, who would be troopers.

Originally posted by far-trader:
BIG question

Missed it earlier. The simple answer is... umm, well there is no simple answer

It'll depend on how big "your" universe is. Is it a few worlds in a single system or thousands of worlds spread across light years?

Traveller, the Official Traveller Universe (OTU) that is, which is thousands of worlds spread across light years suggests huge armed forces and the ships to carry them.

Fighting ships (cruisers of 50,000tons or so) often have a Company of troops (about 200 marines) presumably for mop up action after the Naval assault.

In My Traveller Universe (MTU) there is likely to be a Brigade level force (1500 soldiers) of Imperial Army troops, sometimes several, ready for assembly in any given subsector. And that's not counting the Mercenary forces available for hire.

Not much of a force for a whole subsector

I don't have any GURPS stuff. In MTU I base my organization roughly on the CT model from LBB4. I organize as (for simplicity): Fire Teams of 4 soldiers; Squads of 3 Fire Teams plus a Corporal; Platoons of 4 Squads plus a Sargent; Companies of 5 Platoons plus a Lieutnant; Battalions* of 6 Companies plus a Major, and Armies of 7 Battalions plus a General.

Companies commanded by lieutenants, battalions commanded by majors and "armies" commanded by generals, your system seems a little unworkable at what level of command can lieutenant colonels-lieutenant generals get command experience? Not too mention that seven battalions is not much of an army

The Imperial Army organizes up to Army level on a planetary basis. The Imperial Marines organize up to Battalion level on a subsector level, and Mercenary Corporations organize up to Company level on a sector level. Just in MTU.

Not sure any of that is what you're after but maybe the topic bump will get some more posts.

Originally posted by DM_Dracos:
actually both posts helped alot, and thinks i will blend a bit of both into what i see in my own head (using alot of twilight and merc 2000 ideas) ill post and see what you think of it.

Standard Infanty:
Squad: Platoon: Company:
10-troops 3-Squads 4-Platoons
1-E2 1-E3 1-Command Squad
1-E3 1-LT 1-E4
1-Capt

Battalion:
3-Companies
1-Command Plat.
1-E4/E5
1-Force Commander

No 2iC at battalion level... Command platoon won't be large enough to provide the necessary ISTAR etc. Also as was said earlier you really need more than three companies, four would be better because you can have three rifle companies as manuveur and a support company to provide manuveur support.

Regiment:
3-Battalions
1-Command Company
3-E4
1-E6
1-Force Commander
1-Lt. Colonel

Divisions and larger are just a pain in the rear, so i dont usually bother unless im working on a BIG ship, and then i think back to the WWII idea, of better several smaller ships and less loss if something goes wrong then one big ship that carries it all and if something happens the whole ball of wax is lost.

Now for Battle Dress units, i try setting them up similar to Reg. Infantry, 12 Man squads (figuring that gives the most flexability (ie...1-12 man team, 2-6man teams, 3-4man teams, 4-3man teams, or 6-2man teams))

usually i dont see (in MTU at least) more then 4 squads working together short of a major war, so i set them up as each "Company" of Battle Dress is almost on indipendent units.

Armor is set up with 4 tanks making a plat.
3 plats. to a company, 4 companies to a batt. and so on and so on, lol.


Well looks forward to all your views
Dracos

IMTU

Section-Troop-Company-Battalion/Commando-Brigade

The smallest unit in the Imperial Marines of MTU is the Section. A Section is 8 Marines, the Section Commander being a corporal and his Second in Command being a lance corporal. The Section is split into two teams the first led by the corporal and the second by the lance.

A close combat troop consists of three of those sections and a manuvere support section, led by a lieutenant with a sergeant as second in command.

Three such close combat troops and a company headquarters makes up a Close Combat Company. The Officer Commanding is a force commander with a captain as second in command.

For the battalion/commando I either go with the traditional three such close combat/rifle companies and a support company plus a command company or...

A six company commando with a command company, a logistics company, two close combat companies and two standoff company companys. Very Commando 21, always use the ideas of those smarter than yourself

^ It's approved by the CGRM, so it's good enough for the likes of me.

 

[Hal]

If you're looking to see what the military structure is in a GURPS book, get your hands on a copy of GURPS TRAVELLER: GROUND FORCES. It will detail things a little more for you, assuming you want that level of detail.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by far-trader:
I don't have any GURPS stuff. In MTU I base my organization roughly on the CT model from LBB4. I organize as (for simplicity): Fire Teams of 4 soldiers; Squads of 3 Fire Teams plus a Corporal; Platoons of 4 Squads plus a Sargent; Companies of 5 Platoons plus a Lieutnant; Battalions* of 6 Companies plus a Major, and Armies of 7 Battalions plus a General.

YTU's TO jumps from battalion directly to army?

Let's see, that skips regiment/brigade, division, and corp.

