Imperial Marines and "Small Wars"

[Father Fletch]

For those of you interested in what the USMC thought about the kind of involvements they would be expected to perform, look here
at this free Pdf from the 1940's
Thrash mentions this in his paper about the exit strategy for Haiti, which is also good reading.
I hope you don't mind Thrash
This all seems very appropriate for a model/inspiration of what the IN and IM would be tasked to do.

 

[clementk]

/me right clicks, save-as twice

Thanks!

For a book of tales from an earlier period of small wars I recomend Queen Victoria's Little Wars by Byron Farwell. Very good read.

His 'The Great War in Africa, 1914-1918' may also be useful (as well as being another good read). Small forces used in tandem with Zeppelins and single warships.

Casey

 

[jchurchill]

For a book of tales from an earlier period of small wars I recomend Queen Victoria's Little Wars by Byron Farwell. Very good read.
=================================================
His Mr. Kipling's Army is also an excellent source for creating a feel for the Imperial Army --esp. if you want a look and feel not rooted in the US Army.

 

[kaladorn]

For a sourcebook on some of the kinds of scenarios the Marines and Army would have to deal with, you need look no further than CNN's latest headlines.

The kinds of counter-insurgency campaigns being orchestrated in Afghanistan, Iraq, and a number of other states around the world (Malaysia and others in RimPac areas) by the U.S. alone could give one a pretty good idea of the format a lot of the missions may look like.

A study of the Balkans, Rwanda, Kosovo, the Medak Pocket, Sierra Leone, Somalia (we recall BH Down...) - all of these are samples of the kinds of nasty little situations a major power can get into trying to (depending on your outlook) inflict its way of doing things on a smaller nation/help out a chaotic and disrupted nation with oppressed people/etc.

There are lots of different views on what is being done and why, but one can easily see the types of engagements and opposition which one has to deal with.

In the Imperium, you have to figure there are thousands of Saddams and Osamas. It is a very big polity and has an even more diverse (in that in addition to religious, economic, cultural, and social diversity, we add varying species....) nature than modern Earth.

 

[Vargr Breath]

Hi
Take a look here and see if this helps

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-06/toc.htm

VB

 

[Vargr Breath]

This is the main page with some more stuff that might help
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/7-9/Ref.htm

 

[jatay3]

Just remember that the Imperial Marines are primarily "smashers and bashers". Their use in small wars is nescessarily limited. They cannot do pacification operations; the army or the Mercs are needed for that. However a lot of "small wars" are primarily "smashing and bashing"- such as persuading Vargr to stay away from Imperial citizens.

 

[Jame]

Actually, counterraiding the corsairs could be a "small war."

 

[Cheng984]

I see the role of Imperial Marines in "Small Wars" as ones of "door openers". They would do the initial assault, grabbing the major starport and select other significant economic/military/political sites in the system. For some systems this can be enough to cause total capitulation. So, small war would be over. Failing that, the Imperial Army would take over responsiblities and conduct world building operations. The only time that the Marines would be responsible for pacification is before the Army could arrive to take over the job. If the Imperial Army already has all its assets tied up in other small or large wars.

 

[aramis]

IMTU, The IMC is the FIRST LINE.

Marines Take and "Hold until relieved".

Marines are relieved by army units.

Marines never drop in less than regiment strength.

If it isn't worth sending marines, the Imperium IMTU drops nukes and mesons. In overwhelming numbers.
Then again, for purposes of expense and supply, most marines IMTU go to combat in Combat Armor, not Battle Dress. (Drop troops are usually BD, tankers are often in Tailored VacSuits with flak vests, Mech Inf in combat armor)

 

[kaladorn]

Whereas, one would not choose Marines over army if a long campaign was envisioned...

Whereas, one would not choose to have Marines doing pacification work and long-term planet or polity building.....

