how far away is the "frontier" in YTU

[Matt Wilson]

For those of you who have your own TUs, how far out is "the edge of explored space" in your setting? How long does it take to get there?

I'm thinking about an exploration-themed game, and I want to have a sort of "here be dragons" edge to it, but then I wonder why an exploration ship hasn't previously been there, or how I can avoid a 2 year journey to head back to home base. I need something like "fast oceans and slow jungles" or the equivalent of railway lines, where you can get to "Outpost 9" in a few weeks, but after that it's rough and slow and dangerous.

The expensive and time-consuming construction of stargates or similar, perhaps? Anyone done something like that? There's a setting that was done for EABA that kind of works that way, IIRC.

 

[Bartleby]

My Imperium is one sector. The frontier is about a subsector deep around the Imperium and the wilderness is beyond.

To make this narrative work everything over J-2 gets exponentially more expensive than RAW, so 95% of ships are J-2 or less. So all the planets of the frontier are at least J-3 from the Imperium planets.

 

[Spinward Flow]

For those of you who have your own TUs, how far out is "the edge of explored space" in your setting? How long does it take to get there?

This is honestly an interesting question ... because the "answer" to it depends on what you're really asking and trying to get at.

• Is the intent behind the question to determine "Where No One HAS Gone Before?"
• Or is the intent behind the question to determine "Where Hardly Anyone IS Right Now?"

If you're reaching for the former, then what you're looking for with your question is the "edge of the map" ... with everything beyond the edge of that map representing Stella Incognita ... literally unexplored/surveyed/charted star systems that no one has visited before.

If you're reaching for the latter, then the answer can be found in ANY low population (4- ...? ) UWP code on the sector maps. Anywhere that has a low population density per unit of terrain is going to have plenty of locations that have not been explored in (up close and personal) detail. I could even make an argument that any star system with a population: 6- with an asteroid/planetoid belt is going to have substantial quantities of unexplored territory (in the planetoid belts, if nowhere else).

My point being that as soon as you shift the framing of the question away from the "Where No One Has Gone Before?" implication in favor of something more akin to "Where Hardly Anyone Is Right Now?" ... suddenly the "frontier" can lie within almost each and every star system, including those with a self-sustaining, diversified economy on the mainworld. The "frontier" can be anywhere that DOESN'T have "a lot of people" THERE ... meaning that the "frontier" is wherever the limits of supply chains and "civilization" can reach, because beyond this point, you're on your own out there ... and if you call for help, you might not have it arrive during (what's left of) your lifetime.



Obviously, I personally would prefer that the "frontier" be defined as the "fringes of civilization" ... rather than it being defined as "the edge of the map" where you need to go OFF THE MAP in order to be "out on the frontier" (per se).

By defining the "frontier" as being wherever the presence of the institutions of civilization are "scant" (however you'd like to define that), it would mean that PLENTY of star systems on maps of Charted Space are technically ... still ... part of that "frontier" of an expanding (and/or retreating) presence of populations, governments and laws.

So for example, by that standard ... at least HALF of the Spinward Marches sector can be thought of as being "frontier" in the sense that there are (archipelago) "islands of civilization" scattered among the stars, where populations are high and governments have control, while the remainder of star systems are still struggling to build out a self(-ish) sustaining population and governing system. All of those "backwater podunk economic basket case" world economies you see on the sector map? Those places are STILL the "frontier" places holding on at the edge of civilization. They may have been (grand) surveyed before ... but is EVERYTHING about them known/explored? Probably not.

In other words, a "wild west frontier" can be ANYWHERE that population is sparse ... and that population needs to be able to "fend for itself" (or go under!) in the environment that it has to survive in.

There are plenty of places that "fit the bill" for this description in the Five Sisters, Vilis, District 268, Lanth and Aramis subsectors of the Spinward Marches ... just to give you an example of how you "don't have to jump off the map" in order to "find the frontier" if you're willing to accept that someone might have been here before, but they didn't find everything that was here to be found ... if you understand my meaning.

Exploration ... can still happen INSIDE the boundaries of well established polities that have claimed a star system for centuries (or even longer!).

 

[Bartleby]

My point being that as soon as you shift the framing of the question away from the "Where No One Has Gone Before?" implication in favor of something more akin to "Where Hardly Anyone Is Right Now?" ... suddenly the "frontier" can lie within almost each and every star system, including those with a self-sustaining, diversified economy on the mainworld.

This is an excellent point and one I keep re-learning as we play. You can be in a civilized system and still be days away from anyone and anything.

 

[Murph]

For me, my whole sector is pretty much "frontier" with a small island of civilization since much of the sector has not been explored due to a jump 3 barrier which has just been broken.

 

[Matt Wilson]

This is honestly an interesting question ... because the "answer" to it depends on what you're really asking and trying to get at.

Good distinctions. For clarification, one of the reasons I want to know where no one has been yet is potential for things like first contact with another spacefaring species, or the discovery of really weird anomalies. If there's a giant megastructure the size of a moon that's broadcasting signals in an unknown language, the scout ship from last year probably noticed.

