High Tech Babarians and Low Tech Marvels...

[THHeinrichT1@aol.com]

An IMTU Artikel:

Living out existent technologies to the fullest, not an easy task if you ask me.

Imagine a world, in which the inventions of Da Vinci and many other visionaries were introduced in their time of existenz. How might our world look like?

On the other side, imagine a world in which technologies are discarded because the next thing just might be a better club, gun or toy.

Those are two extremes, which might come up for truly alien societies.

Two examples:

TERRA Alternative Alpha: A quasi Utopian society based on enrichment of the citizens life. Technologie is broadened and every possible use of an invention is created. The Technology might by 4 or 5 CT but they invented Interplanetary Flight, they also found the Undersea an cozy and nice surrounding. The deserts are fertile agrarian zones and the poles are fully explored, there are no white spots on the topographic cards and each invention gains a place in the universal hall of fame... even if it is about new ways of using flintstone. The people a harmonius and likeable, outside cultures are gregarously gracious embraced.

TERRA Alternative Beta: Mankind on it's worst side, Warmongers all along. After the centuries of Warlords there was no time of peace. The only surving entity after the fifth Planetary War the Solomani spread out further into the stars, cultural differences are no more since they are all equalised. They are hightech people, but their culture didn't evolve a along. After five Milenia of incessant wars they didn't even know their once peaceful origins. Solomani equals the dark harbinger of death and destruction in the known universe. They know, they are superior in firepower and gladly show it all around. A Planet, who isn't gladly joining the fray is oblitterated by antimatter torpedoes and gravitation bombs, a firepower which even the ancients weren't able to unleash.

Those are two extremes. Both are very unlikely. But Imagine a stoneage civilisation who invented through cut quarz or beryll stones lenses, what use could they make of them. Aside from eyeglasses, there would be early telescopes, glases for magnification would become possible. Furthermore fire would become much more common. Perhaps they would also introduce intrical potteries with collored quarzes and colored stones. Since Quarz could be much sharper than Flintstone they could be used as serrated arrowheads. And so on... A society which tries to make best use of all it's resources would try to use any invention or discovery in many different ways, not just one.

Or on the other side, a culture with a relative high technology, but every invention is used in only one possible way (Think of the Incas, who didn't use wheels because of religious attribute of the son of the sun ). They aren't interested in what else a flintston could be used, they are good blades, that's all you need to know. A Steam-Engine? Well yes, of course, but milling is still done by watercraft.

There are no limitations to what a tech level might be.

Furthermore, broad use of technology extends the knowledge over the limit of the normal techniques which would under normal circumstances be available to a technology.

With regards

Torsten

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Starbound:
Living out existent technologies to the fullest, not an easy task if you ask me.

Torsten,

You're right, twisting tech levels is a great deal of fun and primitive does not equal stupid. If you're a subscriber, there's a JTAS article about the latter you should really read.

(Think of the Incas, who didn't use wheels because of religious attribute of the son of the sun ).

Sorry, that's an urban myth. It does illustrate something about technology you should keep in mind - Not every technology is useful in every society. While this may be do to cultural mores, it usually comes about thanks to enviromental reasons.

The Inca had no need for the wheel because they had no draft animals, because the terrain they lived in meant that the wheel did not impart any great benefits, and because the way their society was organized (a sort of communist monarchy) meant that there was plentiful labor supply. There was no religious prohibition, you're confusing actual history with a Poul Anderson short story.

Another example of a technology being known and not being used is that of bricks in Britain. After the Roman pull-out in the 400s, bricks were not made in Britain until the late 1600s. Why? Well, it wasn't because the knowledge was lost. It was due to the fact that the locals didn't build in brick and it wasn't worth anyone's time making them. What little number of bricks were used were imported from the Continent.

Your ideas regarding the craft abilities of paleolithic societies are good ones. We even have real world examples. Google 'Jomon pottery'. A pre-Ainu, pre-Japanese culture in the Japanese islands made exquisite pottery of which only a few examples survive. The pots are old too, something like ~2000 years BCE old IIRC.

There is also the example of the Portland Vase, although the culture in question was an iron working one. It is a piece of glass work that was found in a Roman grave in Britain. The techniques used to make it were not rediscovered until the 19th Century.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[THHeinrichT1@aol.com]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Starbound:
Living out existent technologies to the fullest, not an easy task if you ask me.

Torsten,

You're right, twisting tech levels is a great deal of fun and primitive does not equal stupid. If you're a subscriber, there's a JTAS article about the latter you should really read.

Could you please tell me which issue of the JTAS it was since I have 1 to 24 and the Challenge Journals, i didn't found them there.

(Think of the Incas, who didn't use wheels because of religious attribute of the son of the sun ).

Sorry, that's an urban myth. It does illustrate something about technology you should keep in mind - Not every technology is useful in every society. While this may be do to cultural mores, it usually comes about thanks to enviromental reasons.

The Inca had no need for the wheel because they had no draft animals, because the terrain they lived in meant that the wheel did not impart any great benefits, and because the way their society was organized (a sort of communist monarchy) meant that there was plentiful labor supply. There was no religious prohibition, you're confusing actual history with a Poul Anderson short story.

