Hit System V1, V2 and V0

[arentol]

Your Bullet-1 weapons now can put an NPC down if you choose to use the mook rules (10+ = out).

And has a better chance of putting down an average person (777777), average roll on !D is 3.5 call it 4 this gives severity 2 and an average roll on 2D is 7, first hit in a combat is all applied to a randomly determined stat but since they are all 7 doesn't matter and the average Joe goes down.

How would you apply Tranq-1, and does it work with the above system? I don't think it does, making the system still broken, but because the rules are so poorly documented I am not sure whether I am interpreting 222 and 225 correctly in this regard or not.

 

[Licheking]

whatever gets through the Sealed rating is the amount of rounds that the target is unconscious. There is no mention of Severity so its applied directly from the Effect no need for a further damage roll. At least thats how i would do it within my interpretation of the combat system.

 

[cuTTer]

The Severity chart is on page 232, centre bottom

I had a good long look at p.232 as a whole. My take on it is that the table in question is for randomly assigning the severity of a repair job on a vehicle, ship or other 'thing'. This is required as these 'things' don't have Hit Points to halve to determine severity.

I appreciate the inclusion of the anatomical and biological categories confuse the issue, as do the 'useful skills' Biologics and Medical, but I'm guessing that's because some of this tech can have a biological component.

Whacky, whacky T5...

Glancing back at the beta pdf, the the header had an explicit qualifier which was removed from the 'finished' product.

"Battle Damage disables vehicles and equipment. Depending in its severity, it may be able to be repaired."

 

[Supplement Four]

A 4 Severity injury is 4 Dice applied to the characters C1, C2, or C3 as is mentioned in the BTSD section when Eneri took a light (1D) wound. I agree its not spelled out in big glowing letters and i would like to see more examples but that is my interpretation of the wounding rules and combat mechanics.

I see what you're saying, but I don't agree at all that's what Marc intended with T5.

Here's the way the example you are speaking of works out--

BTSD (page 233) is showing an example of using Bad Flux. The roll for the Bad Flux was a modified -1 for Eneri and a -2 for Aia and a 0 for the ATV.

Looking at the BTSD table on that same page, a roll of -1 equates to Slight damage.

A roll of -2 equates to Light damage.

And, a roll of 0 equates to a Scratch.

But, what is a Scratch? Slight or Light damage?

Turn to the Master tables, page 183. See the one on Table 11 named "Wound"? For the ATV, look at the table named "Damage" on Table 11.

It says...

A slight wound is 1D damage.

A light wound is 2D damage.

The ATV suffered a scratch, which, on the table, is 1 point of damage.

So, Enri takes 1D damage.

Aia takes 2D damage.

The ATV takes 1 point of damage, which, as the example says, is of no real consequence and can be buffed out later.





Severity is only used in Diagnosis and Repair tasks, or when an effect overwhelms protection (such as when Bang damage overwhelms soundproofing to make a character deaf for a number of rounds equal to the Bang damage).

See the Battle Damage tasks on page 232 (and the Medical skill in the skills chapter) to see how Severity is used with tasks.



Wound severity is not used, as you say, to have a player roll damage, find severity, then roll different damage.

 

[Supplement Four]

The Severity chart is on page 232, centre bottom

That is the Diagnosis and Repair Severity chart. That's what the "D" and "R" part of the title of the table stand for--Diagnosis and Repair.

See "The Problem" paragraph a the top of that page.




If you want to randomly determine how screwed up something is, you roll 1D on the R D Severity chart. That will give you a Severity range. Then, you roll the indicated dice to determine Severity.

For example, if the ATV is broken, I can roll 1D on the D R Severity table. I get a 3. That means Severity is difficult, which is 3D.

See the "Let's Fix It!" task in the center of the page? That means that I would use this task to fix the broken ATV.

3D < Int + Skill

The "3D" difficulty comes from the Severity.

 

[arentol]

whatever gets through the Sealed rating is the amount of rounds that the target is unconscious. There is no mention of Severity so its applied directly from the Effect no need for a further damage roll. At least thats how i would do it within my interpretation of the combat system.

So with your method NPC's are immune to any effect-1 that doesn't cause Hit damage, but are very vulnerable to any that does do Hits?

That seems very arbitrary, and does not seem to work with the rules in any manner I can discern. I don't think the Hits/2 = Severity thing works the way you are interpreting it. The "hits" are the injury amount that has to exceed 10, not the Cx damage that is the result of the wound itself. Otherwise All non-Hit effects are working off a VERY different scale making them 1/6th as effective.