 

[Matt Wilson]

For me, my whole sector is pretty much "frontier" with a small island of civilization since much of the sector has not been explored due to a jump 3 barrier which has just been broken.

Deliberately placing jump barriers is a good one! Dawn of a new TL, and the characters have one of the first ships refitted with the new drives.

 

[Matt Wilson]

You can be in a civilized system and still be days away from anyone and anything.

I think there are plenty of things that the initial survey team would have overlooked. Ruins and such, for sure, unless they're gargantuan.

Necessary infrastructure seems like an obvious thing [edit: to limit the edge of exploration]. It's a little bit tough, I think, finding a way to make the equivalent of a 100-ton type S the spearhead. There are a lot of sensible reasons why you'd send out a larger expedition, but that's less fun to me. Plus, you know how players can be. You say "sure, you can have a crate of oranges" thinking to yourself, what could they possibly do with that. And next thing you know they've opened a portal to hell.

 

[Dragoner]

It is right there, I have unexplored zones (subsectors) without systems generated so people can populate them with what they wish. Makara's Sea is a mini-exploration adventure, and Dragon's Eye is short fiction.

 

[kilemall]

I have an artificially constrained edge of space.

Jump requires grav maps on both ends and a running mass sensor within range of the jump point. Since a new system has not been mapped yet, a near C ship has to travel through normal space to get there, map then jump back.

So the frontier takes a decade or so per parsec.

I’m using the Imperium map, Nusku Dushaam and Procyon are next for discovery.

 

[Spinward Flow]

For clarification, one of the reasons I want to know where no one has been yet is potential for things like first contact with another spacefaring species, or the discovery of really weird anomalies.

First contact with a new species ... ... we Solomani have been occupying our homeworld for millennia already (in the real world), with documented history going back CENTURIES of exploration and research ... and we're STILL nowhere NEAR close to cataloging all of the life forms on the Solomani homeworld!

Sure, we've found the "obvious" ones that we interact with frequently, but every single year ... the more we look, the more we find.

And that's not even including the "incompleteness" of our understanding of the planetary fossil record for what lived here BEFORE but is no longer alive today (see: Dinosaur Bone Fossils as one example).



Now ... first contact with another spacefaring species, that "discovered" spacecraft technologies independently and is in the process of becoming a multi-planet species (so, pre-jump technology here, minor race stuff) ... those are exceptionally unlikely to be found.

Unless ... ... you're talking about some sort of "time capsule" type outpost installation that has members of an alien species "in stasis" waiting to be found. Note that this also (technically) includes a mildly famous Ridley Scott directed movie that was first released into theaters in 1979 ...

or the discovery of really weird anomalies.

This does not require ANYTHING SPECIAL as a pre-requisite.
Really weird anomalies are "easiest" to handle as sub-light objects passing through ANY star system on a hyperbolic orbital trajectory ... so think Interstellar Object type stuff.

Don't forget that in 60s Star Trek, multiple stories involved "stuff" coming IN FROM OUTSIDE ... including The Doomsday Machine and The Immunity Syndrome (among others). My point being that you don't always have to "send" your PCs "out" to find anomalies ... sometimes the anomalies COME TO THEM ...

And that's just the space based anomalies.
Anomalies could be discovered ANYWHERE that hasn't been surveyed THOROUGHLY ENOUGH to be well/completely understood ... which often times describes asteroid/planetoid belts in planetary systems.

Don't forget that LBB A1 The Kinunir featured the namesake first starship of the class "lost" for decades in a planetoid belt (that just so happens to be composed of ANTIMATTER, hence the Red Zone classification for the star system due to the extreme danger presented by that belt). My point being that there is canon precedent for "needle in the haystack" type discoveries of this kind, even in star systems that have been "on the map" for centuries already.

If there's a giant megastructure the size of a moon that's broadcasting signals in an unknown language, the scout ship from last year probably noticed.

If you (literally) "can't miss it" ... then yes, someone else will have very likely found it already.

But "finding" isn't always the problem ... exploring/surveying once found might require contracting "specialists" for the job ...
And if the megastructure is "too big" for a single survey expedition, then you might need multiple expeditions ... all going off in different directions ... at different times ...
Oh, is it our turn in the queue to enter the dungeon/haunted house/mysterious bog that no one has returned from yet? Well let's go!

I think there are plenty of things that the initial survey team would have overlooked. Ruins and such, for sure, unless they're gargantuan.

Depends on what the survey team was scanning FOR.
Were they just interested in precisely calculating the orbital trajectory of a celestial body (to update navigation hazards mapping) or were they creating an updated street view for Google Maps?

Not all surveys are searching for the same kinds of data to be analyzed.
Just think about how there are so many discoveries being made just from looking at old Hubble Telescope observations that hadn't been analyzed the way we can now. Sometimes the data has already been obtained, but recognition of what the data MEANS hasn't happened yet ...

