• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

High Law and Huscarles

TheBrain

SOC-11
Does anybody know if in OTU if part of imperial high law deals with the question of an imperial noble's huscarles, namely do they have total or partial exemption from the local law level's weapons restrictions?
omega.gif
 
Not sure i have seen this anywhere.

I imagine if the noble is acting in the name of the Imperium (i.e. imperial intervention of some kind), his personnal troops are treated the same as any other imperial personnel. i.e. He gets the job done and then has to answer for the consequences, and if everything went okay, an local protests would be quietly ignored.

For general bodyguard duties of a noble staying on planet, the local authorities would probably grant a licence for discrete weapons and there use in the appropriate situations and hope no-one notices / the guards are never called into action (just like certain state visits when the visiting ruler brings their own guards). Some worlds will refuse on the basis that their security forces can do the job.

Hope that helps

Cheers
Richard
 
TheBrain,

I haven't seen an OTU reference.

IMTU, it would depend. ;)

Huscarles could not, under *most* circumstances contravene a world's law level.

The exceptions being:

1)The noble is personally travelling. The noble is entitled to be accompanied by a reasonable retinue of assistants *and* Huscarles, *all* of whom may be reasonably armed. On worlds with law levels high enough to ban the armaments carried, those armaments will have to be concealed, and if they can't be concealed on the body of the Huscarle, wouldn't be acceptable to carry. "Reasonable" numbers is left up the individual GM.

IMTU: If the Sector Duke shows up, "reasonable" for him may be a force the size of the US President's on-the-road Secret Service group; and his influence may even allow for a few light military grav vehicles.

Reasonable is modified when the noble must travel, on official business of the Imperium only, into an active warfare area. Then the Huscarles will be able to dress in outright military gear and carry heavy weaponry. Most nobles dislike this, as unavoidable accidents have a way of happening in such circumstances. If a noble travels into a warfare area on unofficial business, that is the noble's own choice and risk, and no special privileges beyond standard weapons carriage are permitted.

Violations of these laws are handled on a case by case basis, but usually represent a chance for the Member World to extract some concession out of the Imperium (usually tax rebates, bases, x-boat route realignment, etc.) in return for not throwing the "book" at the noble. Imperial Nobles who are "over" the violating noble are likely to be, displeased, at the offender. Major snubs in the noble social world are certain to be applied. Fines are also likely.


2)The Member World is in violation of its Membership Charter and the terms of MTU's Limited Member World Autonomy rules. However, IMTU, it's highly unlikely that any noble with Huscarles sufficient to handling this task would use them in this situation, it's a job for the IN/IM.


3)The noble in question could send the Huscarles in if there were warfare operations underway on the Member World, and in that event the Huscarles would qualify as Mercenary forces. However, if the Huscarles were killed in battle, the noble could publicly say or do nothing, any retaliation would have to be done secretly and never found be out about. If the Huscarles were captured and there were no arrangements for removal, or if the Member World's government wasn't obligated to comply with the removal agreement, at best various Imperial Officials could plead for the lives or release of the Huscarles (depending on their impending fate), try to apply secret pressure, etc., but would have no public direct authority to make the Member World give them up.
 
IMTU, Huscarls are considered part of the Imperial Army and/or Marines... (Certain units draw IM Personell)

Most Huscarles IMTU are drawn from active duty units of the local armies and/or marines.

A huscarles unit is NOT a collection of bodyguards, but a battlefield unit which happens to be personally attached to the Nobleman.

Therefore, IMTU, Huscarles units are treated as anny extraplanetary Imperial Army Force: orders determine armaments. The Bodyguards unit, depending upon the noble, might be Cutlasses and BD-15, or TL15 Tailored Vacc Suits, or just plain suits, and with at least one LL lower weapons allowed than the local LL, usually about LL4,,,

But, during hostilities, theDuke of a subsector can almost be counted on to equip his huscarles to the best IM Infantry standard (IF he has a TL 14+ world), and probably even into BD. (Note: Not all IM's are BD Equipped. Just look at AHL... or Mercenary, Bk 4. Or the more than MCr2 per suit in MT for the TL15 IM BD)
 
The GURPS Traveller Nobles book could have an explanation of how the Rules of War relate to Huscarles.
As far as local law level and Huscarles - how does the law level of a planet relate to the weapons carried by the military? I've always thought the law level only affects civilians.
 
