IISS Academy?

[Duke Craig]

Thanks for this great idea. "snip"

 

[Meteoric Assault]

That is what it is there for

 

[talos402000]

It makes sense that the Scout service has an academy. I seriously doubt they take anybody off the street, give them a ship, and then say "have fun". And yes they do have rank and structure. Who decides to send which scouts where? Who reads and collates all the reports they turn in? Who signs their paychecks? Who decides when a scout has stepped over the line and needs to be disciplined? Who is in charge of the scout bases?
Also, the Scout Service is also the Imperium's intelligence service, you better believe someone is giving orders out. The Scouts cherish their "Lone Wolf" image, but in reality behind every Scout is a large group of support staff.

 

[aramis]

While I agree that they have initial training, probably 2-4 months long, and that it could be called an Academy (much like most police agencies), I don't think they would have a collegiate academy for administrators.

Especially given the wonkiness of most of the organization being purely positional authority. Great IMTU resource, but incompatible with the "Just enough laws and indoctrination to keep oneself from getting hanged.

Hell, the canonical IISS is mostly long-haul truckers type duty. ("Just a man and his ship, and a whole lotta space....")

 

[Black Vulmea]

It makes sense that the Scout service has an academy. I seriously doubt they take anybody off the street, give them a ship, and then say "have fun".

I doubt that, too, since Book 6 says that the first year of a scout's career is training.

And yes they do have rank and structure. Who decides to send which scouts where?

Scout bureaucrats in the Administration and Operations offices.

Who reads and collates all the reports they turn in?

Scout bureaucrats in the Administration, Operations, and Technical offices.

Who signs their paychecks?

Scout bureaucrats in the Administration office.

Who decides when a scout has stepped over the line and needs to be disciplined?

Scout bureaucrats in the Operations office.

Who is in charge of the scout bases?

Scout bureaucrats in the Operations office.

You don't have to take my word for it; the functions of the IISS bureaucracy are spelled out in Book 6, pp 5-6.

Also, the Scout Service is also the Imperium's intelligence service, you better believe someone is giving orders out. The Scouts cherish their "Lone Wolf" image, but in reality behind every Scout is a large group of support staff.

Yes, the scout bureaucrats.

For those who feel the field scouts also need ranks, I refer you to the Incident Command System, under which personnel are assigned by their qualifications rather than their rank. Incident staffing is fluid, based on training, skill, and need.

When I was a park ranger, I was qualified as a wildland firefighter I and II, engine boss, crew boss, initial attack incident commander, and resource monitor. Sometimes I served as an engine or handcrew member, sometimes as a captain, sometimes as IC, sometimes as a resource monitor, depending on the incident. I was also qualified as a search-and-rescue manager, and I served as a searcher, SAR team leader, operations manager, and incident commander, again depending on the specific incident. As such, I often found myself leading or supervising other personnel with higher 'ranks' than my own, or sometimes working under others with lower 'rank' than mine.

I see field scouts operating under the same paradigm. Field staffing is based on the needs of the mission, as determined by the scout bureaucracy: the right sophont for the right job. It's a fairly progressive stance to running an organisation with such a diverse range of responsibilities, actually.

Personally, I find a scout academy to be superfluous; the organisation as presented makes sense to me, and it's distinct from other services, in keeping with the nature of the IISS, which adds to the appeal.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

For those who feel the field scouts also need ranks, I refer you to the Incident Command System, under which personnel are assigned by their qualifications rather than their rank. Incident staffing is fluid, based on training, skill, and need.

I see field scouts operating under the same paradigm. Field staffing is based on the needs of the mission, as determined by the scout bureaucracy: the right sophont for the right job. It's a fairly progressive stance to running an organisation with such a diverse range of responsibilities, actually.

Personally, I find a scout academy to be superfluous; the organisation as presented makes sense to me, and it's distinct from other services, in keeping with the nature of the IISS, which adds to the appeal.

The argument for the incident command system works in "incidents", I should know as well as a former field supervisor (Lt was the rank I had) in a Urban High volume EMS system, and I was a paid Vol Fire Lt in a Large 60% paid /40% vol Fire/EMS Dept. Your analogy fails on three issues... 'incident', Third Imperium, massive budget ( which means accountability)

Even if you take you analogy of ICS I would say 100% of Fire and EMS organizations have a distinct chain of command for operational functions, which at times can mirror administrative authority.

Taking your analogy a step further think of the academy as Oklahoma State University which has one of the nationally ranked Fire Service 4 year programs. Or University of Maryland of Baltimore County ( I am an alumnus ) which has a 4 and 6 year EMS program for Management, Education and Research. I attended UMBC for CCEMT-P and Management for my 2nd Degree. So is the Academy really superfluous, that is subjective.