Marines are and will continue to be the fastest response mechanism available to the Imperium - travelling as fast as communications (that is to say, Marines Always Ride In Navy Equipment (MARINE)). So, they'll be put anywhere the Imperium deems it necessary to deploy force on short notice - it may be show the flag & intimidate the locals, it may be bash the crap out of some pirates or Vargr (as if you could distinguish...), it may be drop on a penny-ante local potentate with delusions of his own larger importance about to be suddenly corrected, or it may be as the spearpoint of a large scale planetary invasion during wartime.

They travel fast, hit hard [1], and they take and hold ground. OTOH, they probably (like modern MEUs) have SF and advanced recce capabilities as well as all sorts of integral support arms.

What they are not is a long-term substitute for the Army and COACC and Nautical Force guys. They can do the job 'as a stopgap'. But using them for long term ops like that is either wasting their capabilities and taking them out of peak fighting trim (doing OOTW on a planet isn't good training for opposed boardings on starships!) or it is tying up a useful mobile unit in a static role. Or both. But, if needs must, s'be't. For a time.

They are the 'hole fillers' and 'fire brigade' of the Imperium. The Army is more potent (in that it is much larger and can thus bring to bear a whack of assets), but they deploy more slowly and aren't as mobile.

Or so I say

[1] Marine forces can be deployed down to platoon sized forces for recce purposes, operating off of destroyers or the like. Any Marine force will have high tech firepower out of proportion to its TO&E numbers. But it will be a small TO&E, all told. These are the Few, and the Proud. But when it comes to large scale long term conflict, Proud isn't all that useful and Few is a key issue. The Army may be a buncha Dog-Soldiers (not Vargr, like..), but there are lots of them. Just what you need for pacifications and long term OOTW. Boots on the sand/dirt/frozen hydrogen/permacrete/whatever.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
This is massive steriotyping but.
The marines get sent in only after all else has failed, when they land if it moves it getts shot if it dosn't move you push it then shoot it.
After several weeks of apparent sensless mayhem and destruction the ARMY arrives and the survivers run to them to be protected from the maniacs (good cop bad cop).
The army is already the good guys for protecting the civis from the marines and the word is spreed that the marines are still insane (this makes it easier on the next world).

Comms officer - Sir a Marine combat group has just come out of hyperspace and they demand to talk to the Viceroy.
General in Command - right someone find some fall guys and shoot them and someone else escort the viceroy up from the dungeon (tell him we will give him anything if the marines will go away).
Winning a war is mostly perception, if you exspect to win you should if you know your going to loose you will.
Bye.

 

[womble]

I don't know where I got the idea from, but I think Canon includes Marines as security detachments for Starports. Not in every case, but sometimes.

 

[The Oz]

IMTU the Marines are a seldom seen but dangerous presence. I think of them as deployed on larger ships (cruisers and up) in platoon to battalion-sized forces for quick, violent reactions, or in purpose-built assault transports. My Imperial Marines land in drop capsules, fight in battledress (with built-in grav belts) armed with FGMP-14s. They are mobile, hard-hitting and well-protected.

I don't see Marines operating in regiments or larger formations unless there's a first-class war going on.

I also disagree with the canon tables of organization for Imperial Marines. It has been a constant in modern warfare (since the 1800's) that the number of men in the smallest tactical units has gone down with time. Squads have gone from 14 men to 10 to 8 to 6. I think Imperial Marines would operate in squads of 3 or 4 at most (I use 3 in my TOEs), platoons of 12 to 15, and companies of 40 to 50. An individual TRAVELLER Marine is more like a cross between a modern-day main battle tank and an attack helicopter in terms of his firepower, mobility and sensor range.

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by The Oz:
IMTU the Marines are a seldom seen but dangerous presence. I think of them as deployed on larger ships (cruisers and up) in platoon to battalion-sized forces for quick, violent reactions, or in purpose-built assault transports. My Imperial Marines land in drop capsules, fight in battledress (with built-in grav belts) armed with FGMP-14s. They are mobile, hard-hitting and well-protected.

I don't see Marines operating in regiments or larger formations unless there's a first-class war going on.

