How common is Battle Dress?

[Meeko100]

I was just thinking to myself as I was browsing my PDFs of various traveler books, and I'm somewhat left asking after reading the Mongoose Mercenary book, and a few of the Pirates of Drinax adventures through again just how common it is on the battlefield.

The way it seems from the books seems to have it be that any soldier worth his pay in the 3I is waltzing around in battle dress toting a FGMP, but at least to me that seems like it would make keeping a army funded deathly expensive. A single TL14 Battle Dress costs 2.5 MCr, and a single FGMP-14 is another 100,000 credits. For the cost of equipping 10 soldiers, a entire scout ship could be bought. It seems just so incredibly expensive to have infantry running around in that expensive of kit, especially when, at that level of power their own armor is somewhat worthless (FGMP-14 does 10d6 damage from MgT core, and battle dress maxes at 18 points of armor. A few lucky dice.)

So, opinions? It just seems odd that is quite as frequent as it seems to be in the 3I when at their cost you could have bought a spaceship with a laser cannon to zap folk from the skies with. How common do you have dress be IYTU? Are they limited to the guys toting the smartgun or are they ubiquitous?

 

[casquilho]

It depends on the setting, but if we look at the LBBs we see Battledress shows up at TL13 and later, the 3I is placed at TL15. So if technology jumps at that TL level the way it seems to earlier on the list, I would say Battledress would be frequently found on the battlefield. Now does that mean the PCs should be able to get it easy, heck no. But Governments could afford to have them and the fact is, they buy what they need to stay in power.

 

[creativehum]

It depends on the setting, but if we look at the LBBs we see Battledress shows up at TL13 and later, the 3I is placed at TL15...

A note on this from the later books:

average Imperial 11
average Imperial 12
above average Imperial 13
above average Imperial 14
Imperial maximum 15

So, Battledress is above average Imperial technology. Each person will run the Third Imperium as they see fit. It seems to me that battledress would most likely be available and used on a regular basis further back toward the Imperial core. It is, by definition of the table, still exceptional within the Imperium.

 

[casquilho]

A note on this from the later books:

average Imperial 11
average Imperial 12
above average Imperial 13
above average Imperial 14
Imperial maximum 15

So, Battledress is above average Imperial technology. Each person will run the Third Imperium as they see fit. It seems to me that battledress would most likely be available and used on a regular basis further back toward the Imperial core. It is, by definition of the table, still exceptional within the Imperium.

True, but I always took the "average" to be just that. The average of those low TL fringe worlds included. Oh well, guess we each have our own vision.

And as I said, it depends on the setting, and by setting I didn't mean just 3I variations. I meant any setting someone uses will impact the answer either way. As your blog entries have pointed out, Traveller can be much more than just the 3I.

 

[creativehum]

True, but I always took the "average" to be just that. The average of those low TL fringe worlds included.

That's an excellent point.

I always assumed those values were for Imperial worlds proper. So. for example, most of the worlds in the Marches would not count.

And I read "average" to mean "typical." Which makes no sense, I suppose.

Still, for me. I'd love it that if a company of soldiers in Battledress shows up it's a big f'ing deal. Terror strikes everyone's hearts and so on.

There is a power in having a dial that goes to 11 -- but withholding it's use so it retains dramatic effect!

 

[mike wightman]

The introductions to LBB4 and LBB5 tell me that the Imperium maintains TL15 forces on their frontiers at the IN bases and the like; no matter what the local TL is the base is TL15.
I also always assumed that as you move 'off board' towards the Imperium core worlds the average starport type becomes a B and more worlds (hence people) live at the higher TLs.

 

[McPerth]

I was just thinking to myself as I was browsing my PDFs of various traveler books, and I'm somewhat left asking after reading the Mongoose Mercenary book, and a few of the Pirates of Drinax adventures through again just how common it is on the battlefield.?

The way it seems from the books seems to have it be that any soldier worth his pay in the 3I is waltzing around in battle dress toting a FGMP, but at least to me that seems like it would make keeping a army funded deathly expensive. A single TL14 Battle Dress costs 2.5 MCr, and a single FGMP-14 is another 100,000 credits. For the cost of equipping 10 soldiers, a entire scout ship could be bought. It seems just so incredibly expensive to have infantry running around in that expensive of kit, especially when, at that level of power their own armor is somewhat worthless (FGMP-14 does 10d6 damage from MgT core, and battle dress maxes at 18 points of armor. A few lucky dice.)

