Homeworld Identity... Homeworldism?

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Lords,

When you generate a character, do you normally incorporate the place where he or she is from into the psychological makeup, or is the Homeworld that place that your character left at age 18?

What are your thoughts on Homeworld Identity in a character?

 

[flykiller]

What are your thoughts on Homeworld Identity in a character?

after twenty years in the scouts or marines there might not be much homeworld identity remaining.

 

[mike wightman]

It depends a lot on career choise.

Using just the CT careers for brevity:

Army/Navy/Marines - homeworld or further afield? If the character serves in the homeworld armed forces for several terms then homeworld identity will still be there. If the character joins a subsector or sector wide armed force then their homeworld may become much less important than their service "family".
Scouts - I would imagine that those who survive lose most of their homeworld identity, they may even find it hard to fit back in.
Merchant - this depends upon the type of merchant service as well. If a subsidised outfit with the homeworld as a port of call then a lot of planetary identity could remain. Go to work for a free trader that roams far and wide, or a sector wide line, and homeworld ties would suffer.
Other - could be anything... stay at home or wander the stars. If the latter then once again I would say planetary ties would suffer.

I don't think in the early days we worried about homeworlds at all.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What are your thoughts on Homeworld Identity in a character?

after twenty years in the scouts or marines there might not be much homeworld identity remaining. </font>[/QUOTE]Why not? people can spend 20-30 years living in different countries on Earth and still think and act in terms of their home culture. I don't think you can get rid of one's background and origins that easily...

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What are your thoughts on Homeworld Identity in a character?

after twenty years in the scouts or marines there might not be much homeworld identity remaining. </font>[/QUOTE]Why not? people can spend 20-30 years living in different countries on Earth and still think and act in terms of their home culture. I don't think you can get rid of one's background and origins that easily... </font>[/QUOTE]I'm gonna disagree with you here Malenfant. I think part of the basic training for Imperial Service would be tearing down and rebuilding your character. Largely stripping your homeworld loyalties and identity to make you a Citizen Of The Imperium. You would still probably have some fondness for your planet of birth if you started with any, but your identity would be Imperial. Of course if you enter service later in your life and after some other career the effect would be much less, or nonexistant.

Drawing conclusions based on life on one small, backwards, blue planet probably won't work in this case

Now, that just goes for Imperial Service, other interstellar careers wouldn't have that and might not make you a true Imperial Citizen either, though that's a different topic, and I think was already done a bit somewhere on the boards.

 

[robject]

I dunno... you may be right. The Imperium isn't really like a country. Maybe it's like the British Empire at its height, which did tend to Anglicize people. The difference seems to be that there is no actual "Imperial homeland" -- not even Sylea -- the Imperium owns it all, and yet owns none of it. It owns "the space between the stars".

At least the Ziru Sirka could claim Vland as a homeworld; likewise the Solomani Confederation with Terra.

It still seems people, even the militarily conditioned, would have an ache for their homeland.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by robject:
It still seems people, even the militarily conditioned, would have an ache for their homeland.

Maybe it's the cynical side of my nature but I don't think the Imperium could exist if that were allowed.

The Imperium is the Moot and it's representitives are the Heriditary Nobles. They are concerned with thier homeworlds to a degree but empire to a greater level.

In this they need the services to protect the empire (more so on the frontiers) and to a smaller degree their homeworlds (more so in the core). Having fleets of warships and armies of soldiers who may balk at sacrificing the defense of some insignificant world for the empire because it happened to be the planet of thier birth won't do.

So the services indoctrinate and reward at the same time by turning all recruits into loyal Citizens. And yes to a degree, citizens without a homeland, except as you note, "the space between the stars". Kind of a lonely thought. Of course some of these citizens will go home when their service is done, but how will they fit in. Is it any wonder so many ex-service personell are Travellers.

 

[robject]

This kind of reminds me of "Hammer's Slammers" and "The Mercenary".

 

[far-trader]

No doubt a heavy influence on my take of the issue, mixed with a little Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", Haldeman's "Forever War", and others.

 

[Malenfant]

I'd agree with robject, the Imperium isn't really a culture at all. It is for the nobility perhaps, but for the guy on the ground the loyalties are first and foremost to the planet or nation they're living in, and in many cases the Imperium is just something that happens far away and is largely irrelevant to the running of the world and its culture.

