How oceanic/maritime is your space?

[BwapTED]

In my upcoming ATU:

• Navy service renamed Space Force (the actual name of a particular service, in-setting, may vary). Standard ranks tweaked/renamed
  
• Marines service renamed Troopers (ditto)
  
  I will retain the LBB#1 merchant ranks. Those fit perfectly what I envision.
  
• no gravitics, so stacked decks for thrust simulated ''gravity" may be a thing
• spinning space stations
  
  
• no/few portholes and windows (except on smaller craft, trans-atmospheric)-- use view screens instead
  
  
• if the bridge is in the forward (away from rocket thruster exhaust) end of the vessel, that's to put more compartments and more shielding between the crew and fusion power plant-- see above about windows on interplanetary ships

• Those 2-D star charts are jump charts, but grossly simplified. Jump space is ''smooshed flat." (Not my idea, but I'm using it. It seems that some other Traveller fans have explained it this way for years. Does anybody know who came up with the notion first?)

---------------------------------------------


Based on what I have read in LBB#2, space travel in the game works a lot more like, well, space travel, than like oceanic travel.
So I really don't need any rules changes. It's really all just swapping out some terminology and maybe tweaking ship deck design.





But that's what I plan for my upcoming ATU.


What about you guys?


Do you use space navies with midshipmen, ensigns, admirals, etc.? Lots of naval traditions? Just a few?

Marines with cutlasses?


Space pirates that look rather like Age of Sail pirates, real or romanticized?



Weather in jump space?


A romantic/retro-tech/rule-of-cool take on solar sail technology for interplanetary travel?

 

[Jason M Durkish]

I use air force (the Star Force) . Terminology and ranks for both the Commonwealth and earlier states the old Federal Interstellar Republic and the old Neo Interstellar Union (the old Empire) . But since a friend created the Collective he uses Navy terminology and ranks for his star force .
But for the Commonwealth's Army/Marine force ( the Space Marines).
Uses Marine terminology and ranks .

 

[BwapTED]

That's a fun mix, Jason.

 

[infojunky]

Ok, having seen the Air Farce in operation as compared to the Navy, I'll stick with the Navy. it is also traditional, in that the NAVY tends to be the service tasked with independent operations.....

I have a bunch of notes on replacing Marines with Naval Infantry a'la Russian/Soviet style. And also I have considered adopting their rank structure.

Mostly I have always considered a unified rank structure with traditions adopted along fitting lines rather than by branch.

 

[rancke]

I have an (Imperial) space navy rank structure similar to Age of Sail Britain, with warrant officers (called courtesy officers) "in between" enlisted men and commisioned officers (<specialist>'s mate, equal to (O2) but junior to all sublieutenants, <specialist>, equal to (O3) but junior to all lieutenants, and Chief <specialist>, equal to (O4) but junior to all lt. commanders. For example, Astrogator's Mate, Astrogator, and Chief Astrogator.

I also have O8, O9, and O10 ranks be Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, and Admiral, pushing Fleet Admiral (renamed Force Admiral), Sector Admiral, and Grand Admiral up to O11-O13.


Hans

 

[Jason M Durkish]

That's a fun mix, Jason.

You are welcome feel free to use any of my ideas .

 

[Jason M Durkish]

Ok, having seen the Air Farce in operation as compared to the Navy, I'll stick with the Navy. it is also traditional, in that the NAVY tends to be the service tasked with independent operations.....

I have a bunch of notes on replacing Marines with Naval Infantry a'la Russian/Soviet style. And also I have considered adopting their rank structure.

Mostly I have always considered a unified rank structure with traditions adopted along fitting lines rather than by branch.

The reason I use Air Force terminology and ranks .
Because the Air Force has a connection to space travel .
The Navy does not have .

 

[Reban]

IMTU The Imperial Stellar Navy has a culture that draws on both the Age of Sail and late Victorian pre-dreadnought era.

This is mostly because both historic eras give players a touchstone to understand what its like to be on a "ship" separated from direct command and control by vast distances.

No weather in jumpspace. But then again no jumpspace either but an FTL drive that covers parsecs per day to increase the size of my "known space" to part of a galactic arm.

Rank structure is naval, but specializations are more streamlined along skills to give Executive, Engineering and Technical Branches.

My Navy is organized into Fleets. A named Fleet for each Sector and several Grand Fleets that can be moved around to trouble spots.