So, opinions? It just seems odd that is quite as frequent as it seems to be in the 3I when at their cost you could have bought a spaceship with a laser cannon to zap folk from the skies with. How common do you have dress be IYTU? Are they limited to the guys toting the smartgun or are they ubiquitous?

Note: all this post assumes MgT, as it is your refenence. Things vary quite a lot in other versions

First of all, you fall short in your numbers. As given in MgT:CB, the TL 14 battledress costs MCr 3.5, not 2.5; and the TL 14 FGMP inflicts 16d6 damage, not 10d6 (though none of this voids your points).

This said, the main use of Battledress, aside the support it gives you (in form of computer and stregth enhancement, etc.) is not to protect you against enemy fire, but against your own weapon dangers (radiation, as explained in MgT CB page 102, in the FGMP description).

3I average is TL 11, but Imperial forces are not average, they are the elite of the Imperial military, and so equiped to the best, so that they represent such a threat that it rarely has o be put to wear.

But I don't believe FGMP to be the main used weapon by them. FGMP description (again in page 102) says it is like a directed nuclear explosion, and I don't believe the Imperial Marines (or army, for what's worth) go nuking everything they fight against (if it comes to that, using the fleet as ortillery to bomb the target to stone age is more efficient).

Personally I think the main Imperial Troops' weapons are laser rifles, as they are letal enough, have no recoil (good in zero-G) and have not the FGMP dangers (both to firer and target), FGMP being left as a threat that is rarely used. Batltedress, though, I think to be standard issue even if only to keep the threat credible...

 

[Travellerspud]

IMTU, battledress is used almost exclusively by Imperial and Zhodani elite troops (marines & special forces mostly). Each suit is generally equipped with a grav belt, basic ECM, and a suite of electronics in addition to a tethered laser rifle and ram GL (the ram GL is shoulder mounted). Heavy weapons troopers carry a shoulder mounted twin tac missle launcher or carry an FGMP15. Almost a mini tank.

...most troops use combat armor, with a helmet radio (or combat environment suits or cloth at lower techs)

 

[jec10]

One key issue here left unspoken is that for some reason MGT vastly inflates the price of Battle Dress from other versions of Traveller. MCr 2.5 to 3.5 is a HUGE amount. As the OP points out, it seems highly improbable that Battle Dress would be used much beyond a few elite units when it costs so much.

When BD costs Cr200,000 to 300,000 as it does in most variants of Traveller then you could see use being more widespread.

 

[aramis]

One key issue here left unspoken is that for some reason MGT vastly inflates the price of Battle Dress from other versions of Traveller. MCr 2.5 to 3.5 is a HUGE amount. As the OP points out, it seems highly improbable that Battle Dress would be used much beyond a few elite units when it costs so much.

When BD costs Cr200,000 to 300,000 as it does in most variants of Traveller then you could see use being more widespread.

It varies widely. For example Imperial Marine Battledress is MCr4 in MT; a bare bones kit is KCr200. And they're quite different beasties. The TL15 IMBD has built in optics, built in grav belt, built in camouflage, and more.

 

[salochin999]

I see it as being commonly available but uncommonly used due to the logistics of power packs.

So a gang boss on a TL 15 high law planet might have a couple of bodyguards in battle dress with baseball bats because they can get hold of spare power packs easily.

Whereas the President of a TL10 world might not bother because the power packs run out too fast and they don't have the equipment to recharge them.

 

[casquilho]

Still, for me. I'd love it that if a company of soldiers in Battledress shows up it's a big f'ing deal. Terror strikes everyone's hearts and so on.

Oh I quite agree. Even in my game, if the Marines show up in Battledress, someone is in real trouble.

 

[aramis]

I've always seen BD as only for the elite units - the Drop Troops, the Guards and the assorted heavy Huscarles.

IMTU, however, that level of protection is pretty common... but it's from Combat Armor, not BD.

With kitted out BD costing upwards of MCr2 (keeping in mind that the one in the CT rulebook is bare minimum — 2x Str, unlimited endurance for blows, and BD/CA armor level, but nothing else), most imperial troops will instead be in combat armor. And the difference between CA + Grav Belt and BD + Grav Belt is only material in melee or high gravity...

Further, it's canonical that BD is slow to put on. CA is a minute or two. BD is 5-10 minutes.

Plus, BD requires more upkeep effort, due to many more mechanical systems. CA, especially if it's plate over compressive suit (instead of air-in-limb designs), is mechanically far simpler. CA, most of the complexity is in the (replacable) PLSS pack. BD, it's complex throughout the suit.

