Hit System V1, V2 and V0

[Supplement Four]

There is a lot of speculation over the hit systems used in T5. Here, I am posting how I read T5 and what the V1, V2, V0 hit systems mean.

I think Hit System V0, seen on page 215, is a typo. It should read Hit System V2.

In another expression, V0 = V2.



Why? Look at page 241. V1 and V2 are described there.

Hit System V1 is the quick NPC damage system where damage of 9- is ignored and damage of 10+ is enough to take the NPC out of action.

Hit System V2 is the detailed hit system described on pages 214-215 (Detailed Effects, and Hit System V0).

Also note page 262. There, both hit systems are described with respect to Armor.



- GUNMAKER TABLES -

In the GunMaker tables, you'll see damage expressed on two types of columns. There's the "D" columns, and there's a "Hits (V1)" column.



For Hit System V2 (also mis-labled as V0), use the D column.

The D columns match up with the H columns. H describes the hit type, and D describes how much damage to throw for that hit type.

For example, on page 251, Pistols do Bullet damage (column H1), and the amount of Bullet damage is 1D (column D1).

Some weapons have multiple effects, so match H1 with D1, H2 with D2, H3 with D3, and so on.



For Hit System V1, use the Hits (V1) column.

The Hits (V1) column will give you the total dice for the weapon to roll against an NPC to determine if the total damage is 10+, irrespective of damage type.

For example, a basic Carbine does Bullet-1 damage. But, an Assault Carbine does Bang-1 and Blast-2 damage. The Hits (V1) column for the descriptor "Assault" on page 252 reads 3. This means that, for NPCs, forget about the type of damage (Bang and Blast) and just roll 3D. A result of 10+ takes the NPC out. A result of 9- is ignored.





- EDIT -

In sum, use the D columns against PCs, noting effects, using Hit System V2.

Use the Hits (V1) column against NPCs, forgetting effects, using Hit System V1.

 

[Supplement Four]

Brawling Damage

- Brawling Damage -


Look at page 260, at the Body Weapons table. This shows you that:

1. Human characters do Brawling damage equal to their STR ratings (column D1). So, every successful Brawling hit does a static amount of damage equal to the attacker's STR.

2. When fighting NPCs, the Hits (V1) column shows us that damage is equal to 1D.



Therefore, when an NPC strikes a PC (assuming both are human), the damage the PC takes is equal to the NPC's STR rating. The player of the PC can take the points any way he wants to accross C1, C2, C3 using the V2 Hit System (but there are no dice--consider damage to be dice all showing "1").

When a PC strikes an NPC, then damage is 1D*.




*Of course, there's the problem of never being able to roll 10+ to take out an NPC using Hit System V1. Until we get clarifcation from Marc or a T5 supplement, you may consider the T5 Fix rule in my sig.

 

[Murdoc]

The way things were worded on p215 and p241 seemed to imply to me that v2 was something different than v0, that v0 was some optional thing for people who like the old CT way of doing things. But checking pages 220, 222, and 225 do seem to cooroborate the idea that v0 is indeed what was intended for v2:

Apply Injury Exceeding Armor to Target. For example, Bullet-2 inflicts 2D against Armor-6. Roll 2D (=7): the Armor and listed Protections are destroyed. The Target receives 1 Hit.

Then:

If Injury is Hits or Cuts, Consult Hit Location Table For other Injury, go directly to Injury Table

Ok, so we go to the Injury table, which tells us things like "Total Hits / 2 = Severity" which is where I was getting stumped, because severity isn't anywhere I could see in the combat rules. However, continuing to look on p225 we see "The Types of Damage" which mostly tells us to apply hits to the characteristics, just like in v0. So I guess that is that. I guess "severity" is for healing only then (p165).

So my suggestion (should this maybe go in the errata thread?) is to change references to v0 to v2, make sure that the rules on the various pages I mentioned are clearly marked as being for v2, and be a bit more clear on the steps, either on each chart and page, or summarized somewhere, like the beginning of the Penetrate section. Oh yeah, and when mentioning severity, make sure it says what it is, that it is for healing purposes, and where the rules for that are.

All in all, T5 would be improved a lot if only there were simply more cross-references like this. Think of them like hyperlinks for paper. In fact, hyperlinks in the PDF version would be very handy, and not hard to do (along with a pdf-toc of course).

 

[Supplement Four]

Ok, so we go to the Injury table, which tells us things like "Total Hits / 2 = Severity" which is where I was getting stumped, because severity isn't anywhere I could see in the combat rules.

I believe that only damage is taken during combat. Once combat is over, and wound are being tended, that's when Hit Location and Wound Severity come into play.

Wound Severity is only used for the Healing tasks under the Medical skill.

