How Hard To Hide A Shipyard?

[ThunderChilde]

So, we here on Murtog's world are fed up with the Arglebargle's throwing thier weight around and crimping our legal trade off world. The Grand Poohbah gonna get his comeuppance. Arranging to purchase the Type P plans and neccesary tooling all legal like, should be straight forward. It makes a good armed merchant/patrol vessel.

On a more sly basis, build 800 ton SDB's if your allowed to, then build a Jump Shuttle Pack so you can ferry them around, ala the old 400 ton Dragoon and its jump shuttle.

Or eyes wide, a 10,000 ton bulk modular freighter that miraculously can carry many SDB's in it's wonderfully flexible cargo clamp and management systems.

Why mearly use Neptune? The ort cloud had many useful bodies in it. Unless the scouts have already set up shop out there for long term passive data collection on system movements, you can't really beat it for really being in an obscure place.

 

[Peter Schutze]

since doing this kind of thing fairly successfully is going to be a once-off in any campaign where there is a fairly stable empire, go all out

* there is a lone jupiter size system in an adjacent hex that is unknown to the imperium .... depending on the traveller version it might make sense to have ships legitimately jump there then jump again as a 2x j1 shortcut somewhere good

* a small faction within the intelligence/ special ops community of the government has been slowly colonising one of the moons there, starting in those couple of months/years between imperial contact and protectorate status being proclaimed

* this faction has control over one or two of (a dozen ?) small ships Arglebargle uses for goverment work and they are the only ships that know how to get there but even so most deliveries are sent on ballistic courses rather than jumping to the GG

* of course the whole point of the colony is to serve as a bolthole and shipyard so the residents are fanatical and colonising it is a one-way trip for life. very few of the locals actually know where they are because almost everyone not born there arrived as cargo in cold sleep

keeping it a smallish, isolated long term conspiraccy should go a long way towards maintaining secrecy. with only the crew of 2 small ships which can probably justify losing the occassional cargo collected from various systems except the colonists helps too

the fanatical indoctrination of most of the colonists and the hostile/vaccuum almost shiplike environment of the colony itself helps explain where the skilled techs etc come from.

* as well as building a few regular smallish warships each year that go straight into mothball, the battleline of the fleet will be several small moonlets that also act as the jump tenders. nothing else jump capable is built there

 

[Garyius2003]

I think you have the same issues as the making of the atom bomb by the Americans, with the added issue that you are going to have space based sensor data.

You can use the outer system method, but then you have big problems ferrying materials and sub assemblies out to the ship yard. A way partly around that is to have a for profit project near but not too near, to justify the traffic.

If you are talking ships small enough to land (and from cannon 5k ships at least can land without it being an issue) then things are much easier. Underground caverns or undersea.

Your second issue is making parts. Most modern sci fi gets around that with magic master equipment factories. Plug in power and raw material, out comes whatever you want including parts for another factory. If you can buy one or three of those, things get much easier.

Otherwise, you are buying parts and machine tools though cutouts and factors, for way over FMV, and running some sort of smuggling line. You are also going to get caught at some point.

Your building team is another issue. Where are they coming from, where are they going to live, how are they going to be living so that they are apart from your population but still motivated to work hard.

Then your ship crews. Where are you going to get trainers. Officers and chiefs take years to grow and they need real life experience to teach them to lead and manage. How many crew are you going to train, and how do you keep them quiet.

 

[Hyphen]

Have you had a look at darkstarr's page, High Tortuga:
http://darkhstarr.com/

He has a pirate base built into the crater of an old volcano. Look up "TORTUGA: A PIRATE
HIDEAWAY" and the old Mt Erebus scout base.

Cool ideas, cool-looking campaign.

 

[kafka47]

A shipyard is a relatively easy thing to hide...how many factories in China are producing bootlegged DVDs. Hundreds. How many reach the Internet. Tens. How many of you buy them. Then the number drops down to handful or none.

So, it is with a shipyard...the best place to hide it, is out in the open. A local subsidiary of a shipbuilding Megacorp applies for a license from the parent company to buy parts from the parent company to do a contract for neighboring system. License is approved. In the neighbouring system, it is in fact, a shell company operating within a series of Shell companies that is front operation for a pirate operation and some time Letter of Marquee (aka privateer) involved in Trade War one or two Sectors over.

Now, the Imperial Navy turns investigation over to MoJ who then asks the Ministry of Commerce to investigate the shell companies but as investigators get closer. Companies fold and relocate to another part of the world. All the while, the subsidiary continues to crank out starships and repairs on existing ships for a war going on over a Sector away.

All that I have described is perfectly legal in the Imperium and Solomani Confederation. Now, add in that planets are allowed to make up their own rules/laws and/or involvement of one or more Intelligence Agencies and/or corruption. It is easy how to hide a shipyard in plain sight. It is called the Free Market.

 

[McPerth]

A shipyard is a relatively easy thing to hide...how many factories in China are producing bootlegged DVDs. Hundreds. How many reach the Internet. Tens. How many of you buy them. Then the number drops down to handful or none.