I go with a Big Ship universe, so crews are large and for the most part anonymous to the PCs. Gravity generation and manipulation is a major technology IMTU so that means deck orientations of any or multiple kinds. Few portholes if any for ships and bridges that a buried deep inside. I'd like to do reaction drives but I'm using T5 so at the moment I'm using M-Drives but that could change in the future.

My stellar Navy also has a "Fleet Fighter Arm" which is based on the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm in WW2 and is much more "Airforce" in character compared to the rest of the Navy. Organized by squadrons with smallcraft up to 100dtons and small junior officer led crews.

Likewise my Imperial Marine Corps is divided between "Fleet" tasks and "Assault" tasks. Fleet tasks covers the roles of sub company sized units based aboard ships filling the traditional roles of marines, guarding the officers, forming boarding parties and leading shore or "planetside" landing parties as well as dock and naval base garrison duties. The Assault element is organized as Aerospace/Ground Task Forces based aboard Independent assault Squadrons.

 

[aramis]

In my ATU...
The Navy and the Exploration Corpsuses Naval Ranks.
The Marines, Starport Security, and Space Patrol use Ground Ranks.
The Merchants use Merchant Ranks (4th to 1st, Captain)
The Postal & Census Service uses seniority and position only.

I have them breaking ranks into 3 major groups:
Enlisted (E1-E6)
Officer (O1 to O7)
Flag (F1-F4)
O7 is Brigadier for ground, and Fleet Captain for Naval. Merchants don't have them.
The Flag titles differ...

Flag Grade	Insignia	Naval	Ground	Merchant	Civil Service
F4	12-point star and wide stripe	Grand Admiral	Grand Marshal	Director	—
F3	8-point star and wide stripe	Fleet Admiral	Marshal	Deputy Director	Director
F2	4-point star and wide stripe	Admiral	General	Department Director	Deputy Director
F1	Ball & wide stripe	Commodore	Lt. General	Commodore	Department Director

There is no "Up Or Out" (Reenlistment is a separate roll from advancement)
Likewise, Reenlistment is not quite as hard as stock, but it does get harder with time served, as retention officers tend to look down on lifers. ((base enlistment + terms)/2). If one got commissioned or Flagged, reenlistment is automatic if desired. If one got demoted, reenlistment takes a DM-3.

"Flagging" - any O5 or higher can obtain flag rank... make your advancement by 4, and you may opt for F1 instead of next grade..

Oh, and there's a non-rank that wears O7 insignia in odd color... "Kamaji Colonel" (Properly, "Auxiliary Colonel of the Kamaji Defense Forces"...) who may or may not actually be military officers. It's the only concordat-wide noble title, and counts as a knighthood. Yes, they do wear white uniforms... and purple stripes on silver boards or collar bars. And it's actually issued by the Kamaji government, usually on behalf of the council. Not always.

Oh, and just to confuse things worse, the council members wear F3 and F4 insignia... and all ambassadors from member worlds may wear F2, while all Consuls wear F1 insignia - in distinctive coloring. Each Consulate or Embassy has secretaries, and may have a minister or more. And Consuls and up can actually cut orders to Flag Officers except Grand Admirals. With only one exception, member governments only appoint experienced Ambassadors to the council. (That exception appoints nobles.) And council members have direct personal authority as if F5's... Which can make for unpleasant "Hey, you, do X"...

Note that the Commodores and higher in the merchants are purely administrative; to get your ticket as a merchant spacer, you are actually required to apply to the merchant service for it. The subsidized trade fleet is all uniformed. Officer Ranks are O1-O5, and are 4th Officer, 3rd Officer, 2nd Officer, 1st Officer, and Captain. Unsubsidized merchants may submit themselves to Uniformed Merchant Service Duty, but must then hold proper qualifications... The Merchant Service also has administrative staff of lower ranks, but note that no Merchant Commodore is actually a working merchant anymore.

And the same insignia are used (occasionally) for various ranks by member worlds.

 

[whulorigan]

Space-Forces Officer Ranks

In my upcoming ATU:

• Navy service renamed Space Force (the actual name of a particular service, in-setting, may vary). Standard ranks tweaked/renamed
• Marines service renamed Troopers (ditto)

Do you use space navies with midshipmen, ensigns, admirals, etc.? Lots of naval traditions? Just a few?

The reason I use Air Force terminology and ranks .
Because the Air Force has a connection to space travel .
The Navy does not have .

It is also traditional, in that the NAVY tends to be the service tasked with independent operations.....

I have a bunch of notes on replacing Marines with Naval Infantry a'la Russian/Soviet style. And also I have considered adopting their rank structure.

