IISS Census Parameters

[far-trader]

Yes, that old Pop code issue again

A recent/current discussion is skirting/engaging the problem again and I had a thought pop (bad pun) into my head and thought I'd throw it out here for discussion. Perhaps it or a close cousin has already been floated...

The Pop code of the UWP is not necessarily the entire population of the world or system. Just as the Starport is not the entirety of the world or system space capability.

In both cases it is the Imperial* (and therefor recognized and legitimate, for Imperial purposes) factor. That is:

A Pop 9 is an approximation of the Imperial Citizens of a system. High Pop systems will have few if any non-Imperial Citizens.

A Pop 1 on the other hand may very well mean many non-Imperial citizens. Either free people, aligned subjects, or some other non-rated population.

Likewise a Starport Class that may seem misplaced only indicates the Imperial presence and capacity, not necessarily the non-Imperial local capacity.

For example:

A seemingly incongruous UWP of a Class D Starport and Low Pop on an otherwise large garden world surrounded by more populous systems with small less than ideal worlds. Why don't those people move to the nicer world and build a better starport? Because that world is more independant. It has a large non-Imperial (Citizenship) population and local space capability. None of which is readily accessible to Travellers. So the visiting Imperial Free-Trader is limited to low cargo and passenger transport, and poor port facilities. Right next to the bustling, gleaming, high tech local port. Many Imperial Citizens on those nearby worlds would love to move here but immigration is severely limited.

* NOTE: Substitute other polities as required

 

[aramis]

I prefer to treat it as the entire sentient biological population of the world rated and it's immediate orbital habs. Especially since several UWP listing sets include percentages of non-humans when those exceed 10%, and all non-imperial worlds (and most client states) have non-0 codes.

Your proposed "imperials only" mode forces a dichotomy that isn't terribly useful.

The low-pop yards are better explained away as a single slip with a couple guys supervising an almost entirely automated process.

 

[MCEvans]

I always presumed that with the exception of balkinized or interdicted worlds that the whole population of sentients were Imperial* citizens. There are exceptions to this also, chirper populations.

For your example of - D starport, low pop garden world surrounded by higher pop less than garden worlds. My questions would be;
What is the TL of the garden world?
What is the TLs of the surrounding systems?
Would it worth the cost to bootstrap the garden system?
and
Would the garden world still be a garden after a major influx of people and technology?

 

[steventirey1985]

One problem with the pop code being imperials only - trade codes. If a pop A world has few imperial citizens (Say enough for a pop 1), what set of trade codes do you use? Is the planet low pop or high pop?

If it is classified as low pop, why? Surely you can trade just as easily with the non-imperials. Just because they aren't citizens doesn't mean they stop needing/wanting things. And if the planet is classified as high pop, why bother having separate codes for imperial and non-imperial citizens?

Either the planet has X people living on it (or around it) or it doesn't. (Also, if the code is for imperial citizens, then nearly every Vargr, Zhodani, etc world will probably have a code of 0, from the Imperiums point of view. I'm pretty sure that the Imperium wants to know that a billion of the enemy live on a world before they send in the troops. They will need to know the total population, not just Imperial citizens.)

 

[Dragoner]

Maybe the Garden planet has Grendels or is like Harrison's Deathworld? I know later there were special annotations for non-human sophonts on a planet, but they didn't help with earlier versions. However, we also know that the survey isn't always accurate, there was an adventure about it and that could seem to lead to another conclusion about who is doing the surveying. Ultimately it is better left to the GM to decide and if a better more exciting adventure can be made of it, so much the better.

 

[rancke]

The low-pop yards are better explained away as a single slip with a couple guys supervising an almost entirely automated process.

And why would anyone set up such an operation in a star system where there are no local defense forces to make sure ethically challenged people with guns don't come along and steal valuable, almost-finished ships (Or steal highly valuable automated factories, for that matter[*])?