I am not at all convinced by your argument.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

The argument for the incident command system works in "incidents", I should know as well as a former field supervisor (Lt was the rank I had) in a Urban High volume EMS system, and I was a paid Vol Fire Lt in a Large 60% paid /40% vol Fire/EMS Dept. Your analogy fails on three issues... 'incident', Third Imperium, massive budget ( which means accounatnbility)

Even if you take you analogy of ICS I would say 100% of Fire and EMS organizations have a distinct chain of command for operational functions, which at times can mirror administrative authority.

Taking your analogy a step further think of the academy as Oklahoma State University which has one of the nationally ranked Fire Service 4 year programs. Or University of Maryland of Baltimore County ( I am an alumnus ) which has a 4 and 6 year EMS program for Management, Education and Research. I attended UMBC for CCEMT-P and Management for my 2nd Degree. So is the Academy really superfluous, that is subjective.

I am not at all convinced by your argument.

Sidebar: Qualifications:
11 Years Military - Non-Commissioned Officer (11B/C "P" Series and 91W "W1 & P")
14 year Fire/EMS : Asst Field Supervisor (Lt)- High Volume Urban System, Large Metropolitan County- Vol. EMS Lt & Vol Fire Lt, Adjunct EMS Instructor College Level.

Certs I Held:
FF I & II, FFO I, FF Instructor I, HTR- Rope II, Vehicle Extraction, Hazmat Ops, Pumper Ops, NREMT-P, CCEMT-P, EMS-Instructor (BTLS-A, PHTLS-A, ACLS, BCLS, TC3, EMT-B & I).

As far as ranks... the Shift captain or Lt always needs to tell the 'probie' to roll the hose, or lay a reverse lay or clean up the bunk room.

 

[coliver988]

There's always room for additional professional education. I write software for a living, and things are always in flux (I miss COBOL ) My wife is also a firefighter and is always getting more education as you can always learn if there are better ways of handling incidents, managing people, and so forth. Even if not formally required, additional education may help a person to be better qualified for the position they are already in.

I'm leaning towards most service-based positions (Navy, Scouts, fire fighting ) will always have academies that can be attended at any point in someone's career. I think I'd even allow any of the academies to be attempted in lieu of a term at any point rather than just at the beginning. So you did not make your promotion - go to the academy and brush up on those skills and have a better change at promotion.

Hmm, and maybe an academy graduate gets a DM for promotions (positive if they made it through, negative otherwise).

Just some thoughts.

 

[Redcap]

I reckon the key thing here is that you don't just stick a new recruit into a ship, and say "off you go", without first having given to poor sap some basic indoctrination and training in the job; this requires at the very least, a training cadre, a training facility (let's call that a school), and at least a small level of admin resources (headquarters), along with a corporate stores (quartermaster), armoury and arsenal, ship maintenance and procurement, ah... the list is getting longer. See? It can't be just a bunch of folks in ships, there has to be some kind of organised organisation behind them, and that leads to a level of hierarchy being required, even if it's minimal. It can't always be a Chinese Parliament, folks: At the end of the decision-making process, there will always be some sophont making the decisions. Which means that rank and responsibilities must be assigned in the organisation, be it military or civilian.

 

[atpollard]

Come on.
Let's at least be honest in our disagreements.
This is about the Imperial Interstellar Scout Academy.

Whether you think an IISS Academy is a good idea or not, no one would seriously argue that the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis exists so that young seamen are not forced to deploy on a PT boat with absolutely no training. Nor does it exists so that career seamen can brush up on the latest firefighting techniques. Nor does it exist to ensure that the Navy Quartermaster Corps can adequately train clerks to keep the supplies flowing.

If the IISS has an Academy, and it may or may not depending on other education options and preferences IYTU, it will not exist to teach basic flight to every Scout recruit or basic Administration to every prospective clerk.

If you really want to sell ME on an IISS Academy, then:

What does the IISS Academy teach that is vital to the IISS mission and not available at a community college or 6 week course?

That is a question really worth discussing.
[YMMV]

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Come on.
Let's at least be honest in our disagreements.
This is about the Imperial Interstellar Scout Academy.

Whether you think an IISS Academy is a good idea or not, no one would seriously argue that the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis exists so that young seamen are not forced to deploy on a PT boat with absolutely no training. Nor does it exists so that career seamen can brush up on the latest firefighting techniques. Nor does it exist to ensure that the Navy Quartermaster Corps can adequately train clerks to keep the supplies flowing.

If the IISS has an Academy, and it may or may not depending on other education options and preferences IYTU, it will not exist to teach basic flight to every Scout recruit or basic Administration to every prospective clerk.

