Highest population density worlds

[sudnadja]

Looking through the TravellerMap data, there are some extremely densely populated worlds out there:

Jdiprqrafr	Gvur	B100A99-C	923	Interval[{8900.51,9889.45}]	Interval[{90000000000,99999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Roeknughroe	Gvur	B100A99-C	924	Interval[{8900.51,9889.45}]	Interval[{90000000000,99999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Uston	Daib	A100A98-E	902	Interval[{8900.51,9889.45}]	Interval[{90000000000,99999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Duncan	Alph	E100ACB-D	800	Interval[{7911.56,8900.51}]	Interval[{80000000000,89999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Fairday	Alph	E100A98-D	823	Interval[{7911.56,8900.51}]	Interval[{80000000000,89999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Cabot	Delp	D100A99-A	704	Interval[{6922.62,7911.56}]	Interval[{70000000000,79999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Hteai	Hlak	A100A88-E	724	Interval[{6922.62,7911.56}]	Interval[{70000000000,79999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Irap	Zaru	B100AA9-C	702	Interval[{6922.62,7911.56}]	Interval[{70000000000,79999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Stoner	Glim	B100ACB-E	710	Interval[{6922.62,7911.56}]	Interval[{70000000000,79999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Yeungo	Uist	D100A7A-D	703	Interval[{6922.62,7911.56}]	Interval[{70000000000,79999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Kidurge	Tren	B429A77-C	903	Interval[{5562.82,6180.91}]	Interval[{90000000000,99999999999}]	1.61789*10^7
Iysas	Iwah	E100A8A-B	502	Interval[{4944.73,5933.67}]	Interval[{50000000000,59999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Hermes	Daib	D100ABA-D	432	Interval[{3955.78,4944.73}]	Interval[{40000000000,49999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Isurgaa	Gash	B110A76-C	400	Interval[{3955.78,4944.73}]	Interval[{40000000000,49999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Ursalem	Delp	D100AA9-D	402	Interval[{3955.78,4944.73}]	Interval[{40000000000,49999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Askigaak	Dene	E549AA8-B	901	Interval[{3560.2,3955.78}]	Interval[{90000000000,99999999999}]	2.52795*10^7
Anise	Delp	D100A99-D	304	Interval[{2966.84,3955.78}]	Interval[{30000000000,39999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Faro	Alph	D100AAC-D	310	Interval[{2966.84,3955.78}]	Interval[{30000000000,39999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Iamir	Alph	C100AAB-F	304	Interval[{2966.84,3955.78}]	Interval[{30000000000,39999999999}]	1.01118*10^7
Yoweaserl	Eali	C100A78-B	315	Interval[{2966.84,3955.78}]	Interval[{30000000000,39999999999}]	1.01118*10^7

Worlds like Uston may be approaching 10,000 per square km of land area, that's higher than the density of Singapore, for the entire world (a size 1 world, it doesn't have that much land area to work with). Then there's Kidurge which is size 4 but much of the world taken up by hydrographics. Also, who named "Kidurge"? That sounds .. not quite right.

How do those worlds sustain their populations? Does everyone live in massive archeologies and the remainder of the land area devoted to food growth? Do referees handwave the enormous populations all into orbital structures? How much food needs to be imported per day if there is no land area available for food production?

 

[mike wightman]

Looking at your list of worlds the first thing that springs to mind is TL - they are all in the cheap fusion energy and artificial gravity range. You can build underground cities and farms.
Next starport type - A and B starports possibly indicate extensive orbital populations.

Water worlds just mean you build underground under the oceans, you build domed settlements on the ocean floor, and you have floating artificial island settlements.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Some are rogue planets, with their entire populations frozen for the journey.

 

[McPerth]

Water worlds just mean you build underground under the oceans, you build domed settlements on the ocean floor, and you have floating artificial island settlements.

At those TLs, and with so small planets, I guess most of them have extensive orbital facilities with people living there, aside from huge acrologies (helped too by the lack of atmosphere, so wind, and low gravity most those planets have)

I also wonder if some HigPop Asteroid Belts (e.g. Glisten, in spinwart Marches, or Serenderip Belt, in the Islands Cluster) could have even higher population density, depending on the number of planetoids really colonized and their size...