[*] If the factory units were modularized enough to transport to Lowpopworld and set up, they can be disassembled and transported away again.​

Hans

 

[aramis]

And why would anyone set up such an operation in a star system where there are no local defense forces to make sure ethically challenged people with guns don't come along and steal valuable, almost-finished ships (Or steal highly valuable automated factories, for that matter[*])?

[*] If the factory units were modularized enough to transport to Lowpopworld and set up, they can be disassembled and transported away again.​

Hans

If they're sufficiently automated for 5 men to craft a starship, even a small one, they're most likely sufficiently automated to have automated weapons systems. It's not like we're talking about TL 6 shipyards.

 

[rancke]

If they're sufficiently automated for 5 men to craft a starship, even a small one, they're most likely sufficiently automated to have automated weapons systems. It's not like we're talking about TL 6 shipyards.

So now you add the cost of sizable automated defenses to the operation. Or they could hire military forces to protect the site. Either way, it makes the finished product more expensive.


Hans

 

[samuelvss]

IMTU I have assumed/understood that the population was the permanent population of sentients living outside the extraterritoriality line. Thus, a class A starport could be essentially self-supporting on a world where noone wanted to live elsewhere, based on trade and shipyard services.

 

[MCEvans]

Is not a D starport the most basic 'manned' starport being 1-3 pads, unrefined fuel, basic maintenance facilities and a staff from 1-5 maybe more if it's a 'busy' D starport. A ship in 'port' is going to be a do-it-yourself operation. :devil: There are no building facilities for spaceship or starship. :frankie:

If you start expanding, adding automation and shipyards for spaceships (non-jump) you have a low to average class C that can grow.

An E class is a pad, a landing beacon and a port log/recorder.

 

[samuelvss]

Is not a D starport the most basic 'manned' starport being 1-3 pads, unrefined fuel, basic maintenance facilities and a staff from 1-5 maybe more if it's a 'busy' D starport. A ship in 'port' is going to be a do-it-yourself operation. :devil: There are no building facilities for spaceship or starship. :frankie:

If you start expanding, adding automation and shipyards for spaceships (non-jump) you have a low to average class C that can grow.

An E class is a pad, a landing beacon and a port log/recorder.

Yes, a D would have some spaces and tools available for basic DIY repairs to ships. For D starports on Pop 0 worlds, I have had them manned by IISS folks; other options involve commercial concerns, typically as part of a larger venture. E.g., I had a D starport, on a TL4 world, with Pop 0.

My story was that there had been a (fairly extensive, Pop 5) society at TL4, which was wiped out by the radiation from a solar flare. There were, however, TL4 tools, workshops, machines and weapons to be had; the IISS there (4 of them) obviously had some higher TL stuff there, but they could not make it, or even sustain it for any indefinite period. They, or any visitors, could get, make, repair, and indefinitely sustain a decent range of TL4 goods. The IISS could reassign any of the personnel there, however, supplement them, or reduce them; they were transitory, and lived on and because of the starport. This is why this was a Pop 0, not a Pop 1, world.

 

[aramis]

A D-port is defined by having unrefined fuel, and no repair facilities.
TTB, p. 84

D Poor quality installation.
Only unrefined fuel available. No repair
or shipyard facilities present. Scout
base may be present​

It's a marked spot of bedrock with a water pump and a guy to charge you for it. Possibly a Life Support Shop and catering service.

Quite possibly also a fence, saying on the pad-side, "local law applies beyond this point."

 

[MCEvans]

Pre-fab D

the fanzine Third Imperium in #7 had a prefab D that could fit into 3 10ton cargo containers for 1.13MCr and available at any TL13+ A starport. One up it is staffed by three people.

I actually use this for a Combat Engineering Mercenary Platoon and am writing an AmberZone like adventure in the Foreven Sector for its use. :devil:

 

[RainOfSteel]

For example:

A seemingly incongruous UWP [...]

This falls under the category of creating UWP excuses to justify them as a result of worlds being generated completely in isolation, but existing in reality next to many others. There is no accounting for things like the basic reality of movement of populations, availability of resources (or even a resources stat outside of T20), or preferable trade routes.

