Human Devolution?

[Jeff M. Hopper]

I've been doing some research on a nother project and have been reading up on what little information there is on the Long Night. Many worlds already sliding into darkness during the Second Imperium had their civilizations crash durin the Long Night. So I was wondering, if a world with most of its technological support gone and its population crashing, could the inhabitants of that world actually devolve during the Long Night? Could a human revert from Homo Sapiens to Homo Neanderthalis over a period of time?

I'm thinking not, but I'd like to get some input on this concept.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Probably not without significant environmental factors truly physically altering them to adapt, which would take a long time. I could see a population mutating though in only a few generations with outside help (a destroyed environment or radioactive environment would really mess things up). Devolution would need some reason to happen. The political situation and even basic societal factors would all have to go and the subject people revert to "barbarism" first. (Tribes and all that)

It just would seem that physiological changes would need to have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years to occur naturally.

Cool topic!

 

[stofsk]

No, they wouldn't.

In terms of society, devolution is possible but unlikely; that said, it all depends on the circumstances. It has been said that a major city like New York is a week away from barbarism should things like food supplies be cut off. Societal break down is a possibility. The fall of Rome resulted in the dark ages after all. However, one thing that safeguards against this is available knowledge and education. To use a saying I read in a book long ago, the Dark Ages weren't called that because it was literally dark, but because they simply refused to see the light. Were contemporary western civilisation to fall today (don't laugh, peak oil and global warming are two elements that equal pain to our little planet and our civilisation) we would still have knowledge stored in textbooks and so on.

In terms of biology, I do not think there is any way a species can 'devolve'. Especially not where they would 'devolve' into an earlier species. H. Neanderthalis was an evolutionary dead-end; there's a reason why we came out on top.

A more likely sci-fi scenario is some kind of beserk retrovirus that causes widespread mutation, or more purposeful genetic engineering. Better yet, steer clear of the sci-fi elements. Simply ask yourself "What would happen to a society if things they depend on - food, water, energy - was suddenly cut off? What would happen?"

In the original series of Star Trek, the episode "The Conscience of the King" dealt with this theme by having a far-flung colony succumb to an exotic fungus that destroyed much of the available food supply. The colony administrator assumed dictatorial powers, executed half of the population on eugenics grounds, all so that the other half could live (presumably 50% of the food supply had been extinguished). Frankly I can see something like this being the norm during The Long Night. In fact, I suspect the circumstances would be far more extreme (in the above scenario, I wouldn't be surprised if cannablism was not at least considered, let alone implemented - you may balk at that, but there have been many tales told of isolated survivors who are forced to eat the dead in order to survive long enough to be found by rescuers).

 

[Fritz_Brown]

It all depends on your assumptions about evolution. The standard assumption is that it takes thousands of years for each tiny step. Of course, the current assumption is also that, while a particular bit of evolution imparts a survival benefit, the old species doesn't necessarily die out (IOW, no dramatic evolutionary pressure).

All that being said, I agree with stofsk and the Baron that something like a retrovirus/radiation could provide some evolutionary pressure. Otherwise, almost all "evolution" of man in the last 4,000 years has been societal - and that would be where your devolution would take place.

The first step of which would obviously be wearing plastic suits and wearing little plastic hats shaped like a pyramid of increasingly smaller disks placed atop one another....

 

[atpollard]

It could happen deliberately. A world with toxic local plants and animals that was cut off from the food imports needed to survive could choose to geneticly alter itself to tolerate the local conditions. This would actually be an accelerated mutation rather than a reversed evolution.

The key issue is that ANY change would require a reason to happen. There are few advantages to sliding back to a more primitive physical state.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Originally posted by stofsk:
Were contemporary western civilisation to fall today (don't laugh, peak oil and global warming are two elements that equal pain to our little planet and our civilisation) we would still have knowledge stored in textbooks and so on.

More and more information is being stored electronically, and fewer and fewer people know how to do basic tasks (like making fire). We really rely on technology a lot now, and we'd be in trouble without it.

 

[etherflyer]

Short answer: no.

Evolution works one-way. Under similar evolutionary pressures, you might end up with something similar to, say Neaderthals, but they wouldn't <b>be</b> Neanderthals. Even retroviruses etc wouldn't 'wind back' the clock.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

OK, I've been reading the colony thread and stumbled across something interesting.

If devolution is not possible, then reverting to barbarism is more likely. I've been researching feral humans today (over a hundred cases of feral children recorded so far) and am now wondering what it would take to make an entire population feral. It was mentioned that Vitamin B12 deficiency can cause severe mental problems in humans. Could this method work to cause people to become feral?

EDIT: I'm finding answers to my own questions. Severe Vitamin B12 deficiency could very well be used as a mechanism to cause humans to become feral according to this article.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Jeff M. Hopper:
Could this method work to cause people to become feral?

Jeff,

IIRC, Niven's fairly recent novel Destiny's Road uses potassium salts in such a manner.

The world in question lacks ready sources of potassium salts to be taken up in the food chain and human nervous systems require such salts for both 'hardware' and 'wetware'.

In the book people who go too long without putting 'speckles' on their food become feeble minded.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Jeff M. Hopper:
OK, I've been reading the colony thread and stumbled across something interesting.

If devolution is not possible, then reverting to barbarism is more likely. I've been researching feral humans today (over a hundred cases of feral children recorded so far) and am now wondering what it would take to make an entire population feral. It was mentioned that Vitamin B12 deficiency can cause severe mental problems in humans. Could this method work to cause people to become feral?

EDIT: I'm finding answers to my own questions. Severe Vitamin B12 deficiency could very well be used as a mechanism to cause humans to become feral according to this article.