Mostly I have always considered a unified rank structure with traditions adopted along fitting lines rather than by branch.

Several options to consider:

1) You could use an officer rank structure similar to some non-British/American hierarchies, (roughly, in general terms):

- Cadet/Midshipman

- 3rd Lieutenant
- 2nd Lieutenant
- 1st Lieutenant

- Captain (3rd Rank ^* ) OR Captain-Lieutenant
- Captain (2nd Rank ^** )
- Captain (1st Rank ^*** ) OR Fleet Captain

- (Various Flag Ranks)

^* - Historically "Corvette-Captain"
^** - Historically "Frigate-Captain"
^*** - Historically "Captain-of-the-Sea (Space)"
​

2) You could use a unified officer rank system for an "Aerospace/Marine Force" similar to the Battlestar Galactica rank system:

- Cadet/Midshipman

- Ensign
- Lieutenant (jg)
- Lieutenant
- Captain
- Major^* OR Lieutenant-Colonel (perhaps one is a staff-rank and the other is a command-rank)
- Colonel
- Commander

- (Various Flag Ranks)

^* - Or perhaps "Major" is simply a courtesy title for a commander of a marine contingent aboard ship
​

3) Remember that in the British Commonwealth countries, their Air Forces typically have an officer rank structure that was custom designed for the Service. You could roughly base an officer rank structure on that system:

- Cadet

- Pilot Officer
- Flying Officer
- Flight Lieutenant (or Flight Leader)
- Squadron Leader
- Wing Commander (or Wing Leader)
- Group Captain (or Group Leader)

- (Space) Commodore
- (Space) Vice-Marshal
- (Space) Marshal
- (Space) Chief Marshal

4) Also, for Merchant Ranks, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Officer are often referred to as the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Lieutenant, respectively:

- Cadet/Midshipman

- 4th Officer/Mate (3rd Lieutenant)
- 3rd Officer/Mate (2nd Lieutenant)
- 2nd Officer/Mate (1st Lieutenant)
- 1st Officer/Mate (Master's Mate/Chief Mate)

- Captain (Ship Master)

- Commodore (Administrative)

Remember that the Army/Marine ranks were designed to reflect the organizational command structure of formations of men on a battlefield (Captain [Leader of a Company of Men], and his Lieutenant; Colonel as the commander of a Colonnade (Regiment), and his Lt. Colonel, Brigadier (General) as commander of a Brigade, etc.).

The Navy ranks are designed to reflect the command structure of a vessel with a crew (the "Captain" or "Commander" of the ship (in various grades of precedence), and their respective Lieutenants), Warrant Officers as leading technical specialists and Petty Officers to assist them as technicians/specialists "Mates", etc.

 

[BwapTED]

I'm still working out the roles of computers and robots, but that may affect crew numbers, especially in the case of larger vessels.

 

[Jason M Durkish]

The Commonwealth does not have any merchant service..
Merchants ether work for Mega interstellar Corporation.
Or are independent owner operators . Commonwealth merchants will also trade with Andromedaite merchants and settlements .

In the Collective has no merchants the resource disruption department .Determines who gets what goods and in what quantity and the Cthuhi are similar to the Collective .

And the Andromedaites have small to medium merchant gilds and owner operators that also trade with Commonwealth merchants and settlements .

 

[infojunky]

Because the Air Force has a connection to space travel .
The Navy does not have .

Hum, I seem to recall a bunch of Naval and Marine Aviators who went on to become Astronauts. And a whole bunch of Navy ships picking said astronauts up after their flights.

 

[Jason M Durkish]

The Commonwealth does not have any merchant service..
Merchants ether work for Mega interstellar Corporation.
Or are independent owner operators . Commonwealth merchants will also trade with Andromedaite merchants and settlements .

In the Collective has no merchants the resource disruption department .Determines who gets what goods and in what quantity and the Cthuhi are similar to the Collective .

And the Andromedaites have small to medium merchant gilds and owner operators that also trade with Commonwealth merchants and settlements .

Hum, I seem to recall a bunch of Naval and Marine Aviators who went on to become Astronauts. And a whole bunch of Navy ships picking said astronauts up after their flights.

You are right I was on a cellphone before work it seems that more Air Force than navy are involved in the space program .

 

[aramis]

Hum, I seem to recall a bunch of Naval and Marine Aviators who went on to become Astronauts. And a whole bunch of Navy ships picking said astronauts up after their flights.