 

[sudnadja]

Some are rogue planets, with their entire populations frozen for the journey.

I should have included the star list, none of these worlds are listed without a star:

Jdiprqrafr	B100A99-C	923	M4 III	Interval[{8900.51,9889.45}]
Roeknughroe	B100A99-C	924	M4 III	Interval[{8900.51,9889.45}]
Uston	A100A98-E	902	F4 V	Interval[{8900.51,9889.45}]
Duncan	E100ACB-D	800	G3 V M9 V	Interval[{7911.56,8900.51}]
Fairday	E100A98-D	823	M3 V	Interval[{7911.56,8900.51}]
Cabot	D100A99-A	704	M2 V	Interval[{6922.62,7911.56}]
Hteai	A100A88-E	724	K8 IV M1 V	Interval[{6922.62,7911.56}]
Irap	B100AA9-C	702	K0 V	Interval[{6922.62,7911.56}]
Stoner	B100ACB-E	710	A3 V	Interval[{6922.62,7911.56}]
Yeungo	D100A7A-D	703	F2 V	Interval[{6922.62,7911.56}]
Kidurge	B429A77-C	903	F5 VI	Interval[{5562.82,6180.91}]
Iysas	E100A8A-B	502	K0 V M4 V M7 V	Interval[{4944.73,5933.67}]
Hermes	D100ABA-D	432	G6 II M6 V	Interval[{3955.78,4944.73}]
Isurgaa	B110A76-C	400	G8 V M6 V G8 V M8 V	Interval[{3955.78,4944.73}]
Ursalem	D100AA9-D	402	M2 V K0 V	Interval[{3955.78,4944.73}]
Askigaak	E549AA8-B	901	M1 V	Interval[{3560.2,3955.78}]
Anise	D100A99-D	304	K2 IV	Interval[{2966.84,3955.78}]
Faro	D100AAC-D	310	M0 V	Interval[{2966.84,3955.78}]
Iamir	C100AAB-F	304	M2 V M0 V	Interval[{2966.84,3955.78}]
Yoweaserl	C100A78-B	315	K2 V	Interval[{2966.84,3955.78}]

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

They're travelling very slow. Still within a parsec of a star.

 

[sudnadja]

At those TLs, and with so small planets, I guess most of them have extensive orbital facilities with people living there, aside from huge acrologies (helped too by the lack of atmosphere, so wind, and low gravity most those planets have)

I also wonder if some HigPop Asteroid Belts (e.g. Glisten, in spinwart Marches, or Serenderip Belt, in the Islands Cluster) could have even higher population density, depending on the number of planetoids really colonized and their size...

Yes, I didn't attempt to do the population density calculation for asteroid belt worlds because there's no way to determine from the map data what the surface area, or living area, of that asteroid belt might be.