But checking pages 220, 222, and 225 do seem to cooroborate the idea that v0 is indeed what was intended for v2:

Yes, page 225 is pretty clear: Hits to Characteristics are applied randomly* and in Dice amounts.



*Wait a minute! Randomly? I'm guessing that's talking about the First Hit rule???

So my suggestion (should this maybe go in the errata thread?) is to change references to v0 to v2...

I believe the only part of the book where "V0" is mentioned is on page 215. Am I wrong about that?

If not, and it is the only place, then it supports the thought that "V0" is a typo where "V2" should be used.

 

[Supplement Four]

Here's some questions.


1. Is there any rhyme or reason to the order of a weapon's effects in its longname (that's the part that tells us how much and what type of damage the weapon inflicts).

Does it matter?

They don't seem to be listed in alphabetical order, and I cannot see a connection with any list or table i the game. They don't seem to be listed by damage strength, either. On page 240, sometimes the more powerful effect is listed first, and sometimes the less powerful effect is listed.



2. When Armor is Penetrated, is it no longer useful as protection for that combat. If a weapon has two effects, like Pen and Bullet or Frag and Bullet, is armor considered whole for both effects? Or, if one penetrates, does that make it automatic for the other to penetrate?

For example, if a weapon has Frag-4 and Bullet-2 effects, and a successful attack is made against Ar=13: If the 4D of Frag damage penetrates, does that mean it's automatic for the 2D of Bullet damage to also penetrate (because the armor has been penetrated and no longer useful).

Or, does that mean to use Ar=13 vs. 4D. Then, Ar=13 vs. 2D, independently, where the Bullet-2 damage will never penetrate?

 

[Supplement Four]

-- EXAMPLE of the OP --

In the post directly above this one, I ask questions. I'm assuming here that each weapon effect is tested separately against armor, and that armor is considered whole for every effect even if one effect has penetrated.



Look at page 240, and consider this weapon and this armor:

1. TL 7 Assault Carbine Bang-1 Blast-2 Bullet-1

2. TL 9 Vacc Suit Ar=10 So=1



PC attacks NPC

A PC successfully hits an NPC. PC is using the Carbine, and the NPC is wearig the Vacc Suit.

For damage, the PC simply adds up all effects, rolls that amount of dice, and subtracts armor value. If the result is 10+, the NPC is out of action. If the result is 9-, then the damage is ignored. This is Hit System V1.

Roll 4D, looking for a total of 20+ to take the NPC out of action. Otherwise, ignore the damage.





NPC attacks PC

A NPC successfully hits a PC. NPC is using the Carbine, and the PC is wearing te Vacc Suit.

Roll 1D Bang damage against the Vacc Suit's level 1 soundproofing. If the result is 2+, then the PC is deaf for a number of rounds equal to how much the soundproofing was overwhelmed. For example, if a 3 was rolled on the Bang Die, then the PC is deaf for 2 combat rounds.

Roll 2D Blast damage against Ar=10. The Vacc Suit will be penetrated on a result of 11 or 12, giving the PC 1 or 2 points of damage (and a ruptured Vacc Suit).

Roll 1D Bullet damage against Ar=10. This cannot penetrate, so ignore it.

 

[David Johansen]

I'm wondering if the H1 system in Weapon Maker indicates that damage types are cumulative against like defense types. I know this runs contrary to the example in combat but it makes sense to me. So Bang-1 Blast-2 Bullet-1 would do 1d vs Sound Proof and 3d vs Armor. It would certainly work better and one might wonder if Blast hits everyone adjacent to the target and Pen hits armor before Bullet.

That's how I'd run it anyhow.

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm wondering if the H1 system in Weapon Maker indicates that damage types are cumulative against like defense types.

I don't think so.

I sure would like to see Marc post a combat example, though.

That's how I'd run it anyhow.

Doing that will make weapons more powerful as their penetration will be a lot more powerful.

With the weapon in the example above, the highest pentration comes from its Blast damage at 2D.

Doing it your way would increase that weapon's maximum penetration from 12 to 24.

And, remember, once armor is penetrated, it is no longer useful during that combat.

 

[David Johansen]

Sure but there's still lots of armor in the example it couldn't penetrate.

However if you look at the H1 columns in the gun maker and compare them to the H2, you'll find H1 is the total of the damages given in H2, which is what I was talking about.

 

[Supplement Four]

But, there will be many standard types of armor that will always be penetrated. Travellers will have to gear up like Marines in order to have armor that will withstand some weapon penetration.

H1 is defined on page 251. It's the first hit type of a weapon. H2 is the second hit type, not the total.

For example, all the base starting weapon types on page 251 only show H1--the base Hit Type.

On page 252, the descriptors can add more Hit Types.

Go back to 251 and pick Long Guns, Rifle. We see that H1 is Bullet, doing damage D1 of 2D.