 

[Meeko100]

Huh, ok guys. Thanks for the input, That was just a question i was thinking about. I agree with the idea that BDs mainly used by special forces and the like. That simplicity is worth it, at least from what I'd figure, so you wouldn't want everyone running around in the stuff, because you'd be having quite a few techs also running around d keeping things in order.

I don't really think that imperial marines would be less of a big deal without Dress, because it would seem that the problems they pose to the characters are mostly because they're A) very skilled at shooting B) they're equipped with notably deadly weapons (gauss/laser/ACRs are rather good at dealing with most anything short of BD) and C) they aren't usually aalone.A dozen or so reasonably armed trained marines seem very capable to deal with whatever naughtiness the group has gotten themselves involved in.

I think in going to go through my copy of the MgT CSC and fiddle with the CA and BD and the other Armors strength. I kinda like the idea that the guys have the option to use violence if they feel like its smart (not that its the easiest option), and I may just lower the values of some armor values so that something without armor penetration can be at least some what dangerous to most armors. Don't want them getting too cozy in there. Also should fiddle with the prices as well. 2 MCr is really rather outrageous, so I may adjust the trailing zeroes on Dress and CA. A squad of infantrymen kit should not cost more then the transport they rode in on.

So, tl;dr, After some significant fiddling with numbers i think that battle dress is mostly going to be a extremely fancy strike suit for special forces or for high tier bodyguards. Most guys in the IA/IM are probably suited in CA.

 

[jec10]

It varies widely. For example Imperial Marine Battledress is MCr4 in MT; a bare bones kit is KCr200. And they're quite different beasties. The TL15 IMBD has built in optics, built in grav belt, built in camouflage, and more.

Can you give me a reference for that MCr4 suit? I'm looking in MegaTrav Journal #1 at the Tom Peters article and I'm not seeing it. In fact, I'm not seeing any suit costing more than half a million credits, and there are some pretty tricked out suits there.

 

[salochin999]

This got me thinking about progression over time

if the original suit is just a str and end boost then you could imagine it starting as

- civilian: exoskeleton for heavy lifting
- civilian: exoskeleton for standard lifting on high G worlds
- civilian: vacc suit + exoskeleton
- military: as above

possibly starting off originally with a power cable rather than a power pack then when mobile power packs are developed some more flexible military uses, initially maybe

- military: heavy weapons teams
- military: maybe squad support weapons
- military: engineers
- military: specialist units for high G worlds

limit is the power packs, initially don't last long, expensive, the logistic costs limit their usefulness except in situations like cargo bays where a power cable or a fast recharge is available

gradually turn into Iron Man suits as TL and power packs improve - at TL15 assault marines in military battle dress might be able to jump from one ship onto the hull of another, magnetise themselves to hold on and then start punching their way through the hull.

#

anyway thinking aloud makes me think there should be

1) early civilian version of battle dress
- mostly fixed position, either power cable or very short life power pack needs constant recharging
- used in construction, forestry, warehouses, high G worlds
- military equivalent for non-combat roles e.g. loading bays

2) early crude military versions
- armored by default
- gradually improving power longevity
- heavy weapons teams first then squad support weapons
- initially more rear echelon for recharging reasons: base construction, engineers, base defense
- or for short term tasks: like assault then detach skeleton when power fails
- or very high value tasks with small elite units was worth the logistic hassle of supplying lots of power packs

(can just about imagine early military versions where the wearers have BD and a vehicle with a power cable e.g. forward observers)

3) late version military
- slowly turning into space marines - best if the power pack problem is never fully fixed to keep it limited to elites

however also

4) early BD with higher TL power pack

so for example a salvage company having early civilian BD (vacc suit + exo skeleton) that used to need a power cable but now has TL15 power packs that last an hour instead of the TL12 ones that lasted ten minutes.

That could be a fun addition to a dungeon crawl - the equivalent of plate armor but with longevity issues - or even a power cable that risks being pulled out or cut.

(i like thinking about the timeline as finding old versions of tech on remote worlds can be fun - like a bunker has a sealed room with TL11 BD (as cloth, str+4, 100m power cable, mini gun.)

 

[whulorigan]

Just something to note (depending on which version of Traveller you are playing):

MgT: Central Supply Catalogue (and also T5, if you study the Makers carefully), has a middle option between Combat Armor and Battle Dress - namely "Powered Armor". IIRC, it generally has the strength enhancement of Battle Dress, but not the bracing (meaning that you cannot fire a non-grav-compensated heavy weapon system from it, like a PGMP-13 or FGMP-14).

