how loud
- Thread starter wa11eye
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far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I knew I'd seen it somewhere. Not in T20 but I wasn't sure just where. What you want is in MT Player's Manual (pg.76) under the Signature column. Or give me a little time and I'll type up a short table.
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Mostly MT, a little my TU...
A weapon's firing signature is composed of visual and audible components. Commonly called flash and bang. These are grossly defined as Low, Moderate, and High.
Note the scale:
Low = Both flash and bang are difficult to notice.
Moderate = Flash is difficult to ignore in dark and noticeable in daylight. Bang is noticeable in open terrain and medium range (T20 increments 6-10) and closer, or close terrain and short range (T20 increments 1-5).
High = Both flash and bang are difficult to ignore under most conditions.
Gauss weapons: Low flash and low bang.
Accelerator weapons: High flash and low bang. It's a mini rocket propelled round. Possible* high tech versions using mini grav thrusters would have low flash. Includes Snub pistols.
* depending on your view of a minimum size for thrusters
Laser weapons: Moderate flash and low bang for early tech versions (visible light - TL12-). Low flash and low bang for late tech versions (x-ray - TL13+).
Light Assault Gun: Moderate flash and moderate bang. Fires large bore low velocity rounds.
Advanced Combat Rifle: Moderate flash and moderate bang due to incorporated flash and noise suppression.
High Energy Weapons: High flash and high bang.
Assault Rifle: High flash and high bang. May be reduced to moderate flash and moderate bang with the addition of flash suppressor and noise suppressor.
Autopistol: Moderate flash and moderate bang. May be reduced to low flash and low bang with addition of integrated suppressor (commonly called a silencer).
Shotgun: High flash and high bang.
A weapon's firing signature is composed of visual and audible components. Commonly called flash and bang. These are grossly defined as Low, Moderate, and High.
Note the scale:
Low = Both flash and bang are difficult to notice.
Moderate = Flash is difficult to ignore in dark and noticeable in daylight. Bang is noticeable in open terrain and medium range (T20 increments 6-10) and closer, or close terrain and short range (T20 increments 1-5).
High = Both flash and bang are difficult to ignore under most conditions.
Gauss weapons: Low flash and low bang.
Accelerator weapons: High flash and low bang. It's a mini rocket propelled round. Possible* high tech versions using mini grav thrusters would have low flash. Includes Snub pistols.
* depending on your view of a minimum size for thrusters
Laser weapons: Moderate flash and low bang for early tech versions (visible light - TL12-). Low flash and low bang for late tech versions (x-ray - TL13+).
Light Assault Gun: Moderate flash and moderate bang. Fires large bore low velocity rounds.
Advanced Combat Rifle: Moderate flash and moderate bang due to incorporated flash and noise suppression.
High Energy Weapons: High flash and high bang.
Assault Rifle: High flash and high bang. May be reduced to moderate flash and moderate bang with the addition of flash suppressor and noise suppressor.
Autopistol: Moderate flash and moderate bang. May be reduced to low flash and low bang with addition of integrated suppressor (commonly called a silencer).
Shotgun: High flash and high bang.
I'm sure they are addressed somewhere in canon. But, I'll leave that to the canon scholars.
What works for me IMTU:
ACR & LAG: They're firearms, just as today's. As loud as any other smallarm.
LAG louder, since it's basically an Anti-Tank Gun.
Accelerator Rifle: Discharges it's round at a low velocity (to reduce recoil), then the round 'speeds' up.
Well, as far as initial muzzle velocity goes, that's pretty much the science behind some "silencers", which reduce muzzle velocity to sub-sonic speeds, thereby reducing the crack of the sonic boom report.
So....initially, I would say they are as loud as a 'silenced' firearm. Then, while the round propellant (mini-rocket) ramps up the speed, I would attach a sound to that. Kind of a quick, high pitches 'whip'. Maybe akin to what 4 or 8-ounce firework rockets sound like.
Laser Weapons: I use slighly different sound levels, depending on whether they are of the 'power source' or 'CLC' variety. It could be argued that they are virtually silent, but my preference is that they make some sound, albeit not near as loud as a firearm.
My personal SXF reference sound? Movie Terminator: Nifty little sound in the future-flashback(forward?) that the Hunter-Killer aircraft spat out. "bzztt!"
DB level similar to a silenced firearm; increasing as the MW/Power of the Laser increases.