 

[Licheking]

So with your method NPC's are immune to any effect-1 that doesn't cause Hit damage, but are very vulnerable to any that does do Hits?

That seems very arbitrary, and does not seem to work with the rules in any manner I can discern. I don't think the Hits/2 = Severity thing works the way you are interpreting it. The "hits" are the injury amount that has to exceed 10, not the Cx damage that is the result of the wound itself. Otherwise All non-Hit effects are working off a VERY different scale making them 1/6th as effective.

No thats not what i was saying the NPC takes the same amount of damage from this as do any PC's i don't use the Mook rules (10+ = out, ignore 9 or less). Everyone in my games plays with the same set of combat rules and as i have said before they are the way i have interpreted them and they work for me and my group and for us feel very similar to MT with which we are all very familiar.

 

[David Johansen]

I had a realization about damage types today. Say you take a bullet-4 Pen-2 hit, if the Bullet-4 penetrates the armor you get no armor protection against the Pen-2.

Interesting, I'll have to think about this.

 

[cuTTer]

I had a realization about damage types today. Say you take a bullet-4 Pen-2 hit, if the Bullet-4 penetrates the armor you get no armor protection against the Pen-2.

Interesting, I'll have to think about this.

It's been mentioned before, one of the problems with interpreting the combat system is, IIRC, the lack of many (any?) examples of multiple effect weapons on just armour.

There are a couple of example with flamethrowers on p.214, but in both examples the target is unharmed, and as they are flamethrowers, the two effects are pitched against different resistances, Armour and Insulation.

 

[Licheking]

I have assigned different rules to each effect to make them distinguishable and useful for different circumstances.

Flash/Slash/Bang/Cold/EMP/Hot/Pain/Psi/Stench/Tranq/Magnetic/Sound/Gas and Vacc all remain the same.

Pen = Always rolled first and reduces the AV of the armour by the amount rolled
Bullet = is the standard
Corrode = does double armour degradation
Blast/Blow = Has a burst radius in squares equal to the value (The old MT Danger space)
Frag = No armour degradation on Combat Armour or Battledress, +1/die on damage that penetrates
Burn = Double healing times
Rad = Inflicts 1/die Rads, every 10 Rads reduces End/Sta/Vig
Elec = Affects Electronic equipment test Safety to see if they break down
Infection = No healing till the Infection is healed
Poison = Depends on the Poison
Grav = Whatever is rolled is taken from the armour value directly

Armour Degradation is normally whatever the weapons effect is, is taken off the armour rating.

 

[cuTTer]

I have assigned different rules to each effect to make them distinguishable and useful for different circumstances.

Flash/Slash/Bang/Cold/EMP/Hot/Pain/Psi/Stench/Tranq/Magnetic/Sound/Gas and Vacc all remain the same.

Pen = Always rolled first and reduces the AV of the armour by the amount rolled
Bullet = is the standard
Corrode = does double armour degradation
Blast/Blow = Has a burst radius in squares equal to the value (The old MT Danger space)
Frag = No armour degradation on Combat Armour or Battledress, +1/die on damage that penetrates
Burn = Double healing times
Rad = Inflicts 1/die Rads, every 10 Rads reduces End/Sta/Vig
Elec = Affects Electronic equipment test Safety to see if they break down
Infection = No healing till the Infection is healed
Poison = Depends on the Poison
Grav = Whatever is rolled is taken from the armour value directly

Armour Degradation is normally whatever the weapons effect is, is taken off the armour rating.

Interesting ideas LK.

 

[Supplement Four]

Pen = Always rolled first and reduces the AV of the armour by the amount rolled

I've been thinking along these lines, myself, Lich.

Pen = penetration, and if Pen achieved, then roll Bullet damage.

If Pen not listed, as with Bullet-4, maybe let the Player playing the attacker decide how many of the 4D are devoted to Penetration.

 

[David Johansen]

I'm wondering if the H1 system in Weapon Maker indicates that damage types are cumulative against like defense types. I know this runs contrary to the example in combat but it makes sense to me. So Bang-1 Blast-2 Bullet-1 would do 1d vs Sound Proof and 3d vs Armor. It would certainly work better and one might wonder if Blast hits everyone adjacent to the target and Pen hits armor before Bullet.

That's how I'd run it anyhow.