Such a thing as a global disaster (like a super volcanic eruption) with an isolated world could accomplish much the same thing for your food shortages as a "Long Night". Famine, plant matter dying, starvation, societal breakdown... 70,000 years ago we had such an eruption or so the geologists say. A miniature ice age came about with 5-7 years of lack of sunlight before photosynthesis began working normally..Humanity on earth bottle-necked down to 10% surviving the eco-disaster.

Herbivorous dependent cattle life forms (farmed/ ranched mammals & some fish) would vanish. The simpler forms of life would still flourish,even porsper without those above them on the food chain to eat them hanging around.

all this I got from watching History Channel's proggy "The Last days of earth". apocryphal from earthquakes, tsunamis', super eruptions of volcanoes, and of course, a popular topic these days on these boards, asteroids striking the earth.

The Human race Devolve? No.

Become more predatory, & feral due to dietary deficiencies...(like your B12), sure. Or to quote Dr McCoy--"It's Life Jim, but not as we know it."

 

[Ran Targas]

Why not feral Vargr and Aslan as well? Any sophont species could be able to fall into a stone age existence, losing their culture and civility in the process, particularly when the batteries and bullets run out.

From my experience, feral Vargr and Aslan make great antagonists for scouting missions or safaris. The backstory of MTU easily allows for this but I can see it as being a natural result of an interstellar dark age.

 

[kafka47]

Originally posted by Ran Targas:
Why not feral Vargr and Aslan as well? Any sophont species could be able to fall into a stone age existence, losing their culture and civility in the process, particularly when the batteries and bullets run out.

From my experience, feral Vargr and Aslan make great antagonists for scouting missions or safaris.

This is most interesting, I wonder if this is the backstory upon those Wild Vargr aliens in Gateway to Destiny. And, did not the early version of Mission to Myrill have feral Aslan cave drawings as part of its hook.

Vargr, I could see, them accepted by regular Vargr society, just being low tech punks afterall.

But, I wonder how the Aslan would react? Given that the Japanese are the model for many aspects of the Aslan. What was the treatment of the Ainu & Okinawans over the span of Japanese history? From what I know they were actively shunned and assimilation was the dominant strategy pursued by successive Imperial governments. But, here we have an entire continent/world of these feral Aslan perhaps retaining some Ancient codes that perhaps "modern" Aslan have forgotten. I am thinking of the revisionist Klingon tropes but not exclusively just what usually happens when there is culture clashes from people from within the same culture. Russians in Paris versus the post 1991 crowd, St. Petersburgers versus New Moscow, etc.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

I wonder about the probability of Aslan and Vargr becoming feral. I could see them becoming barbaric, but feral requires neurological damage to occur. Vitamin B12 and potassium salt deficiency in humans is possible because humans are omnivores and the main sources of B12 and potassium salts are red meat or dietary suppliments. Aslan and Vargr being carnivores would be more likely to maintain a supply of red meat in their diets and thus bypass the dietary deficiency.

Not saying its impossible, just less likely then in humans.

NOTE: An important aspect of intelligence is the capacity for communication. Language being the most important tool in this. To be able to disrupt the use of language in a sentient species once it has access to this tool almost requires neurological damage. A collapse of society into barbarism wouldn't necessarily cause a collapse of the population into being feral as long as language is preserved. Or at least that is how I am understanding it as I read more and more on the subject.

If my suppositions are wrong, please correct me.

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

IIRC, Niven's fairly recent novel Destiny's Road uses potassium salts in such a manner.

Have fun,
Bill [/QB]

Yes! I remember reading this book and I hope I still have it in my library. If not, I'll have to buy it again for background ideas.

 

[mbrinkhues]

A "physical devolution" would actually mean the re-appearance of lost features like the Neandertal mans stronger bone/sinew/muscle system or a working appendix. This would either require deliberate tampering (someone mentioned a retro-virus) or a selection process that prefers such traits, turning into an actual evolution(1). So I think we can rule that out mostly

A "social devolution" can happen given the right circumstances. As "social devolution" I would characterise any change that lowers the standard of living, safety and personal rights/freedom from the starting point. So a democratic society turning absolute monarchy would be a "devolution", a police state with low crime rates turning anarchy would also be one, a society going from TTL9 to TTL7 won't(2). But it is only "devolution" if it happens for at least a generation, otherwise it is just a crisis. That means the chaos in Germany 1918-1921 was a crisis, not a devolution

For a devolution to happen, there must be:

+ A reason beyond the control of the populace
+ No outside help available
+ Time

Nivens colony is cut of from earth being a sublight colony so they have the problem (the food chain lacking certain elements) and the lack of outside help. From the description of the book they also have the time since some stuff has turned from "history" to legend. Same for Plateau from "Known Space" where the ship crew set themselfs up as nobility, doling out the rare lands and tools.

"War World" is another example. They have a problem (The Saurons destroyed their tech-base), no help forthcoming (The war wrecked the empire too) and enough time for the Saurons gear to wear out and things to turn into legends and half-understood wonders.


(1) Example: the farther north you get, the higher the lactose tolerance gets as long as there is any milk-producing cattle. Being able to use milk as a vitamin/energy source was a survival trait in those regions as it gave you one more source for necessary food elements. Over a time of 350 years the trait mostly disappears if no longer necessary (i.e a Swede marrying into german folks) but may occasionally "flare up" again (i.e my lactose tolerance is extremly high as are some other traits normaly associated with more "northern" folks

(2) And "worse" is in the eye of the Beholder. The planetary society from Hogans "Voyagers from Yesterday" is a catastrophy for the "bible-belt conservative" society (or at least it's leaders) of the Mayflower II but a very good place to live for 99 percent of all humans including most Mayflower II passengers once they understand it.