Gauss Weapons: While there is no chemical reaction/propellant to add to the sound, I feel the ultrasonic speed of the projectile is still going to give you a report as it exits the muzzle. IMTU, gauss weapons give a report similar in db to a .22 CAL pistol round. More than a suppressed round, but pretty close to a typical fire-cracker. As far as what it sounds like, the Mechassault game on Xbox has pretty kewl sound for gauss weapons (and several others) that my group uses as a common reference.
NOTE: Keep in mind that, for the weapons that CAN fire in airless environments, they WOULD effectively be silent, since there is no atmospheric medium for the sound to travel though.
Hope that helps. I just went with what I thought made common sense.
What works for me IMTU:
ACR & LAG: They're firearms, just as today's. As loud as any other smallarm.
LAG louder, since it's basically an Anti-Tank Gun.
Accelerator Rifle: Discharges it's round at a low velocity (to reduce recoil), then the round 'speeds' up.
Well, as far as initial muzzle velocity goes, that's pretty much the science behind some "silencers", which reduce muzzle velocity to sub-sonic speeds, thereby reducing the crack of the sonic boom report.
So....initially, I would say they are as loud as a 'silenced' firearm. Then, while the round propellant (mini-rocket) ramps up the speed, I would attach a sound to that. Kind of a quick, high pitches 'whip'. Maybe akin to what 4 or 8-ounce firework rockets sound like.
Laser Weapons: I use slighly different sound levels, depending on whether they are of the 'power source' or 'CLC' variety. It could be argued that they are virtually silent, but my preference is that they make some sound, albeit not near as loud as a firearm.
My personal SXF reference sound? Movie Terminator: Nifty little sound in the future-flashback(forward?) that the Hunter-Killer aircraft spat out. "bzztt!"
DB level similar to a silenced firearm; increasing as the MW/Power of the Laser increases.
Gauss Weapons: While there is no chemical reaction/propellant to add to the sound, I feel the ultrasonic speed of the projectile is still going to give you a report as it exits the muzzle. IMTU, gauss weapons give a report similar in db to a .22 CAL pistol round. More than a suppressed round, but pretty close to a typical fire-cracker. As far as what it sounds like, the Mechassault game on Xbox has pretty kewl sound for gauss weapons (and several others) that my group uses as a common reference.
NOTE: Keep in mind that, for the weapons that CAN fire in airless environments, they WOULD effectively be silent, since there is no atmospheric medium for the sound to travel though.
Hope that helps. I just went with what I thought made common sense.
MichaelL65
SOC-12
I've not worked with high-power lasers, but I would imagine some sort of electromagnetic hum - something like a fraction of a second, then a pop. Perhaps a high-pitched whine like a camera's flash unit makes while in standby (the pop like they make too when they go off).
I wouldn't think that even a laser powerful enough for a weapon would make much noise as it passes through air. It's just light - light is silent. it's the absorbtion of the light (visible or IR) that does the damage - air would absorb practically nothing.
Since nothing but protons actually leave the weapon, it would be a very quiet shot. A sniper could pick off people in a crowd and have few notice - and no one know where the shot came from.
Gauss weapons would also be rather quiet, since there is no chemical explosion. But the projectile could still cause a sonic boom (well, a loud pop anyway).
That's my opinion anyway.
I wouldn't think that even a laser powerful enough for a weapon would make much noise as it passes through air. It's just light - light is silent. it's the absorbtion of the light (visible or IR) that does the damage - air would absorb practically nothing.
Since nothing but protons actually leave the weapon, it would be a very quiet shot. A sniper could pick off people in a crowd and have few notice - and no one know where the shot came from.
Gauss weapons would also be rather quiet, since there is no chemical explosion. But the projectile could still cause a sonic boom (well, a loud pop anyway).
That's my opinion anyway.
justacaveman
SOC-12
A normal atmosphere has a lot of suspended dust particles etc. A laser powerful enough to use as a weapon would probably vaporize such particles, scattering light (both visible and infrared) along the path of the beam. It probably wouldn't be too visible in bright light, but at least moderately visible in conditions of darkness.
With thermal imaging, it would point back at the firer like a brilliant line.
Also if you have laser sensors mounted on a hi-tech vehicle, you could program the fire control system to shoot at non-friendly lasers (coded pulses on laser range finders/designators).