I feel that each GM is free to account for UWP realities as desired. As long as that information is available somehow and the GM is not using UWP lines to "fool" the players.

For the GM to track, and the Players to understand, IMO this would require a second Pop stat for the Non-Imperial count (with a non-Imperial multiplier, as well). From a data modeling perspective, this causes issues with accounting for population totals, as you will have sum up two separate sets of statistics to determine actual population totals.

I personally dislike UWP interpretations that allow for realities on-world such that there are entire "populations not accounted for" in the published Pop stat, as described in the example above, but that is just a personal preference. Mistakes or changes over time, I don't mind those so much, but having Pop 8 on-world when Pop 1 is listed is beyond what I am willing to do IMTU; just as long as this issue does not occur too often. When I run a sum of the population of the worlds from their UWPs in my electronic database, I only have to use the Population and Multiplier stats to determine the total. Doing this for two separate sets of stats would be beyond annoying from a programming perspective.

It can also be stated that the world in the example in question was recently released from Reserve world status, or some such regulatory nonsense. Bureaucracy is pretty much the proverbial middle name of the Imperium.

Personally I wish that there had been a way, back in the day, to integrate UWP generation into four stages, physical stat generation, placement into the star charts, placement of initial social stats (the first worlds with populations), and then run many developmental advancements over the intervening centuries, with each "run" generating a dated UWP so allowing for easy dialing in of UWPs by date going all the way back to Vland at the dawn of interstellar travel. Ah, dreams.

 

[RainOfSteel]

A D-port is defined by having unrefined fuel, and no repair facilities.
TTB, p. 84

[...]
Only unrefined fuel available.
[...]​

It's a marked spot of bedrock with a water pump and a guy to charge you for it. Possibly a Life Support Shop and catering service.

When I check, I come up with 540 worlds that are Starport D and Hydrographics 0.

This suggests that a Starport D has to have a specific amount of installed local fuel tankage to serve as a refueling source. It also implies that the port has someway to replenish the supply, and integral small craft are not (to me) suggested in the port description. A minor dilemma.

For systems with a gas giant or other body with a water source (and not many systems have more than the basic UWP, so knowing whether there are other bodies with water isn't going to be possible), if there was an integral small craft attached to the port (which would seem to be a bit beyond the port description), it could service the port's fuel tank when needed.

For systems without a gas giant or other body with a water source, it would require interstellar shipment of fuel. It sounds like the work of of subsidized merchant. Except that with the delays implied by interstellar travel, any Starport D could be drained of its fuel and have been unable to replenish in time for the next call on its resources. I would think that in order to cover against delays, enough tankage would be required to refuel several vessels. Say, around dTon 500-750.

Oh, wait. I am thinking of smaller vessels, but the realities of interstellar transport mean that, of course, larger vessels may stop by and legitimately call upon the Starport's fuel supply. So, realistically, the installed local tankage, multiplied to cover for several vessels, would have to be around 500,000 dTons. That seems unrealistic in comparison to the scope of a Starport D, but the description says it has refueling available without regard to the size of vessels calling upon the port. A Navy task force could happen by and require quick refueling, too. A few hundred dTons aren't going to cover that. Nor would some small subsidized merchant.

I always did think the starport descriptions were a bit inadequate for my tastes. Obviously, they were only meant to cover Book 2 ship size ranges. This does not change that there are larger vessels which require service at Starport D facilities.

 

[aramis]

A book 2 max fuel ship is 5000x0.6+60=3060 tons. (Edit: actually, 5KTd Bk2 design maxes at J2, for a mere 1020 tons of fuel...) The D-port should be able to refuel at least ONE that size, I'd agree.

A 5000Td reservoir is about the point I'd pick for a "normal" D-port without a local hydrographic source. I don't think most D-Ports will have an actual reservoir, at least not if there's a local hydrographic source to pump from.

And 5K tons is just enough to get a Bk2 TL 14 J4 battle squadron of 8-10 800Td ships. Or half a squadron of TL15 J6 3000Td Carriers...

