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Hi world musings

  • Thread starter Black Globe Generator
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Black Globe Generator

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The T5 forum thread on population distribution in the Imperium got me thinking about high population worlds generally. Very late last night I scribbled a few notes in my campaign notebook on Hi worlds IMTU, and I'd appreciate a hand from my fellow Travellers in cleaning up my fuzzy thinking. This will be fairly disjointed I'm afraid, and I beg your patience.

Ideally most Hi worlds should be "garden" or "T-prime" worlds, or close to it - a marginal world with a population in the billions or tens of billions should be the interesting exception, not the rule.

Hi worlds may represent natural growth of the indigenous population over time, or the deliberate results of colonization or immigration. Some (many?) Hi worlds, initially settled under the Ziru Sirka or the Rule of Man (and a few earlier still by the Ancients) passed through the Long Night without succumbing to a catastrophic event (i.e., war, planet-wide natural disaster, et cetera), and their population reflects long-inhabitance.

Hi worlds settled during the Third Imperium most likely reflect deliberate colonization or the consequences of in-migration over centuries. Colonization projects initiated either by the Imperium or the megacorporations are the most likely candidates for achieving a population of a billion or more - most planetary or private colonizers are unlikely to achieve the same results due to lack of requisite resources. Colonies are deliberate attempts to harness the resource of a world - it seems to me that these are the best candidates for Hi population on an otherwise marginal world, representing access to critical resources that make overcoming the challenges associated with hostile conditions worthwhile (and presumably profitable).

Immigration as a source of population growth will be driven by the quality of life on the destination world (the "pull") or by the hostile conditions on the the source world (the "push") - a large influx of refugees to a world from neighboring worlds can push the population up and also create some interesting social stratification and tension. Some worlds with extensive resources may actively recruit migrants on other worlds to increase the pool of available workers, offering incentives for resettlement.

(As an aside, there should also be former Hi worlds scattered here and there, the results of catastrophes or outmigration - think Kansas for the latter...)

Population growth will be greatest between the time that medical advances decrease infant mortality and the point at which economic affluence no longer provides an incentive for large families. The interesting exception could be worlds where there is a religious or other social imperative toward large families - these worlds may also be a good source of colonists for other worlds.

Old Hi population worlds (those during or prior to the Rule of Man) likely served as the centers of pocket empires or, at the very least, relict trade networks through the Long Night. This will give them influence beyond their obvious economic and military power relative to their neighbors - it gives them the weight of history as well.

Neighbors of Hi worlds likely represent the sources of raw materials that add fuel to the economies of the more populous world. These may be colonies established under the direct or indirect auspices (that is, through influence over the Ministry of Colonization) of the Hi population world, while others may represent colonies established by public or private speculators seeking to capitalize on the market opportunities represented by the Hi world. A high-tech Ag world which will produce far more than it consumes makes an excellent neighbor for a Hi population world, for example, while Ni worlds focusing on natural resource extraction specifically focused on the needs of the more populous world may be fairly common - the latter systems may also be subject to the most egregious sort of waste in resource extraction as capital flows in to tap the current needs of the market, and then dries up as the demand changes, leaving behind a scarred planet and decaying infrastructure.

I know I'm missing a whole lot of interesting points, and I'm sure that the Citizens will bring up many concepts that I missed.

As a side project the other day, I created a new map of the Judges Guild Ley sector which forms the basis of my TU. I represented each system with a graduated circle representing the mainworld population code - the smallest circle represented Pop 1 or 2, the largest circle pop 9 or A, with barren systems represented with an 'x'. I knew the JG sectors were not generated entirely randomly, but seeing the results laid out like they were gave me some good insight into just how well the sector was put together.