Vleeman is a size 0 world with a population >= 90 billion:
Vleeman 90 billion Olde A000A67-E
Antares 80 billion Anta A000ADA-D
Scathe 70 billion Alph A000A99-E
Deldrifl 70 billion Tien B000A78-D
Water 60 billion Alph B000ADE-E
Zolag 40 billion Mesh C000A87-E
Happin Belt 10 billion Forn B000AAD-F
Uo 10 billion Lish B000A98-F
Cambria 9 billion Solo B0009BF-E
Boqueron 9 billion Solo A0009A8-D
Tohira 9 billion Spic C0009BA-8
Hacourti 9 billion Vang C0009BC-B
Umada 8 billion Amdu C0009CA-9
Raguegh 8 billion Anta B0009AA-F
Ikabi 8 billion Dagu C0009DE-B
Yohkui 8 billion Dark A000978-E
Gamov 8 billion Dias C0009EF-D
Glisten 8 billion Spin A000986-F
Verstand 8 billion Thet B000977-A
Jugartha 8 billion Thet A000958-D
Inchusela 8 billion Vang C000967-A
Tier 8 billion Verg C000978-D
Gulurkhi 7 billion Daib C0009A7-D
Starn 7 billion Dene B000996-F
Uushamshiir 6 billion Gash B0009DC-B
Carrill 6 billion Reav A0009AE-E
Tern 6 billion Spic C0009BB-B
Vidbrianch 6 billion Tien C000954-D
Gambda 5 billion Alph C000963-D
Oriah 5 billion Alph B0009A6-E
Shaid Mamke 5 billion Daib D00097C-B
Kawao 5 billion Hlak B000946-D
Castor 5 billion Solo A0009AB-C
Lode 5 billion Zaru B000944-E
Caldron 4 billion Alph E0009BE-B
Uumirsa 4 billion Dagu B000954-F
Rughl 4 billion Ilel B000979-F
Haraffii 4 billion Lish C00098C-D
Faarzgaen 4 billion Prov B0009EJ-E
Diln 4 billion Spic E00099C-B
I'sred*nixtu 3 billion Beyo A00098D-C
Khase 3 billion Gash C000999-C
Ants 3 billion Ziaf B0009BD-C
Eyahtoaau 2 billion Afaw B000997-D
Petruchio 2 billion Cano C000984-9
Taraeng 2 billion Gvur B00098C-A
Serendip Belt 2 billion Reft A000949-C
Eninsish 1 billion Empt C000989-9
Akushis 1 billion Gush E0009AC-B
Akhstuti Ae 1 billion Tugl B000950-E
Varen's Planet 1 billion Vang A000999-D
Circulus 1 billion Vang B000996-A



Edit: perhaps actually more readable with integer names for populations and in JSON.
Edit again: nope.

 

[Timerover51]

A good reason why I have a lot of die modifiers for population based on planet data. Small planets and high populations just do not compute for me. The same goes for atmospheres of A or higher, None, or Trace, or a very high hydrographic percentage.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Looking at your list of worlds the first thing that springs to mind is TL - they are all in the cheap fusion energy and artificial gravity range

In addition tall, tall arcologies as the one depicted in the old CT JTAS article. Can;t recall the name at the moment.

 

[SanDragon]

Azun, Solomani Rim sector, Ultima subsector, hex 0809, B 576 ABC - B Hi In Pz

JTAS #15

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

 

[sudnadja]

Very nice.

How tall are they supposed to be?

 

[GypsyComet]

Seismically unstable worlds would probably not end up with that many inhabitants, so the option of building vertically into the planet would be popular. Airless rocks are not going to build horizontally as that is really vulnerable.

I will admit to being a fan of Heinlein's description in "The Menace From Earth" of one of the cities of Luna: a big vertical hole drilled into the surface then capped. The walls of the hole, a hundred or more feet apart, are cut in one or more long spiral galleries top to bottom, with elevators placed at intervals. The galleries then provide the front door space for a huge number of homes, businesses, and factory spaces radiating outward. At some point you move over a few km and start a new one.

The open space up the central bore provides air volume, room for hanging gardens, and recreational spaces for man-powered flight.

 

[infojunky]

Looking at that list one thing pops to mind is the Glitter Band of Alastair Reynold's Revelation Space...

In which the term Habitat Ghetto comes to mind. In which it is a cluster of HIGH population Habitats orbiting a common point.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Very nice.

How tall are they supposed to be?

Three kilometers high.

 

[sudnadja]

Looking at that list one thing pops to mind is the Glitter Band of Alastair Reynold's Revelation Space...

In which the term Habitat Ghetto comes to mind. In which it is a cluster of HIGH population Habitats orbiting a common point.

The Glitter Band supposedly had a population of about 100 million, meaning it would be a population 8 world (and a lower range 8 at that) in Traveller terms. The highest of the list I posted has 900-1000 times more people - if they were Glitter Band sized habitats there would be 9-10 million of them rather than 10,000. It's easy to forget the scale of the Traveller universe, you would never need to leave a system like that. ~100 billion people, 10 million different government types (presuming one per station, the Glitter Band would certainly be considered "Balkenized"), no jump drive required.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen a high population world described in the Revelation Space universe yet. Chasm City was dense, but a fairly small area so the population wouldn't be that much and it was the only significant habitation on Yellowstone, so it's likely that the Glitter Band made up the majority of the population there.