Or one Bk5 J4 escort in the 10KTd range...

But shipping it isn't economical, unless the fuel is shipped on entirely on a local subsidy paid for out of taxes... or is shipped in system on a dedicated large craft collier. Possibly from the far outer system...

Even then, it's still likely to be more than Cr100/Ton... unless there's a fuel source within a couple days at 2G in system, preferably on world.

Still, worlds with nothing else going I don't hesitate to jack the cost of unrefined fuel at C/D ports right up to the refined rates... or beyond, if there's nothing within J2.

 

[rancke]

Since desert worlds (Hydrographics 0) can have up to 4% free-standing water and any amount of underground water, you can always explain away availability of unrefined fuel at Class D starports. You don't have to -- you're free to establish that in any particular case Hyd 0 means no water at all -- but you can.


Hans

 

[Starviking]

This falls under the category of creating UWP excuses to justify them as a result of worlds being generated completely in isolation, but existing in reality next to many others. There is no accounting for things like the basic reality of movement of populations, availability of resources (or even a resources stat outside of T20), or preferable trade routes.

Something that comes across in spades when you look a the pocket empires beyond the fringes of the Imperium, and presumably generated using the general rules. Lots of polities out there without the tech to actually jump between member worlds, or with a microscopic stellar tech and the masses at pre-stellar levels, or with their powerhouses shackled with mediocre starports. Stuff that might be explainable in the Imperium - but ridiculous for an independent state.

I personally dislike UWP interpretations that allow for realities on-world such that there are entire "populations not accounted for" in the published Pop stat, as described in the example above, but that is just a personal preference. Mistakes or changes over time, I don't mind those so much, but having Pop 8 on-world when Pop 1 is listed is beyond what I am willing to do IMTU

I can cope with the order of magnitude differences in pop stats for low-population worlds - but as you say, pop stat leaps can break the suspension of disbelief.

Personally I wish that there had been a way, back in the day, to integrate UWP generation into four stages, physical stat generation, placement into the star charts, placement of initial social stats (the first worlds with populations), and then run many developmental advancements over the intervening centuries, with each "run" generating a dated UWP so allowing for easy dialing in of UWPs by date going all the way back to Vland at the dawn of interstellar travel. Ah, dreams.

That would have been nice.

 

[Starviking]

The low-pop yards are better explained away as a single slip with a couple guys supervising an almost entirely automated process.

Or perhaps contract workers can be whisked up to account for the lack of population to construct ships.

 

[far-trader]

In reply to my mutterings...

This falls under the category of creating UWP excuses to justify them...

Absolutely. Another bit I thought I was clear about but I think my first post left far too much "between the lines" based on the replies. I was too rushed and will have to find some time to make myself clearer and expand on my thoughts

Chiefly I thought my idea was a new(ish) twist on said methodology, one that allowed the UWP to remain untouched and as much or more the point permit the random nature of generation to remain untouched with my idea as an escape clause.

Most of what you've noted is covered by the idea that the UWP is strictly the Imperial (polity) interest, anything not covered by it is not a factor. The (for example) UWP Population is the only part of the population that matters for interaction with the Imperium (polity) and it's agents such as Free Traders. There may well be millions more locally who would like to book passage or ship freight aboard the Beowulf but they just can't because they aren't Citizens. Sucks to be them. Of course they might stow away or slip some cargo aboard for smuggling

As for UWP change over time that's an equally easy one. The UWP is clearly a snapshot of the situation at the time of the Survey. Things can, and do change. There are even canon examples of notations of changes to some UWPs over time, not even counting the typos

EDIT: One more quick clarification/explanation: Citizen vs Subject - Imperial (polity) Citizens are above the usual population of the Imperium (polity). Through service or special privilege they have the trust of the Imperium to act in accordance with its desires and goals. This grants, among other things, freedom to travel throughout the Imperium. Subjects are generally limited to travel within their home system and that only on local transport.