My take is based on the idea that they can be "Imperialised", which I took to be the equivilant of "Federalised" in the US context. That would put them on par with US National Guard units, which are equiped by the federal government, but manned by the state. Since a National Guard unit would trump local law when the state governor sends them into a town I would say the same goes for these troops.
 
IMTU, the Right of Escort is a holding, like a Starship or a business the noble controls... it is usually a 10 to 20 man squad dependent upon the situation and the rank of the noble... the only stipulation is that this must be a full dress uniformed guard, IE, highly visible... The guards, while in the confines of the Imperium transcend the Law Level of any Imperial World.

Any number of "Secret Service" types can be employed... but they must be discreet and well behaved... it reflects badly onthe noble if they aren't...
 
I think this discussion highlights a problem in how government works in Traveller.

On one hand there are world treaties and high law, on the other hand there are enfeoffed nobles with private armies and the personal responsibility to protect the Imperium. The two, even if they don't contradict, are in unhappy tension.

The world treaty idea creates 'city states' out of every world - in that each world is a legal entity of the Imperium with its own rights and responsibilities. Yet at the same time there is a hereditary system of nobility with responsibility for a world (Marquis), Cluster (Count) or subsector/sector (Duke). Imperial government is both feudal(ish) and confederal at the same time.

The history of the European city states and the nobility indicates that this is a recipe for disaster and civil war.

I have considered the options from Western history and I think the model for Imperial government

1. 'True' Feudal (9th-14th Century Europe) - Military service to superior in return for hereditary land tenure. The concept of the 'state' not developed as personal ties prevail.

2. Bastard Feudal (14th-16th Century England) - Service (military or otherwise) to superior in return for financial or honour benefit (nobles tend to club together as an patronage 'affinity').

3. Bureacratic State run by honour nobility (17th-19th Century pre revolutionary Europe) - Nobles are enobled by purchasing titles or because they are appointed on the basis of merit or patronage, they answer to a developed concept of law and state.

4. Federal State (post revolution USA, authority of the governour but with titles as garnish). Law and concept of state prevail over personal ties. Duty and allegiance to the state as an abstract entity.

The only one that makes real sense to me as a model for the Imperial system of nobility as discussed on these boards is 3: the bureaucratic state with an honour noble system. Otherwise the niceties of world charters, the ministry of justice, Imperial High Law etc (all things added later to Traveller) are going to seriously conflict with the role of the nobility as feudal lords.

In that case Huscarles are regular soldiers in Imperial service on detachment to a noble as part of the honour system.

I look forward to GT Nobles as I personally think the whole thing is a mess created by different authors singing from different hymn sheets.
 
Interesting... the only thing I would point out, is that for the most part, these Citystates would rely on outside trade and commerce to remain viable and competitive on the big map...

If, for example, you controlled a Star System and were engaging in acts frowned on by the Imperium (or even your immediate superior) the recourse would be a blockade/trade embargo/Red Zone the System. Which would spell bad times for the noble that has led his world to that state.

Loyalty is one thing, but pitting the resources of a limited Noble Holding against the Imperium would be suicide... I think it would be caught long before it got to that point.

Which is why in my game, there are no "Domains" only Sector Dukes appointed after careful consideration and psychological screening. They are loyal to the Imperium, and also tend to watch one another closely... Holding a sector is a lot of power, but holding a Domain is too much power.
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Interesting... the only thing I would point out, is that for the most part, these Citystates would rely on outside trade and commerce to remain viable and competitive on the big map...