Necessary infrastructure seems like an obvious thing [edit: to limit the edge of exploration]. It's a little bit tough, I think, finding a way to make the equivalent of a 100-ton type S the spearhead. There are a lot of sensible reasons why you'd send out a larger expedition, but that's less fun to me.

"Preliminary analysis of the sensor data gathered is inconclusive. There MIGHT be something there, but there might not be. A follow up expedition is needed for a closer look and more detailed scanning. Any volunteers?"

 

[Spinward Flow]

Something else to remember, to put things into an historical context.
Before the "Space Race" in the 1960s ... Low Earth Orbit(!) was legitimately considered "a new frontier" ... until Vostok 1 and the Mercury 7 proved that it was possible to put a man into space (and survive!) using TL=5 engineering hardware. That's because, although Low Earth Orbit "wasn't that far from the surface" of the planet ... NO ONE had ever gone there before (in person) ... so there were a LOT of "unknowns" about what it would take to go to THAT "frontier" in space.

In our present day (real world), Luna, Mars and Venus are the "next frontiers" that we Solomani need to explore ... even though we've known that these places exist for millennia prior to now. We've sent probes to a scattered few locations that are off the homeworld ... and we barely know anything (compared to what remains to be learned) about them.

On the Solomani homeworld itself, in the present day (real world) ... the depths of the oceans remains "another frontier" which humaniti has barely explored/scratched the surface of learning about.



In an age of reusable rocketry, the notion that Low Earth Orbit was at any time "beyond our reach" seems ... quaint ... but there was a time when it was true for almost all of recorded history. It's only recently that the "toys" involved in that playground have gotten "good enough" for us, as a species, to start thinking in terms of permanent habitation beyond the biosphere of the Solomani homeworld. And as we send people out into the night, to explore the Solar System, the "frontier" will retreat yet again ... because people will have moved into spaces and places that they didn't exist in before.

 

[Spinward Flow]

If there's a giant megastructure the size of a moon that's broadcasting signals in an unknown language, the scout ship from last year probably noticed.

Let's just say that the odds amount to ... don't roll a critical fail/fumble with your dice ...

 

[Spinward Flow]

how far out is "the edge of explored space" in your setting? How long does it take to get there?

Sometimes ... words are just inadequate for explaining the wonders that can be seen out in the fringes of (well explored) space.
Sometimes ... nothing will do to convey the sense of ... AWE INSPIRING WONDER ... that you would have, without actually Being There™.

Here are a few examples for you to peruse ... and these are just simply sunrises (mostly) ... to give you a sense of Scale & Scope for possibilities.

 

[bookwyrm]

Known/Explored space is up to 12 jumps away from any class A-B star ports and some C star ports.

Frontier space is up to 12 jumps outside of Known/Explored space consisting of a few class C & D, but mostly E & X star ports.

Wilderness space is space outside of Frontier space that hasn't been explored by ships from Known/Explored space. There may be a few curious ship captains who've travelled into Wilderness space and haven't discovered anything that would interest anyone in Frontier or Known/Explored space or just haven't returned.

 

[Condottiere]

AMAZON DOLLPHINS
FROM THE
DEPTHS​

 

[Matt Wilson]

Frontier space is up to 12 jumps outside of Known/Explored space consisting of a few class C & D, but mostly E & X star ports.

Wilderness space is space outside of Frontier space that hasn't been explored by ships from Known/Explored space. There may be a few curious ship captains who've travelled into Wilderness space and haven't discovered anything that would interest anyone in Frontier or Known/Explored space or just haven't returned.

That'd make for a big map! Known space would be a full sector, I suppose, unless there are big uncrossable rifts.

What led you to decide on those numbers?

 

[bookwyrm]

That'd make for a big map! Known space would be a full sector, I suppose, unless there are big uncrossable rifts.

What led you to decide on those numbers?

I did mention 'up to 12 jumps', so it could be fewer, depending on the situation.

12 jumps refers to 12 jumps out and 12 jumps back with an extra jump for a total of 25 jumps a year. This is based on the tempo of your average trade ship being 1 week on planet, 1 week in jump, 2 weeks a year doing annual maintenance.

Normally, a home planet would cautiously explore, colonize, consolidate, repeat. But in Traveller, Humans & other Sophents are expanding from multiple home planets quite quickly (at least, that's how it looks to me).

And then there's some kind of timeline. When Jump 1 is discovered, it's going to be used to see what's out there. How long has Jump been available. Is Known Space based on the Home World or a world colonized by a colony ship that misjumped a long ways from the Home World and has to almost start surviving from scratch and reach for the stars again. Depending on how far the misjump is, it could be decades, centuries, or a millennia before the Home World discovers the 'Lost Colony' that has become it's own 'Home World' with it's own colonies that have nothing to do with the original Home World.

And Yes, there are many scenarios of how a Home World & it's Known Space came to be.