According to the sector notes, subsector A (Ikhnaton) was populated during the Ziru Sirka, with the rest of the subsectors in Imperial space were established later, from the Rule of Man onward - interestingly enough this matches pretty closely with the map of the Ziru Sirka provided in DGP's Vilani & Vargr. (V&V is the only non-CT book that I use for my game.) As one would expect, the highest concentration of Hi worlds are to coreward and spinward, with almost none along the rimward or trailing edges of the sector. In these long-settled regions dating back to the First and Second Imperiums (or Imperia?), one finds as many as seven Hi worlds in each subsector - in the case of Ikhnaton, most of these worlds are surrounded by pop 7 and 8 worlds, further reinforcing the idea of long inhabitance throughout the that particular corner of space.

I also generated a list of all of the Hi pop world UWPs in the sector - most are T-primes, with only a couple of marginal oddballs in the lot. The distribution of Hi worlds in the sector makes sense on several levels.

From the map and list I can flesh out the history of the sector to show which worlds persisted through the Long Night, how waves of colonization and migration have affected the population distribution, draw the boundaries and write the histories of now-defunct pocket empires, and detail trade relationships between the more populous worlds and their neighbors - this also gives me lots of suggestions on how these neighboring systems are settled, and why. Taken together, this all becomes fodder for adventures, or allows me to more creatively improvise when the players (inevitably!) go off the page.
 
You could also get a Hi pop world if you had a moderately populated, marginal world that had just enough Tech to expand, but below TL9 (TL6-8. These types of worlds could have grown internally to very large populations before recontact or redeveloping FTL. If they developed FTL, then they would be the PE center that you described above and they would be looking for AG worlds. If they were rediscovered, the worlds around them might have already been colonized by the 3I, so secondary colonization might have been the best they could do initially.

Colonization will be more controlled by the GOV code than the POP code, so you might want to be careful there. Geidi Prime was a hell-hole, but no one could leave because the Baron wouldn't let them.

Asteroid Belts could easily support billions if the lowest TL never got below 8.

Interesting ideas... I look forward to smarter responses than mine...
 
IMTU, if a colony world's physical characteristic match those of the homeworld, then the POP roll gets a +1 DM.

By physical characteristics, I mean Orbit, Size, Atmosphere, amd Hydrographics.

By orbit, I mean relative to the system's Life Zone.

The math for determining the POP DM is a bit involved, but after a while you can do it in your head.

1) Determine the differences between the colony world and the homeworld for SIZ, ATM, and HYD.
2) Sum the differences.
3) Divide the sum by 3.
4) Round of fractions to the nearest whole number.
5) Add 1.
6) Roll 2D and subtract the DM to determine POP.
7) For every orbit removed from the life zone, apply a -1 DM.
8) OPTION: If homeworld POP is 8+, then apply a +1 DM.

My rationalisation is that (1) people are historically more inclined to emigrate to a place that is just like home, and (2) one reason that colonisation occurs is to relieve overcrowding on the homeworld, and (3) if a race tends to reproduce prolifically on its homeworld, it will do the same on a colony world as environmental conditions allow.

The more complete treatment is given HERE.
 
I had a thought about why there are so many Hi pop worlds with poor habitability conditions.

What if the Imperium (and all/most other star-faring civilizations) realized that they needed to protect their Prime worlds and severely limited the industrialization of the world's surface. Keep the prime living space for the people, not the industry.

Therefore, the megacorps would establish their noxious industries on less desireable worlds (even just those with already tainted atmospheres), then since that is where the work is, the population will follow. That could explain most of the less desireable worlds with hi or moderately high populations. Some corporation/group is trying to establish an industrial base. The population may still be Non-Industrial (POP 6-) but they are building the infrastructure necessary for an industrial society, or they are building the plants themselves.
 
Originally posted by Plankowner:
You could also get a Hi pop world if you had a moderately populated, marginal world that had just enough Tech to expand, but below TL9 (TL6-8).
Yes, indeed. A self-sufficient world with no meaningful contact for several centuries could make the jump from a population of hundreds of millions to billions during the Long Night.
Originally posted by Plankowner:
Colonization will be more controlled by the GOV code than the POP code, so you might want to be careful there. Geidi Prime was a hell-hole, but no one could leave because the Baron wouldn't let them.
I didn't mean to suggest or imply that population was the only determinant if a planet was a source of emigrants (or conversely, an immigrant destination), but rather that this is one possible influence of a Hi pop world on its neighbors.