I also disagree with the canon tables of organization for Imperial Marines. It has been a constant in modern warfare (since the 1800's) that the number of men in the smallest tactical units has gone down with time. Squads have gone from 14 men to 10 to 8 to 6. I think Imperial Marines would operate in squads of 3 or 4 at most (I use 3 in my TOEs), platoons of 12 to 15, and companies of 40 to 50. An individual TRAVELLER Marine is more like a cross between a modern-day main battle tank and an attack helicopter in terms of his firepower, mobility and sensor range.

I thought canon also stated that for TL 14 most troops were still in Combat Armor and gauss rifles supported by guys in BattleDress and PGMP/FGMP weapons.

I always played the fire squad of five with two BattleDress PGMP/FGMP support to three soldiers in Combat Armor and gauss rifles.

Did I read that wrong?

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by ACK:
I thought canon also stated that for TL 14 most troops were still in Combat Armor and gauss rifles supported by guys in BattleDress and PGMP/FGMP weapons.

I always played the fire squad of five with two BattleDress PGMP/FGMP support to three soldiers in Combat Armor and gauss rifles.

Did I read that wrong?

You read it right, I believe. I just disagree with canon here: IMTU the Imperial Marines are equipped with the absolute best equipment I can think of to give them. This is just one of many areas where MTU diverges slightly from the OTU.

You don't want to get my Imperial Marines mad at you; they have access to other playtoys that I've not mentioned.

To offset the increased cost per Marine, my Imperial Marine units are smaller, as I said. In canon, Imperial Marine line infantry companies have almost 250 men and 25 grav APCs; mine, as I said above, have only 40 to 50 men and only four vehicles.

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by The Oz:
You read it right, I believe. I just disagree with canon here: IMTU the Imperial Marines are equipped with the absolute best equipment I can think of to give them. This is just one of many areas where MTU diverges slightly from the OTU.

You don't want to get my Imperial Marines mad at you; they have access to other playtoys that I've not mentioned.

To offset the increased cost per Marine, my Imperial Marine units are smaller, as I said. In canon, Imperial Marine line infantry companies have almost 250 men and 25 grav APCs; mine, as I said above, have only 40 to 50 men and only four vehicles.

Ok, dig this as a comprimise that keeps canon.

The way I described or the canon way is the way I will have army/occupation standard issue dirtside troops but Marines will be one notch up.

 

[The Oz]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 3rd Imperium is just so d*mn big that even a relatively small organization like the Imperial Marines will still differ from place to place.

The really first-line, top-notch Marine units will be facing the really serious enemies like the Zhodani and the Solomani, who have the highest TL and present the greatest risk of war. In areas facing other enemies (Aslani, Vargr, K'kree) the enemy is less capable or presents less of a threat and so Marine companies on those borders might still be equipped at a lesser standard. Well inside Imperial borders Marine units would be much more rare but might have the good equipment, being closer to the technological/industrial center of the Imperium.

That's how I would explain things if I had to, anyway.

 

[Cheng984]

I prefer larger sized units than 3 to 4 man squads. 3 to 4 man fireteams with two fireteams per squad plus a vehicle crew. This gives me the maximum amount of flexibility, while still letting a 22 year old first term 2nd Lieutenant control enough firepower to destroy a world!!!

What is the most dangerous thing in the universe?
A Second Lieutenant with a map, radio, and ortillery on-call!

 

[ACK!!]

Originally posted by Cheng984:
I prefer larger sized units than 3 to 4 man squads. 3 to 4 man fireteams with two fireteams per squad plus a vehicle crew. This gives me the maximum amount of flexibility, while still letting a 22 year old first term 2nd Lieutenant control enough firepower to destroy a world!!!

What is the most dangerous thing in the universe?
A Second Lieutenant with a map, radio, and ortillery on-call!

As an army brat, I might be coming off as completely ignorant but I thought a fireteam was 3-5 men. Like fingers on hand was the phrase I remember from somewhere.

Was I wrong about that?

2 fireteams + vehicle crew = squad

How many people in a platoon?

4 squads?

I thought that a platoon was close 40 men.