With thermal imaging, it would point back at the firer like a brilliant line.
Also if you have laser sensors mounted on a hi-tech vehicle, you could program the fire control system to shoot at non-friendly lasers (coded pulses on laser range finders/designators).
Air may not absorb many photons, but a weapons grade laser has lots and lots of them.
Do a google search on Absrobtion Spectra. The basic issue is that each kind of atom and molecule (oxygen, water, nitrogen, carbon dioxide) absorbs (and re-emits) different wavelengths of light (i.e. different energies of photons). The trick is to make sure your laser is tuned so that it matches none of these wavelenghts. If it does, the beam gets (partly) absorbed, the atoms get hightly excited (i.e. Ionized) and you get a light show and thunderclap.
And as Lord Rhys noted, your other problem is dust (dust motes, microbes, smoke particles, blown sand, etc). Which causes the same problem, but not much tuning of the laser gets around that.
This is where the concept of "sand" for the Traveller starships comes from. As well as the laser aerosol. Spray a lot of very fine particles between you and the laser should stop it, or at least slow it down.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
There are three different sounds a weapon makes when it fires. The first is the quietest, that is the weapon itself. The mechanical click of the hammer falling the bolt sliding etc. Generally not audible above 10 meters and not important on a non-silenced firearm however on other weapons that don't have the other sounds then this could actual be significant.
The Second is the gas escaping from the front of the barrel. This is usually a loud bang and the sound that silencers stop by trapping the gas as it leaves the barrel. On a weapon with no chemical propolusion, ie Gauss Rifle, Laser, this sound wouldn't exist. BTW by the nature of a Relvolver you can't silence the gas escaping because it escapes around the cylinder. So putting a silencer on a relvolver is useless.
The Third is the Supersonic Crack as the projectile passes. (You won't hear it before the round impacts but you will hear it if you survive or aren't the target. This is the sound that is impossible to silence. the only solution is to slow the projectile down to less than the speed of sound. (And in case of projectiles generally reduce their range and accuracy.) The best choice to reduce this noise is to pick a round that is already subsonic then work on the other two sources. (In the real world the .22 and .45 are both subsonic and accurate at reasonable ranges so are the easiest to silence.) A Snub Pistol could be silenced. the Silent version of 9mm SMGs so fondly used in Hollywood (The MP5SD is one example) generally use a low power 9mm bullet so it isn't supersonic. The latest version of the MP5SD is supposed to use standard ammo but the weapon extracts gas early so the bullet doesn't reach supersonic speeds. AFAIK)
If you want to hear the difference and have access to a .22 rifle that can handle .22 magnum ammunition then fire both and listen to the difference. The .22Mag is Supersonic.
Now, if your powerpack doesn't hum, if the weapon doesn't have a built in noise to let you know it is being discharged, (A really good safety feature.) Then a Laser should be virtually silent. It should heat the air around the path of the laser but if the burst is of short duration it shouldn't be significant. Gauss weapons, because of the speed of the projectile can't be silent. One would think the FGMP and PGMP would make lots of noise at the point of impact but unless the plasma is travelling at supersonic speeds I don't think it would make much noise at the firing end. (Though it would be a hell of a light show.)
Note that all weapons are silent in a Vaccuum. In space noone can hearyou scream!
Most weapons would make noise when fired, primarily for three reasons, law enforcement wouldn't want silent weapons on the market.It is much safer to actually have the weapon make noise when fired so you know it went off. And you might also want the enemy to know they are being shot at, it affects their morale. And you can't put someone's head down with suppresive fire if they don't know they are being shot at.
Mortars are vitrually silent but in most cases whistles are attached to the fins so they make noise on the way in. Much more effective to put peoples' heads down, to make them all dive for cover and cause havoc out of line with the actual damage done. In WWII they did the same thing with Dive Bombers, especially Stukas. It is scary to get shot at. To hear bullets wizzing by, to hear incomming rounds. You can drop gas rounds from a Mortar on someone and they wouldn't know it until they were dead. What good is that? You want them to panic. To stop and take notice and in most cases to stop trying to kill you while they look to their own lives. An Assasin is a different story then you can modify the weapon to eliminate the noise.
Just my two cents.