I think that population distribution will be shaped by all the factors listed above, plus planetary governments, the nobility, the megacorporations, the Ministry of Colonization, and perhaps ultimately the Hivers. ;)
Originally posted by Plankowner:
Asteroid Belts could easily support billions if the lowest TL never got below 8.
In the JG Ley Sector, one of the Hi systems is A100A-something-something-C (Towermourn, in the Highlord subsector) - I have it as the moon around a gas giant, but most of the population lives in a massive space habitat that comprises the starport, construction yards, and manufacturing facilities. There are no truly habitable planets in the system, but the moons and the planetoid belts provide the necessary raw materials for most of the manufacturing that makes Towermourn a viable home for ten billion or so inhabitants.
Originally posted by Plankowner:
I had a thought about why there are so many Hi pop worlds with poor habitability conditions.

*snip*
Definitely, though making an operation like this profitable becomes a real challenge due to the higher costs of life support and perhaps the difficulty attracting workers due to the hostile conditions.

Hmmm...reminds me of Mudd's Women...
Originally posted by Heretic Keklas Rekobah:
IMTU, if a colony world's physical characteristic match those of the homeworld, then the POP roll gets a +1 DM....My rationalisation is that (1) people are historically more inclined to emigrate to a place that is just like home, and (2) one reason that colonisation occurs is to relieve overcrowding on the homeworld, and (3) if a race tends to reproduce prolifically on its homeworld, it will do the same on a colony world as environmental conditions allow.
I could defintely see this as a factor - another could be that the colony offers a better (closer to T-prime, perhaps) environment than the emigrants' present home.

They could also be facing overcrowding issues, or a lack of jobs or opportunities for advancement at home. Perhaps the colony offers settlers a chance at something they are unlikely to receive if they stay on their homeworlds, such a privately owned land, or access to careers that are restricted on their homeworld due to a rigid acadmeic hierarchy or caste.

Great observations - thanks for sharing them!
 
BGG, never meant to imply that you thought Population was the only factor on colonization. I was just trying to look at other influences.

You mentioned that you analyzed the Ley sector for Hi Pop worlds and trends, but you also mentioned that it was not a randomly created sector. I guess one of the bigger issues would be to do this same kind of analysis for a randomly generated sector and see what it could tell you. Random is going to be harder to find trends, since they would be, well, random.

Imperium Festerium seems to be going through that exercise right now in his MTU.

Interesting Discussion.
 
I took that same JG Ley Sector A100Axx-x and assumed they had moved inside the planet...

TL is going to be the big determinant upon colonial presence: TL 5 or lower won't have any self-generated, TL 6-8 will be in-system only if self-generated. TL 9 and up can self generate.

LL gives a good indicator of the self-willingness of colonists. Past LL 8, you can expect most colonists will be selected by the government, either for loyalty or for disruptive/criminal tendencies. Below LL4, almost all colonists will be going voluntarily or in lieu of punishment on a semi-voluntary basis for moderate infractions. ("Tell yuz what, ifn yuz onna da next ship, weza gonna forgets you had dis little screw up...")

IMO, of course.
 
BGG--interesting project! I like your take on the matter, that is retro-histroy of a Sector based on colonization efforts of 1st-2nd Imperia & the relationships of High population worlds & regions/ subsectors around them.

I concur with the colonization by TL that Aramis is stating, and self-generation.

The LL can be deceptive however, as laws/ mores tend to change over time periods, unless you hold to the view that they never do, and are "set" in stone for the working basics of your model.

Governments can also change in times of great duress (The Long Night/ Imperial Interstellar wars/ Imperial 2nd Civil War & AI-Viral collpase).