So, it is with a shipyard...the best place to hide it, is out in the open. A local subsidiary of a shipbuilding Megacorp applies for a license from the parent company to buy parts from the parent company to do a contract for neighboring system. License is approved. In the neighbouring system, it is in fact, a shell company operating within a series of Shell companies that is front operation for a pirate operation and some time Letter of Marquee (aka privateer) involved in Trade War one or two Sectors over.

Now, the Imperial Navy turns investigation over to MoJ who then asks the Ministry of Commerce to investigate the shell companies but as investigators get closer. Companies fold and relocate to another part of the world. All the while, the subsidiary continues to crank out starships and repairs on existing ships for a war going on over a Sector away.

All that I have described is perfectly legal in the Imperium and Solomani Confederation. Now, add in that planets are allowed to make up their own rules/laws and/or involvement of one or more Intelligence Agencies and/or corruption. It is easy how to hide a shipyard in plain sight. It is called the Free Market.

Sure that's perfectly legal in 3I and Solomani confederation...in OTU.

But that's YTU theradm and in the one Jawillroy describes it can be not so legal...

As he describes it, I keep in saying the greatest problem would be the control the Imperium would surely have over shipbuilding materials (lantanum ,etc).

I guess it would be as strict as they are for radioactive materials in today's real life.

 

[Jame]

If you really want to hide a yard just put in in the outer system or near the sun.

 

[rancke]

If you really want to hide a yard just put in in the outer system or near the sun.

The real problem is to hide the economic footprints.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

The real problem is to hide the economic footprints.


Hans

They can get tips from the NRO...

 

[kafka47]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]As he describes it, I keep in saying the greatest problem would be the control the Imperium would surely have over shipbuilding materials (lantanum ,etc).

I guess it would be as strict as they are for radioactive materials in today's real life.[/FONT]

As all trade is said materials could be mandated through only a SPA or SPA licensed Starport. I don't think the Imperium would really like to restrict any trade, so long as it gets its cut. Plus, if I 800 tons of raw lanthanum[FONT=arial,helvetica] from a world 18 parsecs away for semi-conducting rail service but someone skims 50 tons here and there, as a private contractor, I am not likely to care, if I can get a discount on the railcars that the middle man is promising from another world. Graft, hence, the bribery skill is rife in the OTU. YTUMV but if it does, you have just account for why the mechanic is there.

Let us not be Panglossian in our views of the 3I. The bigger the market, the bigger the corruption. Especially when you have a feudal political structure overlaying it. The SC is not a Republic in content just in form. So, you really have to the Zhodani, if you want a democracy and even that is a democracy of the Elect. Don't get me started on the Hivers...
[/FONT]

 

[McPerth]

As all trade is said materials could be mandated through only a SPA or SPA licensed Starport. I don't think the Imperium would really like to restrict any trade, so long as it gets its cut. Plus, if I 800 tons of raw lanthanum[FONT=arial,helvetica] from a world 18 parsecs away for semi-conducting rail service but someone skims 50 tons here and there, as a private contractor, I am not likely to care, if I can get a discount on the railcars that the middle man is promising from another world. Graft, hence, the bribery skill is rife in the OTU. YTUMV but if it does, you have just account for why the mechanic is there.

Let us not be Panglossian in our views of the 3I. The bigger the market, the bigger the corruption. Especially when you have a feudal political structure overlaying it. The SC is not a Republic in content just in form. So, you really have to the Zhodani, if you want a democracy and even that is a democracy of the Elect. Don't get me started on the Hivers...
[/FONT]

Well, we should ask Jawillroy about this aspect in his TU, but as he pinted it, I guess commenrce in protectorate worlsd may easily be restricted, most in those materials that can be used to build starsips, due to the restrictions they have on this building.

Also, as HG_B points, some economic footprints whould be left, and Jawillroy specifies that IN keeps an eye on those worlds just to avoid that (why esle would you like to hide yur shipyard?)

 

[Enoki]

Why hide the shipyard at all? The hulls, drives and, other components that are more or less common with commercial vessels could be left in plain sight. The only thing that has to be hidden are the military systems. Put these in another system entirely... preferably one the Imperium and others will not bother to look in.
You build the military systems in a modular fashion off world while building a hull and all the commercial common stuff in your yard. If the Imperium, etc., already know about the yard it wouldn't take much to keep the project looking like just another commercial build.
When the ship is ready for arming and such you simply 'fly' it to the arms depot using something for cover like calling the run a "test flight" or "shakedown cruise" to test the systems before completing the ship.
Once it jumps out of the system there is no telling where it is really headed; particularly if you are using a intermediary jump before going to the arms depot.

 

[rancke]

Why hide the shipyard at all? The hulls, drives and, other components that are more or less common with commercial vessels could be left in plain sight. The only thing that has to be hidden are the military systems. Put these in another system entirely... preferably one the Imperium and others will not bother to look in.

It's pretty obvious if a ship is designed to have a spinal weapon installed. Weapon bays... at the very least anyone can see if a ship could have bay weapons installed, even if the bays just happen to be used to carry small craft or whatever. That alone might arouse suspicion. Even just maxing out hardpoints might make an Imperial observer wonder why a 5,000T freighter needs 50 hardpoints.