If, for example, you controlled a Star System and were engaging in acts frowned on by the Imperium (or even your immediate superior) the recourse would be a blockade/trade embargo/Red Zone the System. Which would spell bad times for the noble that has led his world to that state.

Loyalty is one thing, but pitting the resources of a limited Noble Holding against the Imperium would be suicide... I think it would be caught long before it got to that point.
<nods head>

Yes, I believe this as well. Most of the time, if a noble started doing any of the things necessary to launch a rebellion (of any kind), it would be picked up by various agencies/personnel). Most of the time.

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Which is why in my game, there are no "Domains" only Sector Dukes appointed after careful consideration and psychological screening. They are loyal to the Imperium, and also tend to watch one another closely... Holding a sector is a lot of power, but holding a Domain is too much power.
Arbellatra or her heirs agreed with you on that one, because in the OTU they stripped the Archdukes of all their power until the Domains had no power (meaningful power, anyway). They raised no taxes, had no role in the IN, and the Archdukes were figurehead nobles who could not order Sector Dukes or Sector IB Offices or Sector IN to do anything. So, holding one of the Domains in the OTU is no power at all.

I agree with the part about screening and testing Sector Dukes, but the appointment part . . . how often can that happen? Maybe I'm just misinterpreting what I'm reading. Are you saying that designated heirs are screened and appointed, or that new candidates are selected for Sector Duke, and are then screened and appointed?


IMTU: Nobles appoint an heir, and have a backup Succession Line (it's required as a part of the duties of Noblesse Oblige, failure to maintain one can result in serious punishment; although, for security reasons, they are often kept quite secret) attempt to assume the throne, but they have to meet a couple of requirements. First, an old-fashioned approval by three medical and three psychiatric doctors (TL-13 minimum) for physical and mental fitness (for Ruling Subsector and Sector Nobles, the doctors must all be from different worlds). Second, minimum education (and not-so-subtle indoctrination) in the form of graduation from an Imperial Studies College (and that includes the heirs for Emperor, as well).
 
IMTU, any noble position could be heredetary, but in order to become a Sector Duke (and a potential Emperor... not your average job!) you would have to be deemed fit to be in the position by the Upper Peerage, and the Emperor himself, who's decision it is, ultimately...

This would be an extensive Background check, Economic check, Military Check, and Psychological Check.. I think it would be realtively easy to do this, as there would only be so many people that are cut out for the job... it would not serve the Imperium to put a Napoleon or Hitler on a Sector Throne...

I think it more than likely that Sector Dukes would be from Hereditary Families, as they would have the experience of Government from growing up around it... Less common would be Honor Nobles (Admirals and the like) rising to the rank of Sector Duke, as these people more often than not have Ambition to Burn... which is why IMTU, the Rebellion would never happen... Dulinor would have been sent to a "Hot" Frontier to work off his discontent with the Imperium long ago... Patton and McArthur were brilliant Generals, but they would've been lousy Presidents... the best picks for Sector Dukes are those that are all rounders.. having a good mix of Politics and Military expertise...
 
{Please do not take this as political comment}

My lord Baron - Is it fair to describe your Imperium as running like an alternative USA stripped of its egalitarian ideology - i.e. one that is a 'proper' state that has abstract concepts of soveriegnty and law, is run by state machinery (MOJ = CIA) but is also run by the old elite families whose business and political connections put them in the position to 'naturally' take power (like the Kennedys, Vanderbilts, Halls, Bushs, Rockerfellers, Gettys, etc. seem to act in the real USA)?
 
Perhaps there can be some parallel drawn to the US around the 1900s or so, but the comparison falls short when we talk of sheer scale... Individual Rulers of Star Systems can run them as they think the situation requires, but all must at some level (usually Trade) contribute to the overall support of the Imperium... That, and there is no semblance of an election system... one man advised by advisors selects the Sector Dukes, and makes a few honor nobles on his Birthday...