Then you have your High population worlds with lower technology than is usually thought to sustain them to explain. In these few, the explanation can be the resource the world had everyone there for has dried up; or the trade route to it has changed; Perhaps, like a freind of mine had happen to him, a massive layoff of the world's major corporation's subsidiaries occurred--any who could move did so, and the rest, well..they can't afford to move, and there aren't enough habitats at the new location to support them.

In his instance, he moved from the East coast to Utah, only to have the company make further cuts after he'd relocated family and a new house eight months later. Happily, he's gotten another job, but it took him time--macro scale that to one of these Hi pop quirky TL worlds, and you get the idea.

Great topic.
 
@BGG:
I disagree with HiPop worlds settled during the Third Imperium cannot have grown to their size by themselves.

If we assume that, on new colony worlds, the population doubles in each generation (i.e. an average of 4 children per couple), then the population digit will increase by 1 each century, assuming one generation is 30 years or less. (do the math - log 10 base 2 is ca 3.32, so 3.32 generations (with doubled population per generation) are needed for a tenfold increase, and 3.32 generations per century means each generation much be 30.1 years or shorter)

Since IIRC most colonization in the Imperium was done before the Civil War, and that was in the 600´s, we can expect most colony world pop digits to have grown by 4 in the 990´s era and by 5 in the 1100´s era - at least.
 
Originally posted by Aramis:
I took that same JG Ley Sector A100Axx-x and assumed they had moved inside the planet...
Ha! The inhabitants of Amelek in Spearhead subsector went that route IMJGTU.
Originally posted by Aramis:
TL is going to be the big determinant upon colonial presence: TL 5 or lower won't have any self-generated, TL 6-8 will be in-system only if self-generated. TL 9 and up can self generate.
Agreed.
Originally posted by Aramis:
LL gives a good indicator of the self-willingness of colonists. Past LL 8, you can expect most colonists will be selected by the government, either for loyalty or for disruptive/criminal tendencies. Below LL4, almost all colonists will be going voluntarily or in lieu of punishment on a semi-voluntary basis for moderate infractions. ("Tell yuz what, ifn yuz onna da next ship, weza gonna forgets you had dis little screw up...")
Agreed again.
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
BGG--interesting project! I like your take on the matter, that is retro-histroy of a Sector based on colonization efforts of 1st-2nd Imperia & the relationships of High population worlds & regions/ subsectors around them.
Thanks. Matching the distribution of Hi worlds to the history of the sector is giving me some great insights into the current conditions, how they came to be, and how they affect the present faced by the adventurers.
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Governments [and law levels, mentioned in the previous snipped paragraph] can also change in times of great duress (The Long Night/ Imperial Interstellar wars/ Imperial 2nd Civil War & AI-Viral collpase).
Definitely - this works on several interacting levels.

For example, one could go the Roman Empire route: a planetary republic established during the Rule of Man becomes the center of a pocket empire during the Long Night, fights a brief and pointless war with the Syleans and becomes a part of the Third Imperium as a military protectorate for a time - the present planetary government is balkanized, reflecting old republican divisions reasserting themselves after the end of empire. You could also take it a step further and postulate that a new government arises that unites the balkanized ancient provinces...

This brings up another point: worlds stretching back to the Ziru Sirka or Rule of Man should feel OLD. The contrast between Europe and the United States comes to mind - the presence of millenia-old structures alongside modern cities, the change in dominant forms of subsistence and commerce reflected in settlement patterns, et cetera.
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Then you have your High population worlds with lower technology than is usually thought to sustain them to explain. In these few, the explanation can be the resource the world had everyone there for has dried up; or the trade route to it has changed; Perhaps, like a freind of mine had happen to him, a massive layoff of the world's major corporation's subsidiaries occurred--any who could move did so, and the rest, well..they can't afford to move, and there aren't enough habitats at the new location to support them.
Excellent. Another approach that I use relates to the aforementioned Amelek system, with its mainworld of D333A99-7 - it's a haven of the Collectivist Party IMTU, and the low tech level and starport rating reflect awful inefficiencies and rampant corruption in the system of government. In my preminary notes for the system, I wrote that it was once C333746-9 and has regressed over the two centuries since the Collectivists took control.
Originally posted by Chaos:
@BGG:
I disagree with HiPop worlds settled during the Third Imperium cannot have grown to their size by themselves.