Hans

 

[Enoki]

Actually, it would be quite easy. You have basically a shell. Once plated, the interior is not visible and if not open to inspection no one would really know what the lay out was. From the exterior there would be no visible hard points or other such items.
The yard's intent is to make the exterior look benign. Since no weapons are going aboard, and it would be difficult to determine from just a bunch of odd pieces being installed exactly what the interior framing and layout was.
The plans that are public could easily be doctored to present the necessary camoflauge to what is really being built.
The same goes for plumbing, electrical and, other systems. These are installed after the hull is plated up. The actual weapons go in after the ship is operational in terms of space flight. These could be modular in design and simply dropped into their postions on the ship after the outer plating that was never intended to be permanent is removed.

 

[McPerth]

Actually, it would be quite easy. You have basically a shell. Once plated, the interior is not visible and if not open to inspection no one would really know what the lay out was. From the exterior there would be no visible hard points or other such items.
The yard's intent is to make the exterior look benign. Since no weapons are going aboard, and it would be difficult to determine from just a bunch of odd pieces being installed exactly what the interior framing and layout was.
The plans that are public could easily be doctored to present the necessary camoflauge to what is really being built.
The same goes for plumbing, electrical and, other systems. These are installed after the hull is plated up. The actual weapons go in after the ship is operational in terms of space flight. These could be modular in design and simply dropped into their postions on the ship after the outer plating that was never intended to be permanent is removed.

And you really believe in a TU as Jawillroy tells us the Imperium will not inspect the interior laying of ships built by a protectoate memeber?

I guess just seeing protected electronic circuits, fiber optic computers (whose trade would also be regulated, I guess) or fire control elements would arise suspictions...

And if you don't allow interior inspections by teh Imperial agents...Well, say goodbay to your A/B starport license...

 

[shadowcat20]

Put it in the rock belt.

All your ships could be rocks. The frame is free, materials are abundant, no one would question supply ships going too and from a belt, and it would be away from prying eyes on the planet.

Your whole fleet would be cheap, armored, easly camoflaged ships. No shipyard to trace them to and built off the beaten track.

They could drift out of the pack when finished looking like a stray rock till they got far enough out to jump.

For vital parts and materials a "Pirate Problem" could account for a few lost freighters with the needed supplys in them. It would also justify the local fleet having more patrols of small craft for training ship crews.

 

[McPerth]

Put it in the rock belt.

All your ships could be rocks. The frame is free, materials are abundant, no one would question supply ships going too and from a belt, and it would be away from prying eyes on the planet.

Your whole fleet would be cheap, armored, easly camoflaged ships. No shipyard to trace them to and built off the beaten track.

They could drift out of the pack when finished looking like a stray rock till they got far enough out to jump.

For vital parts and materials a "Pirate Problem" could account for a few lost freighters with the needed supplys in them. It would also justify the local fleet having more patrols of small craft for training ship crews.

If prospectors work in the belt, some of them wold not be from the planet, so representing a seccurity threat. If there are none, supply ships going there would be suspicious (aside that this probably means materials are not so ready available there), if no licenses are given to outsystem belters, that may also arise suspicions.

And if you justify the vital parts and materials telling you have a 'pirate problem', that may well arise the interest of the IN, that will come to 'help in goodwill spirit', so putting all your plot in jeopardy

 

[HG_B]

They could drift out of the pack when finished looking like a stray rock till they got far enough out to jump.

Rocks that are lit up like bonfires on an open plain in middle of the night...

 

[Enoki]

And you really believe in a TU as Jawillroy tells us the Imperium will not inspect the interior laying of ships built by a protectoate memeber?

I guess just seeing protected electronic circuits, fiber optic computers (whose trade would also be regulated, I guess) or fire control elements would arise suspictions...

And if you don't allow interior inspections by teh Imperial agents...Well, say goodbay to your A/B starport license...

Have you ever been inside a modern warship? Have you ever seen or worked on one under construction? I have.
Virtually all of the inspection is done in-house not by outside agencies. Even in a TU as described I would expect the Imperial represenative to rarely venture out to the actual ship under construction and make even cursory inspections of it.
Few of the inspectors in such a system would be truly technical experts. Rather they would be mid-grade bureaucrats more interested in paperwork. Once the yard had a working relationship with such people they could easily cover up what they wanted to cover up. The yard would have more to fear form disgruntled workers or others in on the project than from a handful of Imperial bureaucrats that rarely ventured outside the Ship's Superintendent's office.

 

[rancke]

Have you ever been inside a modern warship? Have you ever seen or worked on one under construction? I have.
Virtually all of the inspection is done in-house not by outside agencies.

You mean that the power that forbids the U.S. to build warships doesn't check up on you to make sure you're not defying the ban?

Few of the inspectors in such a system would be truly technical experts. Rather they would be mid-grade bureaucrats more interested in paperwork.

Even someone who needs instructions printed on the heel to pour fluid out of a boot should be able to spot a big hollow cylindrical space running along the ship's spine. On a good day he might even be able to spot 50T bays.


Hans