Sorry, i didn't read this short story from Poul Anderson, if you could give me the title i will gladly search for it. I did instead relate on an articel of the journal Kadath which is an french archeological and anthropological magazine. They too did point out, that there were several reasons, but the most stringend logic had to do with their sun-worship.

Another example of a technology being known and not being used is that of bricks in Britain. After the Roman pull-out in the 400s, bricks were not made in Britain until the late 1600s. Why? Well, it wasn't because the knowledge was lost. It was due to the fact that the locals didn't build in brick and it wasn't worth anyone's time making them. What little number of bricks were used were imported from the Continent.

Your ideas regarding the craft abilities of paleolithic societies are good ones. We even have real world examples. Google 'Jomon pottery'. A pre-Ainu, pre-Japanese culture in the Japanese islands made exquisite pottery of which only a few examples survive. The pots are old too, something like ~2000 years BCE old IIRC.


Jep, these issues are known to me. Still I have more. For example the "Senegambian Megalithic Monument Complex" or "Incas Use of Bismuth" ... Furthermore the once quoted "European History gets even Older" (From Science Magazine, 246:28, 1989)

There is also the example of the Portland Vase, although the culture in question was an iron working one. It is a piece of glass work that was found in a Roman grave in Britain. The techniques used to make it were not rediscovered until the 19th Century.

Once again yes... Furthermore there were several other things, that were rediscovered.

Have fun,
Bill </font>[/QUOTE]Sigh... The problem with many american finds is the inherit heresy agains the clovis theory.

Regd.

Torsten

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Starbound:
Could you please tell me which issue of the JTAS it was since I have 1 to 24 and the Challenge Journals, i didn't found them there.

Torsten,

Sorry, the JTAS article I was referring to is at the on-line JTAS magazine at the SJGames site. If memory serves, there is a 'Twisting Tech Levels' article in the old print JTAS magazine. The art showed a Roman legionnaire standing beside a cannon.

Sorry, i didn't read this short story from Poul Anderson, if you could give me the title i will gladly search for it.

It's one of the David Falkhayn stories, when he's still an apprentice and before he hooked up with Solar Spices & Liquors. His ship needs a huge part of it's power plant replaced, limped to a world where an emergency cache of parts has been previously placed, and manage to ground the ship a few hundred km from the cache only to find that the locals don't use wheels for religious reasons.

I did instead relate on an articel of the journal Kadath which is an french archeological and anthroposophical magazine. They too did point out, that there were several reasons, but the most stringend logic had to do with their sun-worship.

Sorry no. Along with warships, the history of technology, and strong drink, I'm a bit of a pre-Columbian crank. The Incas did worship the sun as part of their religious life, but they also worshipped mountains (ever seen those sacrificial mummies found on Andes mountain tops?), their royalty, and other objects. The Sun was just one of many venerated objects. They didn't outlaw the wedge because it looked like a mountain did they?

There have been other sun-worshipping civilizations in the past and none of them outlawed the wheel for religious reasons. Pinning the 'lack' of Incan wheels on a single factor; religious scruples, betrays a lack of informed immagination. Something I don't find surprising in a French academic journal, by the way. The Gauls have yet to truly shake off the dead hand of Descarte and the whole Cartesian 'single actor' schtick. Stringent logic doesn't work in sociology, humans are affected by too many factors to blame things on just one.

Sigh... The problem with many american finds is the inherit heresy agains the clovis theory.

I fully expect Clovis to be either overturned or modified in my lifetime. There have been many suspected pre-Clovis sites tested over the last decade. While none have so far passed scrutiny, I feel sure that one will sooner or later.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[THHeinrichT1@aol.com]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
I fully expect Clovis to be either overturned or modified in my lifetime. There have been many suspected pre-Clovis sites tested over the last decade. While none have so far passed scrutiny, I feel sure that one will sooner or later.


Have fun,
Bill [/QB]

I do agree... It would be better if it would be as fast as posible.

Still I do think, that US Archeologist do have sometimes the creationist bend of their school ...

Greets

Torsten

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Starbound:
I do agree... It would be better if it would be as fast as posible.

Torsten,

Do you want it done fast or do you want it done right?

Still I do think, that US Archeologist do have sometimes the creationist bend of their school ...

Well, as long as we're slinging national insults... I'm sure American archeologists are creationists in the same way German archeologists goose step to their dig sites. Right?


Bill

 

[THHeinrichT1@aol.com]

*LOL*

True... But did you have recent contact with one?

It also wasn't an insult... rather a state of fact ...

 

[THHeinrichT1@aol.com]

Originally posted by thrash:
My wife is a professional archaeologist -- hence, I frequently interact with the American archaeology community. In my experience, your "state of fact" is completely false: I do not, either personally or by reputation, know of a single person who fits that description.

I think you misread something...

Look closer .

For a little help:

Quted:

Well, as long as we're slinging national insults... I'm sure American archeologists are creationists in the same way German archeologists goose step to their dig sites. Right?

BTW. I am professional Programmer, it wouldn't insult me, that i couldn't hang a picture on the wall. Which is a regular term here in germany if you are standing in front of a person with a higher degree than highschool *lol*... so never mind.

Or said on more understandable terms: If you are on college you can cook no porridge ...

Or "Crafts are paved with gold"... Whoever might that believe.

Best Wishes... and a big grin .

Torsten