The Second is the gas escaping from the front of the barrel. This is usually a loud bang and the sound that silencers stop by trapping the gas as it leaves the barrel. On a weapon with no chemical propolusion, ie Gauss Rifle, Laser, this sound wouldn't exist. BTW by the nature of a Relvolver you can't silence the gas escaping because it escapes around the cylinder. So putting a silencer on a relvolver is useless.
The Third is the Supersonic Crack as the projectile passes. (You won't hear it before the round impacts but you will hear it if you survive or aren't the target. This is the sound that is impossible to silence. the only solution is to slow the projectile down to less than the speed of sound. (And in case of projectiles generally reduce their range and accuracy.) The best choice to reduce this noise is to pick a round that is already subsonic then work on the other two sources. (In the real world the .22 and .45 are both subsonic and accurate at reasonable ranges so are the easiest to silence.) A Snub Pistol could be silenced. the Silent version of 9mm SMGs so fondly used in Hollywood (The MP5SD is one example) generally use a low power 9mm bullet so it isn't supersonic. The latest version of the MP5SD is supposed to use standard ammo but the weapon extracts gas early so the bullet doesn't reach supersonic speeds. AFAIK)
If you want to hear the difference and have access to a .22 rifle that can handle .22 magnum ammunition then fire both and listen to the difference. The .22Mag is Supersonic.
Now, if your powerpack doesn't hum, if the weapon doesn't have a built in noise to let you know it is being discharged, (A really good safety feature.) Then a Laser should be virtually silent. It should heat the air around the path of the laser but if the burst is of short duration it shouldn't be significant. Gauss weapons, because of the speed of the projectile can't be silent. One would think the FGMP and PGMP would make lots of noise at the point of impact but unless the plasma is travelling at supersonic speeds I don't think it would make much noise at the firing end. (Though it would be a hell of a light show.)
Note that all weapons are silent in a Vaccuum. In space noone can hearyou scream!
Most weapons would make noise when fired, primarily for three reasons, law enforcement wouldn't want silent weapons on the market.It is much safer to actually have the weapon make noise when fired so you know it went off. And you might also want the enemy to know they are being shot at, it affects their morale. And you can't put someone's head down with suppresive fire if they don't know they are being shot at.
Mortars are vitrually silent but in most cases whistles are attached to the fins so they make noise on the way in. Much more effective to put peoples' heads down, to make them all dive for cover and cause havoc out of line with the actual damage done. In WWII they did the same thing with Dive Bombers, especially Stukas. It is scary to get shot at. To hear bullets wizzing by, to hear incomming rounds. You can drop gas rounds from a Mortar on someone and they wouldn't know it until they were dead. What good is that? You want them to panic. To stop and take notice and in most cases to stop trying to kill you while they look to their own lives. An Assasin is a different story then you can modify the weapon to eliminate the noise.
Just my two cents.
justindurkan
SOC-6
Theory:
High powered lasers must have a thunderous report.
Explanation:
To be an effective weapon against most targets the laser must have a wavelength that will be absorbed by must matter. Hence, the path of the laser through any atmostphere must produce huge heat along its beam (just like lightning). The resulting expansion of the gas would produce a supersonic shockwave leaving the beam in a radial direction (just like thunder). The pulsed laser would limit this by reducing the pulse length but to do any damage all lasers must be loud.
-----------------------------
Not being a laser scientist the above theory is bound to be shaky but I'd welcome comments.
/Justin Durkan
High powered lasers must have a thunderous report.
Explanation:
To be an effective weapon against most targets the laser must have a wavelength that will be absorbed by must matter. Hence, the path of the laser through any atmostphere must produce huge heat along its beam (just like lightning). The resulting expansion of the gas would produce a supersonic shockwave leaving the beam in a radial direction (just like thunder). The pulsed laser would limit this by reducing the pulse length but to do any damage all lasers must be loud.
-----------------------------
Not being a laser scientist the above theory is bound to be shaky but I'd welcome comments.
/Justin Durkan
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
I am not so sure about this. From what I understand Saber is silent. (Saber is the name for the vehicle mounted US Army Battlefield Laser.) Granted it isn't designed to kill people and cut steel but it is powerful enough to blind people. (At least by the reports I have read on the subject.) You are dealing with very short bursts when dealing with a laser weapon. SO how much things are heated on the way to the target is dependent on the length of the burst. The Russian Blinding Laser that was used to dazzel pilots in the late 80's didn't make noise either, at least by any reports that I was able to read.