If you really want to sell ME on an IISS Academy, then:

What does the IISS Academy teach that is vital to the IISS mission and not available at a community college or 6 week course?

That is a question really worth discussing.
[YMMV]

Good question How long does it take to acquire a skill level 1? Piloting? Navigation?... Okay I concede Vaccsuit is a 6 week course. Admin- maybe 8 weeks
if that is the case maybe we should add Survey, liaison and communications to the roll for skills.

 

[Redcap]

Basic service structure and admin, basic kit care (this is how to wear and look after the stuff we just issued to you), basic sensor ops (use, interpretation, and basic fault-finding and user fixes) both ship-mounted and portable, the cardinal does and don'ts when on a new world, and a few q&d's on how to behave in the company of other scouts and civilians, would probably cover a six to eight week in doc & training course, I would think

 

[atpollard]

Good question How long does it take to acquire a skill level 1? Piloting? Navigation?... Okay I concede Vaccsuit is a 6 week course. Admin- maybe 8 weeks
if that is the case maybe we should add Survey, liaison and communications to the roll for skills.

Using the real Naval Academy as an example, there are lots of places where you can study Mechanical Engineering or Structural Engineering ... but if you want the latest research on reactive armor and plasma lance warheads (or whatever the heck they are working on, I am a fan of pre-gunpowder technology) then the Naval Academy may have a leg up on MIT or UCLA.

For the IISS, they have a need for the squishy sciences (Sociology, Cultural Anthropology, Group Dynamics, Communication) that the Army, Navy and Marines do not. The question becomes ... do the regular Colleges fill this need?

For the head of a department, a regular MBA should serve the IISS just fine.
The question becomes one of dealing with alien species and foreign (non-Imperial) cultures to evaluate whatever it is that the IISS is sent out to evaluate.

... and that starts to become an IYTU answer.

Does the CIA have an Academy?

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Using the real Naval Academy as an example, there are lots of places where you can study Mechanical Engineering or Structural Engineering ... but if you want the latest research on reactive armor and plasma lance warheads (or whatever the heck they are working on, I am a fan of pre-gunpowder technology) then the Naval Academy may have a leg up on MIT or UCLA.

For the IISS, they have a need for the squishy sciences (Sociology, Cultural Anthropology, Group Dynamics, Communication) that the Army, Navy and Marines do not. The question becomes ... do the regular Colleges fill this need?

For the head of a department, a regular MBA should serve the IISS just fine.
The question becomes one of dealing with alien species and foreign (non-Imperial) cultures to evaluate whatever it is that the IISS is sent out to evaluate.

... and that starts to become an IYTU answer.

Does the CIA have an Academy?

Blue U and the Camp....considering my GF ( Grandfather) was a DDCIA yep know a lot about it.

 

[Black Vulmea]

. . . I should know as well as a former field supervisor (Lt was the rank I had) in a Urban High volume EMS system, and I was a paid Vol Fire Lt in a Large 60% paid /40% vol Fire/EMS Dept.

Sidebar: Qualifications:
11 Years Military . . . 14 year Fire/EMS . . .

So, you come from a background in two of the most rigidly hierarchical organizations - the military and urban fire/EMS - in modern society.

It was this rigid hierarchical thinking that produced ICS in the first place, because of incidents where a nominal division chief with minimal wildland firefighting experience would be put in charge of a fireground for no better reason than he had three bugles on his collar and property was destroyed and lives lost as a result.

The argument for the incident command system works in "incidents" . . .

In what meaningful ways does an incident differ from a mission, other than duration?

Even if you take you analogy of ICS I would say 100% of Fire and EMS organizations have a distinct chain of command for operational functions, which at times can mirror administrative authority.

And so does the IISS - it's called the scout bureaucracy, as described in Book 6.

As far as ranks... the Shift captain or Lt always needs to tell the 'probie' to roll the hose, or lay a reverse lay or clean up the bunk room.

Scouts in the Operations office provide routine supervision - it's not by chance that the first service skill a scout assigned to Operations learns is Leader-1.

Again, you don't have to take my word for it, as we have an example of IISS qualifications-based staffing in Traveller. In Grand Survey, the ten-sophont crew of a Donosev-class survey scout is spelled out, including the minimum skills required to hold each position. The pilot, who is also the mission commander, is required to have a minimum of Pilot-2, the ship's doctor is required to have Medical-3, the lead surveyor is required to have Survey-2, and so on; other skills, such as Survival, Air/Raft. and so on are usually present among the crew assigned to the survey scout.