Sky's Edge seemed low population, Resurgam must have been a few hundred thousand at most.

 

[infojunky]

The Glitter Band supposedly had a population of about 100 million, meaning it would be a population 8 world (and a lower range 8 at that) in Traveller terms. The highest of the list I posted has 900-1000 times more people - if they were Glitter Band sized habitats there would be 9-10 million of them rather than 10,000. It's easy to forget the scale of the Traveller universe, you would never need to leave a system like that. ~100 billion people, 10 million different government types (presuming one per station, the Glitter Band would certainly be considered "Balkenized"), no jump drive required.

See, now I am going to have to dig back into those stories, or just set down and crunch the numbers but probably both. 10k Habitats with populations in the 100k range still only puts it in the Pop 9 range. (the pop numbers I remember off the top of my head is in the 100,000 per habitat, thus a little more digging).

As for government type Balkanized is a route though a aggressive Democracy could be argued for as well.

Come to think of it, I haven't seen a high population world described in the Revelation Space universe yet. Chasm City was dense, but a fairly small area so the population wouldn't be that much and it was the only significant habitation on Yellowstone, so it's likely that the Glitter Band made up the majority of the population there.

Sky's Edge seemed low population, Resurgam must have been a few hundred thousand at most.

Most of those works tends to level me with the idea that a post-Industrial population expansion model might not be a more appropriate. Almost world Reynold's describes I have a hard time seeing replacement rates over 2.2 or so.

 

[Condottiere]

Japan’s lunar orbiter discovers moon cave potentially suitable for use as shelter
KYODO
OCT 18, 2017

Observation data collected by Japan’s lunar orbiter Kaguya has shown that a cave stretching some 50 km (over 30 miles) exists on the moon that could provide shelter for astronauts in the future, the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency said Wednesday.

The cave could protect astronauts from radiation from the sun and cosmic rays when they build a base for exploration, the agency said.

The cave, believed to be a lava tube created about 3.5 billion years ago, sits beneath an area with a group of volcanic domes called the Marius Hills, it said.

The lunar orbiter initially found a hole about 50 meters in diameter and depth. Further surveys of the area with radio waves discovered the lava tube, the agency, also known as JAXA, said.

 

[sudnadja]

See, now I am going to have to dig back into those stories, or just set down and crunch the numbers but probably both. 10k Habitats with populations in the 100k range still only puts it in the Pop 9 range. (the pop numbers I remember off the top of my head is in the 100,000 per habitat, thus a little more digging).

As for government type Balkanized is a route though a aggressive Democracy could be argued for as well.



Most of those works tends to level me with the idea that a post-Industrial population expansion model might not be a more appropriate. Almost world Reynold's describes I have a hard time seeing replacement rates over 2.2 or so.

I think it’s more like 10k habitats with 10k each. I don’t know where the reference sources from but I took that number from this page: http://revelationspace.wikia.com/wiki/Glitter_Band

Yellowstone’s system (Epsilon Eridani, or Shulimik in Traveller) also has the conjoined population, and in traveller terms they should be added, but I got the impression the population count of the conjoined was less than a million. I don’t know why I think that, though.

 

[khadaji2002]

Here's my take on low size planets with very high populations:

First, assuming a high tech level the various ideas already discussed (arcologies, underwater cities, etc.) would be put in place. I visited Nanjing for 10 days a few years ago. It is amazing how many people can be fit into a given cubic space with the proper tech.

Second, what are the resources in the system? There has to be something that keeps that many people in one spot. Is it on a trade route and is the central brokerage point? Are there rare minerals people mine in the hopes of getting wealthy?

If either the tech level or the resources aren't there then IMTU I change the population value to something that makes more sense to me. If both are there? I've seen places where people are piled on top of each other. They were born there, are happy there, and aren't going to move unless they start starving so the population keeps growing. Inertia alone can account for a lot of those numbers.