The comparison with the Vanderbilts, et al is a sound one, though again there is the scale issue... How different would global politics be if a family or individual not only owned a large part of the solar system, but could exploit that part into commodities that earth people couldn't live without? I think the "Bill Gates" types of the Imperium would be a different animal entirely... and would have tremendous power... in some way power that would go beyond governments...
 
Icon 1 posted July 27, 2004 04:35 AMJuly 27, 2004 04:35 AM Profile for Elliot Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote I think this discussion highlights a problem in how government works in Traveller.

On one hand there are world treaties and high law, on the other hand there are enfeoffed nobles with private armies and the personal responsibility to protect the Imperium. The two, even if they don't contradict, are in unhappy tension.

The world treaty idea creates 'city states' out of every world - in that each world is a legal entity of the Imperium with its own rights and responsibilities. Yet at the same time there is a hereditary system of nobility with responsibility for a world (Marquis), Cluster (Count) or subsector/sector (Duke). Imperial government is both feudal(ish) and confederal at the same time.

The history of the European city states and the nobility indicates that this is a recipe for disaster and civil war.
---------------------------------------------
Well that happend in Europe. It doesn't need to always happen.
In fact during the days of the British Empire, India operated in some ways almost like a separate state. A near independant province, a familiar enough construction in history. The difference was that the Indian beaureacrats had all been taught loyalty to the Queen from youth and though they would have turf fights with London would never directly rebel
Something like this might be involved in the Imperium
 
I look forward to GT Nobles as I personally think the whole thing is a mess created by different authors singing from different hymn sheets.
----------------------------------------------
It is intended to be exatly that. The books are guidelines as to what life is like over a tremendous area in space, and by the way in time to, for Traveller covers several centuries besides the normal one. Think of how many differences there are on Terra today and multiply that several thousand times. And than make such allowances as are needed for such things as the influenece of cultures, notably the influence of the Imperial culture(the "space between the stars" would develop it's own culture-another topic)on its member worlds and neighbors. And then get very confused.
However I think huscarls wouldn't be Imperial troops. Nor do I think they would be the type of mercenaries found in Star Mercs. I think they would be a special type of mercenary permanently asscociated with the clan that employs them. If the grandpappy of the house chooses to hire them out they still would not be mercenaries of the Star Mercs type: they would be more like the Champion's Guard in Sword World's.
If they engaged in internal disputes they would be subject to the Imperial Rules of War, of course. If they were taken into Imperial Service they would be treated much like either Planetary, or Mercenary forces. However they are an institution all their own. Their key diferece, is as I said, that their loyalty is to a specific dynasty, and they are part of that dynasty in the same way that a planetary army is part of it's government.
 
IMTU I integrate the nobility and the world governments more than most of y'all seem to. When I see a non-democratic gov't code, my first assumption is that the rule of the planet and the imperial noble in charge of the planet are one in the same, either because when the planet entered the imperium it's local ruling class was co-opted into the imperial nobility, or the world was originally colonized/conquered for the imperium by a noble family. Even democratic governments ususally have some role for the local noble to play.

So, IMTU, the nobles Huscarles generally are the local military, so they aren't covered by the law level (they're the ones enforcing the law level). Also, I play that the Imperial Army only exists full-time as HQ units at the subsector level and up. When these HQ units actually need troops, they Imperialize local Huscarles.

Matt Pearsall
 
Since, IMTU, the fief is usually the starport, and external to the local world, here is a symbiosis going on: No matter how insular the locals, a Noble has a reason to encourage interstellar visitors, if only for layovers and on-port facilities.
 
Unfortunately, I haven't finished reading GT:Nobles yet but I do recall that Huscarles are mentioned at least in passing...

The following should be considered IIRC...I really wish I'd actually borrowed my friends copy of the book rather than just skimming through it last time we gamed...


I think they were referred to as a military or para-military force in direct service to a noble rather than a government. I am pretty sure they were restricted to High Nobles (Counts and up IIRC). There may have been something about them being exempt from some local laws in order to allow them to provide security for their employer.
 
Back
Top