Like, we're all in the United Nations, but most people would not think of themselves as such - they'd be American, English, Canadian, European, African, Australian etc. And even within those blocks there are subdivisions - Islander, British Columbian, Albertan, Texan, New Englander etc etc. Certainly I think that "Imperium" is just too damn big for any person to say "I'm an Imperial Citizen" - they'd be making a much bigger deal out of their home district/nation on their homeworld, and at most of their polity if they're in somewhere like the Sword Worlds.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I dunno. I think folks who pull 1, 2 tours in the Navy/Marines/Scouts would tend to still identify with their homeworlds (though a bit more "worldly"

).
Folks who make a career of it will tend to become slightly homogenous in their thought, speech, outlook, etc.
I don't think, though, that Imp service is going to indoctrinate them to the point that they lose all loyalty to their homeworld. You would create very messed up people if you did that - the ones that aren't career-oriented need to have someplace to call home.

 

[mike wightman]

Traveller has always been pretty vague as to who are granted Imperial citizen status and exactly what it means.
Is every living being born on an Imperial member world an Imperial citizen? What rights does that grant them?

Most people who stay in the same subsector as their home planet are going to maintain some attachment to it.

I wonder if the Imperium deliberately stations people far away from home so that they develop a greater attachment to the Imperium as a whole?

 

[flykiller]

I think part of the basic training for Imperial Service would be tearing down and rebuilding your character. Largely stripping your homeworld loyalties and identity to make you a Citizen Of The Imperium.

hadn't thought of any indoctrination (though it's a great idea), was just thinking of twenty years away from home on a normal duty tour. fresh eighteen-year-old sets out to see the universe - if he had anything happening at home he'd be staying home taking care of it - and there he goes, getting educated, getting paid, flying starships, blowing up things, covert actions, operating hundreds of megacredits worth of equipment, all that fun stuff. and likely seeing worlds better than his own on ocassion. probably the best indoctrination would be the experience of just being there.

I wonder if the Imperium deliberately stations people far away from home so that they develop a greater attachment to the Imperium as a whole?

'swhat the soviets did. only that was mostly so they could order the troops to fire on civilians if necessary and the troops would know that no-one they knew was being killed.

 

[kaladorn]

Think of the situation:

I am an Imperial Drill Instructor at a basic training school. I get in recruits from all different sorts of religious, cultural, technical, etc. backgrounds. CHAOS!

So such a school *has* to be oriented around reducing everyone to least-common-denominator (the basics of being human). So you break them down. For each recruit, what needs broken away differs. In the end, you are left with a snivelling, unhappy, broken mass. But what do you really have? Raw material for soldiers.

You then build them back up, but only *as a team*. Success does not come from individual efforts. You let them win as a group or not at all. That builds camaraderie. You make them all wear the same uniform. They eat the same food. They do the same tasks. They get up at the same time. Etc. You enforce regimen and discipline and uniformity.

And then, when you're all done, you've got troops that are loyal to one another and their service, who think mostly the same way, etc.

Now, sure, when you let them out of basic training, they eventually recall they are humans and have disparate interests and backgrounds. But they are left with the rebuilt core (or perhaps, ironically corps?) of common values, shared experience, and shared education and understanding. They also have had all the traditions of their service inculcated into them, as well as a number of values valuable to their instructors.

So, it is a form of brain washing. Sure, over time, some shake it off and say 'what am I doing in the Army?' or 'I hate officers and being given orders!'. This is probably easier for draftees. The volunteer forces do much better - I'm actually surprised anyone can draft into the Marines - I'd have thought keeping that all volunteer was a far better decision.

Anyway, you'll still have hometown/world rivalries, etc. But you'll still have the overarching commonality - you're all Sailors, or Soldiers, or Marines. And you serve who? The Imperium. More personally, the Emperor. He pays your checks, his symbology is all over your kit and your ships and your vehicles, and his picture shows up a lot in spots around the bases, etc.

That's the only way such disparate Imperial forces could function together at all well - common standards, common training and education, and common core values (after rebuilding is complete).

This is a more modern world approach, and less like that used in say the British Empire of the elder days, I admit.