Now put yourself in the shoes of a Scout Leader (O7/IS-16) commanding a survey scout squadron. Among the assignments on your desk is a routine Class II survey to catalog the abundance of surface fresh water on a thinly populated world - this is pretty routine stuff. so you can assign field scouts from the IGS with the minimum qualifications to crew the assigned survey scout.

Also sitting on your desk is a class IV survey of an asteroid belt, to identify lanthanum deposits as a strategic Imperial resource. This is a hazardous assignment - independent belters don't want the Imperium sniffing around, because they know that's just one step removed from big mining platforms moving in and edging the independents out, plus the system is a known haven for smugglers and pirates. For this mission, you must select a highly skilled and experienced crew of IGS field scouts, one with exceptional skills not only in their crew specialties but also related skills like Vacc Suit and Zero-G Combat; you might even put a Scout Commander (O6/IS-15) in the pilot's seat, commanding the mission with her mix of Pilot-4 and Leader-3, due to its risks and sensitivity.

I am not at all convinced by your argument.

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

Coming from the urban fire service, your skepticism isn't surprising; it also fits your pattern of posting on this and other topics.

Coming from a background in the Park Service, I've seen how this works in a real-world organization, where a GS-9 ranger may move from sub-district ranger in a big park to district ranger or chief ranger in a smaller park or even superintendent of a small monument, or move out of visitor management and fire safety - the 'pine pig' side of the service - altogether to spend a couple of years as a district naturalist or chief interpreter - the 'fern feeler' naturalist-rangers - or working in an administrative role like concessions manager, to be qualified for superintendent of a 'crown jewel' park someday.

In any case, if you think scouts in your pretend space empire should look like the fire service you know and I think scouts in my pretend space empire should look like the land management agencies I know, then that's why we have 'IMTU' to fall back on.

With that in mind, please dial back your defensiveness toward those who disagree with you; really, we can play star merchants and space pirates differently from one another, and that's okay.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

"So, you come from a background in two of the most rigidly hierarchical organizations - the military and urban fire/EMS - in modern society."

It was this rigid hierarchical thinking that produced ICS in the first place, because of incidents where a nominal division chief with minimal wildland firefighting experience would be put in charge of a fireground for no better reason than he had three bugles on his collar and property was destroyed and lives lost as a result.
And so does the IISS - it's called the scout bureaucracy, as described in Book 6.

Coming from the urban fire service, your skepticism isn't surprising; it also fits your pattern of posting on this and other topics.

With that in mind, please dial back your defensiveness toward those who disagree with you; really, we can play star merchants and space pirates differently from one another, and that's okay.

1. I am sorry, "you come from a background in two of the most rigidly hierarchical organizations", is this supposed to criticism or a jab? I am curious, you can't read tone through a screen.

2. The criticism of a division chief, what does that have to do with this? Where have I critiqued the park service. Just for information, my father a retired colonel, was also a retired chief park ranger in a state park service. I have seen both worlds.

3. My coming from an urban fire setting fits a pattern of posting? Really, how interesting...am I being psycho-analyised now.

4. "dial back your defensiveness", I am not being defensive. I merely pointed out the flaws in your argument. I am sorry if you felt that way. Is there anything I can do to put you at ease? I didn't feel the need to get up on my my wooden horse become critical of your profession, or analyze you. I am really sorry you felt the need to do so.

have a good day.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*whoop-whoop*

HEY, YOU!

Yeah, the both of you! Cool your jets fellas before someone crosses a line and I need to put the Hat on and start writing citations.

Alright?

Now, you gents have a nice day.

 

[Drakon]

Using the real Naval Academy as an example, there are lots of places where you can study Mechanical Engineering or Structural Engineering ... but if you want the latest research on reactive armor and plasma lance warheads (or whatever the heck they are working on, I am a fan of pre-gunpowder technology) then the Naval Academy may have a leg up on MIT or UCLA.

For the IISS, they have a need for the squishy sciences (Sociology, Cultural Anthropology, Group Dynamics, Communication) that the Army, Navy and Marines do not. The question becomes ... do the regular Colleges fill this need?

Several years back, I was research oribital dynamics for some reason, and has purchased two books on the subject. One was a standard college textbook, while the other was published by the US Air Force, apparently for use in their academy.

The college text was a lot of abstract math that frankly was difficult to follow. The academy text was more down to earth and did a better job of explaining how to get results you were looking for. One books treated the subject as a purely mental exercise, as an esoteric amusement to entertain the mind. The other book treated the subject as a set of skills employed to accomplish a task.

So while the local junior college or major university may be able to teach you each subject scouts require, they may not do it in a manner that is readily useful to a pan galactic semi-military informal intelligence service. Therefore it makes sense that the scouts would have their own academy, like the other services.

 

[Redcap]

That's probably the best reason for the IISS to have its own school