The US Navy still has its own space program, according to some sources; it publicly still has its own air arm, and its own missile program.

(In no small irony, the US Army has more watercraft than the US Navy, and last I checked, the USN had more total aircraft than the USAF.)

 

[BwapTED]

The US Navy still has its own space program, according to some sources; it publicly still has its own air arm, and its own missile program.

(In no small irony, the US Army has more watercraft than the US Navy, and last I checked, the USN had more total aircraft than the USAF.)

Brown water Army, FTW



But, sure, I have no problem with the notion of a space navy.

That is, I think it's perfectly plausible (assuming a major human presence in space ever does come to pass-- but I take that as a given thing in a game about dudes zooming around SPEHHHHSS ) to say that some future state might call its space-based forces a ''navy'' and use naval ranks. If nothing else, the influence of so many works of science fiction that feature ''space navies'' might come to bear.


I think one way to reinforce ''space is not an ocean'' is to use something besides naval ranks and call the (default/standard) space forces something besides ''The Navy.''
It's an aesthetic choice for this ATU, that's all.

 

[aramis]

Brown water Army, FTW



But, sure, I have no problem with the notion of a space navy.

That is, I think it's perfectly plausible (assuming a major human presence in space ever does come to pass-- but I take that as a given thing in a game about dudes zooming around SPEHHHHSS ) to say that some future state might call its space-based forces a ''navy'' and use naval ranks. If nothing else, the influence of so many works of science fiction that feature ''space navies'' might come to bear.


I think one way to reinforce ''space is not an ocean'' is to use something besides naval ranks and call the (default/standard) space forces something besides ''The Navy.''
It's an aesthetic choice for this ATU, that's all.

For many purposes, space may as well be an ocean... without the tin can, it's not a survivable environment, the distances are too far for travel without a ship, and all the most scientifically interesting places need a totally enclosed habitat. Plus, underway, often, all you see is a vast expanse, and the earliest expeditions never left sight of land.

 

[BwapTED]

For many purposes, space may as well be an ocean... without the tin can, it's not a survivable environment, the distances are too far for travel without a ship, and all the most scientifically interesting places need a totally enclosed habitat. Plus, underway, often, all you see is a vast expanse, and the earliest expeditions never left sight of land.

For some purposes, yes.

In other ways, no, not at all.



http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAnOcean

There's also the other trope:


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAir

 

[Golan2072]

An old ATU of mine (called "Shattered Federation") had the Humans develop their space forces out of their airforces and aerospace industry. So ships were small and came in large numbers (rather than have a few big ships), had their engines in their "back wall" or along the hull as in aircraft, and space military was a Star Force (and instead of Marines, they had Starbourne Infantry). Celirans - theropod-like aliens - used to have big ships with their engines under the "floor" and used Naval terminology.

In my current Visions of Empire setting, there is a strong Naval tradition for space forces, as this fits relatively large ships with large and specialized crews doing independent operations on the long term. The United Terran Republic had a Navy, and Naval Infantry, which were part of the Navy (instead of Marines; in chargen they use all marine tables except for rank tables, for which they use the Naval ones), as well as Drop Troops (belonging to the Terran Guard - top echelon of the Army - but deployed from space for planetary assaults). The Terran Empire abolished the Terran Guard (and the Draft and Militia) and combined the Drop Troops and Naval Infantry to create Imperial Marines - the Emperor's spacebourne, combined-arms mailed fist. The New Terran Republic replaced the old, iconic Guard with new Flying Columns, combined-arms, high-mobility light-infantry units with integral, though light, artillery, air and armoured support.

In both settings, no "space weather" in Jumpspace, and space pirates look more like contemporary pirates and/or hijackers rather than age of sail pirates.

 

[Enoki]

In terms of general terminology I use a lot of naval terms and slang in describing ships and ship operations.

Ships have decks, bulkheads, partitions (walls that aren't structural), overheads.
There are hatches not doors.
The bathrooms are heads not "freshers."
Port, starboard, fore and, aft are used.
You have ladders not stairs.
The non-space fairing are called "Sand Crabs" by the space fairing.
You "Get underway" and "Stand out" from (star) port.
The starship has a helm on the bridge.
The ship for combat goes to "Quarters" or "General Quarters."
One "Sets details" for things like docking at the starport, getting underway, FTL jump, or transferring cargo and the like.
The crew stands watches.
You have staterooms, cabins, a galley.

That sort of thing. I like it to sound nautical when dealing with ship operations. The more it sounds almost like the days of sailing ships the better.