 

[Malenfant]

What I'd like to know is why anyone would want to join the Imperial armed forces in the first place. Why would you want to defend some abstract, distant interstellar empire from even more distant threats when your own homeworld needs you to deal with threats that are much closer to home?

 

[Golan2072]

A common enemy could also go a long way towards consolidating a common "Imperial" identity. The common core values would be shown as in stark contrast with those of the enemy - be that the Zhodani or the Solomani or someone else.

 

[Maynard]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Traveller has always been pretty vague as to who are granted Imperial citizen status and exactly what it means.
Is every living being born on an Imperial member world an Imperial citizen? What rights does that grant them?

I ran across some references of some kind of 'universal rights' for Imperial citizens once, but can't remember where, but it always struck me as inconsistent witht he reality of the Imperium, as local governments were mostly left intact, like Charismatic Dictatorships and extreme law levels and such, as well as the usual Mega Corp hijinks. I never came across a clear idea of just what the 'privilege' of paying Imperial taxes on top of the local taxes was supposed to bring, either.

I never got the impression from the adventures and general tone of the Imperium that it was a 'benelovent' bureacracy and power. The origins of the several Imperiums struck me as more of a 'Conquer And Pacify' type deal in it's early expansions, with admissions to the 'rights' a later reward for subservience to the local political powers, rather than a wholesale 'abolition of the common peasant's feudal obligations' for the vast bulk of the Empire's regular citizens.

A comparison would be the U.S.'s supposed 'liberation' of many Central American and Caribbean countries from the 'shackles of Spanish Opression', beginning with Teddy Roosevelt's expansionism, when in reality it was all a front for corporate and financial interests taking over control of those economies for their own personal gain. It's really no different today, either.

I would think one's attachment to their homeworld culture would be entirely an individual thing, with some submerging their roots more thoroughly than others.

I recall many 25 year veterans who still had their regional accents, and were going to returned home when they retired. It depended a lot on the strengths of family ties and freindships more than money, like or dislike of Govt., whatever.

Some people hate where they grew up, have no friends, were never close to their own family, for whatever reason. Those would probably have no interest in even visiting their old 'hometown' once they could get away from it.

 

[flykiller]

Success does not come from individual efforts. You let them win as a group or not at all.

doesn't seem appropriate for the scout service.

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
A common enemy could also go a long way towards consolidating a common "Imperial" identity. The common core values would be shown as in stark contrast with those of the enemy - be that the Zhodani or the Solomani or someone else.

That would make more sense from the POV of the other side. The Zhos have their cultural homogeneity and can point over the border at the Imperiuals and say "we're not like them". The Sollies have their superiority complex and history of conflict with the Imperium and can say 'we're not like them' too.

But the Imperium is too varied and sprawling for that I think. I don't think there IS a "common Imperial identity" - it's never been described anywhere anyway. And really, with all the varied goverments and cultures on all the worlds, where would there be any ROOM for an Imperial identity?

I mean, look at the US. Technically it's part of the UN (even if it doesn't act like it), but no American would say "oh, I'm a member of the UN". They'd say "I'm a Texan" or "I'm a New Englander" or whatever first, then say they're American, and the UN wouldn't even show up on their radar, because it doesn't really have a separate identity.

 

[Piper]

Wouldn't it also depend, at least partly, on the type of world that "home" is? Given toxic atmospheres, high population densities and some bizarre governments, some planets might not be worth returning to.
A new recruit from a place like that, getting his/her first liberty on a planet with open skies, beaches and beer is either going to think s/he's found heaven or run screaming back to the ship.

Alternatively, some repressive governments might not allow ex-service returnees because of the "corrupting" influences they've been exposed to. Imperial regulations might specifically prevent this in the same way that the Imperium seems to be able to recruit from any world. No doubt part of the privilege of being a member.

One of the major distinctions between the Imperium and the British Empire is the inclusiveness of the Imperium's services. The British raised colonial military units, but they always remained colonials while the Imperium is open to any member. They dispatched political officers instead of recruiting and training locals. (Not to pick on the Brits; everyone else did the same thing) This might have the effect of making the Imperium more real to the average citizen and not some cold and distant overlord.

Very interesting thread and certainly giving me food for thought on homeworld backgrounds. I usually shrugged it off using the MT system. I think in the future it will deserve some more serious attention.
Thanks!