That army would be pretty lightweight in comparison to most other armies.

------------------------------

Clueless Politico: Ok, send in two armies.
General: But sir!
Clueless Politico: Your own intelligence report says the enemy has two armies, right? If we send in two, then that's the appropriate measured response, right?
General: <shudders />

 

[Hemdian]

One thing I noticed looking at real world military organisations was how UNstandardised they seemed to be. So here are some ideas from MTU that you might like to try:

</font>

• Efate/Regina's Army ... check out the different divisional structures.</font>
• Yori/Regina's Army ... but I'm not happy with the special forces yet.</font>

Regards PLST

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Hemdian:
One thing I noticed looking at real world military organisations was how UNstandardised they seemed to be.

And they change periodically, too. Either to fit some new military theory or to fit advancing technology.

When the US Army adopted the Bradleys, they changed a squad to be 7 men to fit in the carrier.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
I don't have any GURPS stuff. In MTU I base my organization roughly on the CT model from LBB4. I organize as (for simplicity): Fire Teams of 4 soldiers; Squads of 3 Fire Teams plus a Corporal; Platoons of 4 Squads plus a Sargent; Companies of 5 Platoons plus a Lieutnant; Battalions* of 6 Companies plus a Major, and Armies of 7 Battalions plus a General.

YTU's TO jumps from battalion directly to army?

Let's see, that skips regiment/brigade, division, and corp.

That army would be pretty lightweight in comparison to most other armies.</font>[/QUOTE]It's not that big a jump being my Battalion is actually Brigade strength at around 1600 troopers. And my Armies are about 11,000 troopers.

Granted command efficiency starts to break down in my system at Battalion level but that's an artifact I built in for MTU reasons. Imperial Armies are rarely fielded in MTU.

------------------------------

Originally posted by RainOfSteel:
Clueless Politico: Ok, send in two armies.
General: But sir!
Clueless Politico: Your own intelligence report says the enemy has two armies, right? If we send in two, then that's the appropriate measured response, right?
General: <shudders />

And of course there's more than simple numbers to match to make it a measured response. Does a Platoon of TL15 Imperial Marines in Battle Dress armed with FGMP-15 flying in on Grav-Belts equal a Platoon of TL7 local forces? Not hardly eh?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Spiderfish:



</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
In My Traveller Universe (MTU) there is likely to be a Brigade level force (1500 soldiers) of Imperial Army troops, sometimes several, ready for assembly in any given subsector. And that's not counting the Mercenary forces available for hire.

Not much of a force for a whole subsector.

</font>[/QUOTE]And how much is enough

In MTU the Imperium really doesn't get much involved on the ground. That's usually a local issue. They maintain a token presence on most worlds and if they are needed in force the Navy will ship in the needed force collecting them from nearby worlds.

Originally posted by Spiderfish:



</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
I don't have any GURPS stuff. In MTU I base my organization roughly on the CT model from LBB4. I organize as (for simplicity): Fire Teams of 4 soldiers; Squads of 3 Fire Teams plus a Corporal; Platoons of 4 Squads plus a Sargent; Companies of 5 Platoons plus a Lieutnant; Battalions* of 6 Companies plus a Major, and Armies of 7 Battalions plus a General.

Companies commanded by lieutenants, battalions commanded by majors and "armies" commanded by generals, your system seems a little unworkable at what level of command can lieutenant colonels-lieutenant generals get command experience? Not too mention that seven battalions is not much of an army. </font>[/QUOTE]It's enough. I forgot the little * footnote when I typed up the above. It should have noted that the Battalion is some 1600 troopers strong, more a Brigade size force. Does seven Brigades sound more like an Army to you? And as noted above a large Army is not really seen as needed in MTU. This is ALL MTU as noted. And as pointed out actual sizes of "forces" is subject to change in the real world. I have no problem with an Imperial Army being a different size than some backwards balkanized planet's army

The command structure is a bit open/vague. The ranks between will command forces of the nearest size. They're somewhat transitional.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by DM_Dracos:
now for my question....does anyone have and hard data on what the size/manpower is for the imperial marines/armor/fighters(ground support & combat)?

There's an article in the JTAS reprints based on the Fifth Frontier War boardgame that allows you to calculate the strength of a planet's defense forces in numbers of battalions, including the number of lift battalions that would be considered available for deployment as part of the subsector Colonial Army.

Imperial Army and Marine strength is less than the combined Colonial troop strength in FFW, but I don't recall offhand by how much - IMTU I usually put the IA at one or two armies per subsector and the IM at one or two divisions per subsector (not including ship's troops on capital ships).

Click --> here <-- for another CotI post on the IA IMTU.


(Edited to fix a small error.)

 

[aramis]

BGG: That's also in one of the MT Rulebooks. Either RebSB or RefsComp...

 

[shadowdragon]

according to wiki:

Military units according to Wiki