I know it's a bit late for a citation but I was looking at it today. On pages 252 the Hits (v1) column is clearly the sum of the D2 and D3 columns. I take that as clear evidence that at least some of the damage values are cumulative against armor though the example contradicts this for some effects.

On 241 in the second column under "USING WEAPONS" The Hit System V1 states that it is the npc resolution system for situations when speed of resolution is important. Which is a clear statement that the Hit System V1 is optional as is V2 actually. It needs to be explained more clearly in Combat but it is in the book.

 

[cuTTer]

I know it's a bit late for a citation but I was looking at it today. On pages 252 the Hits (v1) column is clearly the sum of the D2 and D3 columns. I take that as clear evidence that at least some of the damage values are cumulative against armor though the example contradicts this for some effects.

On 241 in the second column under "USING WEAPONS" The Hit System V1 states that it is the npc resolution system for situations when speed of resolution is important. Which is a clear statement that the Hit System V1 is optional as is V2 actually. It needs to be explained more clearly in Combat but it is in the book.

At this stage I'm just waiting for Don to relay Marc's intentions through the miracle of errata or commentary.

Ultimately everything in the rulebook is optional, but I'd still like to know what was actually intended.

 

[David Johansen]

I really think Marc could alleviate much of the ill will if he'd just speak up. I get that he doesn't do the web forum thing. But he's got FFE and he could just blog the commentary if he's not willing to take the heat.

 

[Licheking]

We could also have the same issues with starship weapons. The descriptions make out that each of the weapons are good at some things and worse at others, but when you get right down to it, the mount determines the damage and the individual weapon types don't have much effect other than determining what mounts you have to use.

For example the Beam Laser (TL-A) is described as being a more powerful version of the Pulse Laser (TL-9) but in game terms if they are both in a single turret they both do 1D damage, if they both go in a dual turret they both do 2D, a triple turret 3D and so on.

Now i have done to starship weapons what i did with personal weapons but i would like to know if there were supposed to be some rules to differentiate the weapons from each other.

 

[cuTTer]

We could also have the same issues with starship weapons. The descriptions make out that each of the weapons are good at some things and worse at others, but when you get right down to it, the mount determines the damage and the individual weapon types don't have much effect other than determining what mounts you have to use.

I never got past personal combat and it's issues.

For example the Beam Laser (TL-A) is described as being a more powerful version of the Pulse Laser (TL-9) but in game terms if they are both in a single turret they both do 1D damage, if they both go in a dual turret they both do 2D, a triple turret 3D and so on.

That just sounds like another case of flavour text not matching numbers, like the Snub descriptor in GunMaker.

Now i have done to starship weapons what i did with personal weapons but i would like to know if there were supposed to be some rules to differentiate the weapons from each other.

I think whatever rules there might have been in the past have been lost in the T5 iteration, but not knowing the difference between intention and oversight it can be frustrating trying to decide which.

If memory serves, and it probably doesn't, one used to be easier to hit with but did less damage, one was harder to hit with but did more damage.

 

[mechascorpio]

I really think Marc could alleviate much of the ill will if he'd just speak up. I get that he doesn't do the web forum thing. But he's got FFE and he could just blog the commentary if he's not willing to take the heat.

It would certainly be preferable if he would jump in, talk about the intentions of the questionable rules or datapoints. Then a number of eyeballs and smart people could help determine the solution, before it goes to "final" in the errata document. The number of months that have gone by with some of these issues is crazy. And the Kickstarter has been "over" for a month, save for the items that still haven't been completed and delivered, and I doubt that is the hold up.

 

[cuTTer]

It would certainly be preferable if he would jump in, talk about the intentions of the questionable rules or datapoints. Then a number of eyeballs and smart people could help determine the solution, before it goes to "final" in the errata document. The number of months that have gone by with some of these issues is crazy. And the Kickstarter has been "over" for a month, save for the items that still haven't been completed and delivered, and I doubt that is the hold up.

Well, today's email announced,

"But There’s More! We’re following up tomorrow with a separate email just about T5 (well, maybe some other stuff too)."

So fingers crossed.

 

[Murdoc]

Well, today's email announced,

"But There’s More! We’re following up tomorrow with a separate email just about T5 (well, maybe some other stuff too)."

So fingers crossed.

Was this a general e-mail? My e-mail is down right now so I'm not receiving anything. If it is something I should get, could you perhaps send it to me in a pm, please?