The primary advantage of Battle Dress would seem to be the bracing for various Infantry Heavy Weapon options. CT:Book 4 - Mercenary notes (in the Ironmongery section) that the primary weapon for non-powered troops remains the Gauss Rifle at TL15. So the employment of Battle Dress would seem to be associated more with how many Infantry Heavy Weapon systems do you want to deploy with your unit. And if they are grav-compensated weapons (like the PGMP-14), then you don't really need Battle Dress to operate them.

 

[Vargas]

What about the notion that high tech armor and weapons change the composition of the fighting force? I realize that books like Mercenary outline what is a mid-20th century TOE but what if it's much more along the lines of Starship Troopers, where a squad does the job of a platoon (or something like that). I'm not saying it's not still costly, just less costly.

 

[McPerth]

I'll keep taling about MgT, as is re therence given in the OP.

I see the Imperial Marines quite as Starship Troopers Mobile Infantry, and, as such, all of them are equiped with Battledress. After all they are a (relatively) small corps of elite troops, and (along with the Navy) the main political weapon for the Imperium. In most cases they have to act, they will be outnumbered, and only equipement, skill and support (mostly from the IN again) will carry the day.

See that it is a must for any soldier using a FGMP (unles he's quite suicidal) and any trooper expected to be on their immediate vecinity (sorry, MgT:CB does not specify what distance this means) due to radiation hazard.

Also see that in MgT, the Marines get it at level 0 in their initial training, as it is in the Service Skills Table (through in page 87 it is specified that it requires level 1 to effectively using it).

Enterily another thing is how often BD is really used...

First, I asume they are no easy to don, requiring several minutes (at least) for the soldier to become combat ready when it has to be worn.

Second: I have serious doubts about they being comfortable, and ,while any soldier will gladly wear them in combat, not so much when combat is not expected. And in close quarters (as any ship interiors) they may even be dangerous, aside from uncomfortable (even more so than vac suit).

Third: especifically for the FGMP armed troopers, again I don't expect for theose kind of weaponry to be usually used, due to radiation hazards (as explained before)

So, my take is that Marines don't use to wear it, except when they expect to need it, even though they are widespread issue for them. their usual non dress uniforms and equipment would be more like the CES, but when trouble is expected they get fully ready with the BD (maybe a small quick response unit is kept in BD just in case in any Marine unit, let's say a squad per battalion).

It can be argued that having this expensive piece of equipment to be mostly on storage would be inefficient, as it is seldom used, but how often are used those expensive nukes and ICBMs (and their platforms, as the even more expensive SSBNs) in RL, and they are kept anyhow as a deterrant?

Likewise, the Imperium must keep a credible threat (and not only that of an ortillery genocide) if it's going to survive and keep the upper hand, and that's the raison d'être of those BD equiped Marines (and to materilaize this threat from time to time if the need arise).

possibly starting off originally with a power cable rather than a power pack then when mobile power packs are developed some more flexible military uses, initially maybe

- military: heavy weapons teams
- military: maybe squad support weapons
- military: engineers
- military: specialist units for high G worlds

limit is the power packs, initially don't last long, expensive, the logistic costs limit their usefulness except in situations like cargo bays where a power cable or a fast recharge is available

gradually turn into Iron Man suits as TL and power packs improve - at TL15 assault marines in military battle dress might be able to jump from one ship onto the hull of another, magnetise themselves to hold on and then start punching their way through the hull.

Agreed. While I already told about Heavy and support weapons squads, I didn't think about engineers until I read your post.

Oh I quite agree. Even in my game, if the Marines show up in Battledress, someone is in real trouble.

IMTU it's quite true the phrase that says When the Marines show up, the party is over

 

[kilemall]

Imperial Army and various planetary/subsector armies/marines would be CA.

I have issues with BD as presented for the most part, notably Striker, even in the six-digit cost range far too vulnerable to RAM GLs to be worth the money- as noted, the economics vs. effect point to outnumbered must win sort of situations. I'll continue to address it in the CT thread.

Or, Very Special Megacorps dirty ops/VIP-noble bodyguards.

Forget the average merc outfit, they can't afford it and be solvent.

MgT Powered Armor is indeed a very nice nuanced intermediate step, and the extras for BD are quite nice. The plasma conduit option is a much needed tech step to rectify an otherwise drab world of mass annihilation.

One thing that caught my eye reading back through the classic stuff was the +2 surprise rule.

For the most part I don't care for initiative rolls anyway as I prefer speed/skill first systems, but that particular BD ability can suggest many things, including speed, stealth, and/or situational awareness/sensor advantage.