Now, on 252, we decide to make our rifle into an assault rifle, that means teh weapon now has added two more hit types. Assault Rifle Bullet-2 Bang-1 Blast-2.

H2 is Bang. H3 is Blast. These are added damaged types.

 

[arentol]

I like this interpretation, V0 being a misprint of V2, because the V0 section is the ONLY part of book that mentions the actual effect of damage on player characters. If we assume this section is an "optional" rule as some people are doing then there is nothing to tell us what happens when a character is injured.

Without this section what happens to a character when one more of C1, C2, and/or C3 reduce to 0?

Nothing else in the book says anything about these things. The game doesn't even say anywhere else how a character dies, let alone goes unconscious from hits (it does from stun, but not "damage"). Without V0 being mandatory the game is 100% broke, with characters being entirely immortal (though useless with C1-C3 all at 0.... And we even have to assume this because the rules don't actually SAY that when a characteristic is temporarily reduced by injury the temporary value is used for skill rolls).

Related to this, there is a mechanism for determining where someone is hit on their body, but that mechanism goes nowhere. Aside from it reducing a normal hit to a scratch it appears to be entirely for color, with no in-game effect. What is that about?

So if Z0 isn't really meant to be Z2, then the game is missing a significant section on how wounds affect characters. Barring Errata adding a full section on how damage to a statistic actually affects a character I am treating Z0 as being Z2.

 

[Licheking]

it is in the rules how losing characteristics affects characters, 1 reduced to 0 is KO, 2 is severe wounds and 3 is death, but can't remember where i read it, will check my book when i get home from work.

 

[Supplement Four]

Related to this, there is a mechanism for determining where someone is hit on their body, but that mechanism goes nowhere. Aside from it reducing a normal hit to a scratch it appears to be entirely for color, with no in-game effect. What is that about?

Yeah, I think the hit location is for color. But, you could use it as part of combat. For example, you could get sticky about what part of a character is covered by armor. If he's wearing a flak vest, for example, then the Ar rating only applies to hits that cover that location (locations 6-8). Any other hit location does not benefit from the vest.

In addition, some are using a House Rule where only the hit location of the armor is destroyed, not the entire armor, after the armor is pierced. So, let's say armor covers torso, arms, and legs, but not the head. Then, the character is shot, the armor penetrated, so the right armor protection is no longer used--but the rest of the armor is intact.

The only official reason I can see for rolling on the hit location table, barring the color it brings to the game, is the graze result--which gives you minimum severity. So, where a bullet hit gives you a severity of total wounds divided in half, a hit location result of 11-12 would automatically make that severity 1.

 

[arentol]

it is in the rules how losing characteristics affects characters, 1 reduced to 0 is KO, 2 is severe wounds and 3 is death, but can't remember where i read it, will check my book when i get home from work.

I may have missed something, but given that I searched the entire PDF book for "wound", "dead", "death", "dies", "injury", and a host of other words related to death, wounding, and dying I doubt it. But keep in mind, I am not saying it isn't in there. Only that it is ONLY in the V0 combat section which many people think is optional due to how the first paragraph is phrased. I am just saying if it is optional, then as far as I can tell there are no rules at all for this stuff.

 

[Licheking]

you are right it is only mentioned in the first paragraph under V0 which is thought to be a misprint of V2 but upon reading it again it does say

Previous editions of Traveller have included a direct Hit versus Characteristic wounding mechanism which is still useful in some circumstances.

This would seem to imply that the T5 system doesn't work that way at all but in some different way. Maybe the way i originally read it, and the way i have been implementing it, which is that Hits that get through the armour are then translated into a severity rating and the severity rating determines how many dice of damage are done to various characteristics, or some other effect like blinding or deafening etc.

 

[Supplement Four]

This would seem to imply that the T5 system doesn't work that way at all but in some different way.

The other way it works is for NPCs with the V1 system.

 

[Licheking]

But the NPC wounding system is not the main way for implementing damage only for dealing with NPC's. Which means that wounding characteristics isn't the main way off dealing damage. At least it can be read that way until we hear from Marc i don't think anyway we implement damage in our own games really matter as long as we are having fun and our players are, which in my case is a big resounding yes.

 

[RobM]

I still believe Licheking's description is the correct intended implementation of the combat rules however I am reserving final judgement until I hear/read something solid from Marc or Don.

 

[Supplement Four]

I still believe Licheking's description is the correct intended implementation of the combat rules however I am reserving final judgement until I hear/read something solid from Marc or Don.

Wound Severity is only used for the Medical tasks.

If you mean that Bang damage that overcomes Soundproofing equals how many rounds the target is deaf, then we are in agreement. But, I don't think that's exactly what Lichelking is saying.

 

[RobM]

Sorry man but I think you are not correct.