If we assume that, on new colony worlds, the population doubles in each generation (i.e. an average of 4 children per couple), then the population digit will increase by 1 each century, assuming one generation is 30 years or less. (do the math - log 10 base 2 is ca 3.32, so 3.32 generations (with doubled population per generation) are needed for a tenfold increase, and 3.32 generations per century means each generation much be 30.1 years or shorter)
If you accept that assumption, then yes, there's no reason to assume that a planet couldn't reach a Hi population status.

I'm not sure I'm personally comfortable with that assumption, however - I tend to assume that with increasing affluence and rising tech levels that the birthing imperative declines, so four kids per family on average would be pretty high IMTU on anything but tech level 7 or less worlds.

That's in no way to suggest that it can't happen - it certainly would make sense for Amelek! (I can see big Party banners extolling the virtues of large families as people are squeezed into cramped apartments built in converted mining tunnels in the planet's interior...)

Thanks again to everyone for the ideas!
 
BGG --Of course the lower the tech level, the more of a burden larger families are to the planet's maximum sustainable population (MSP), wouldn't it?

Communist China's present day example of enforced family-size and gender laws comes to mind.

In Totalitarian/ Extreme high law Hi pop worlds this would present it self, I would think into the population growth dynamic. In Lower law/ freer systems this would not apply so much perhaps.
 
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
BGG --Of course the lower the tech level, the more of a burden larger families are to the planet's maximum sustainable population (MSP), wouldn't it?
At lower tech levels most societies won't come close to realizing the maximum sustainable yield from agricuture due to inefficiencies - at the same time large families provide an important economic resource in terms of work output, whether in direct production or as wage earners.
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
Communist China's present day example of enforced family-size and gender laws comes to mind.

In Totalitarian/ Extreme high law Hi pop worlds this would present it self, I would think into the population growth dynamic. In Lower law/ freer systems this would not apply so much perhaps.
I wouldn't call it a universal phenomenon, but it could definitely be a factor on some worlds, such as Na and Po worlds.

This is another cool way of making worlds distinctive from one another, and heaven knows we referees need that!
 
Agreed, BGG, the lower tech level has less efficient agriculture means (below TL4 & the even the tractor!). Likewise these Hi Na & Hi Po & Hi In Na Po worlds are heavily dependent on outside food resources.

In another thread where we are talking about orbital refineries, Orbital Arcologies stations for just growing food for the main world come into play (Minimum Pop 5+, TL8, C+ better port to build these)

Using JTAS as a resourcebook & rule of thumb, if said Hi Na, or Hi Po, or Hi In Na Po is below C-class port status, and below TL8, they're hurting whenever a trade embargo hits 'em, or when trade routes shift!

Imagine a North Korean-like such world!

Now in systems with C+, TL8+ with Hi pop's, you're absolutely right it makes sense they would have the infrastructure to have these orbiting (and if TL-D gravitic Atmospheric "free floating") facilities for their own independence off all but bulk imports from neighboring Ag Ni worlds.

I note there are also (in the T20 993 version of Ley & adjacent Gateway systems) we have examples of Such.

Quaran/Ley has a Hi population (9), a religious Autocracy, and a 0-LL, lying between the Imperium and the Gateway states with a B-class port & TL-B over a water world. It benefits from the trade route between the Imperium & its primary Gateway client.

Lunber/Glimmerdrift (pop A) with LL- H :eek:
an imperial client state just over the border...an extraordinary amount of folk in a small place at the high end of the law level chart!

Other examples exist all in between of course.
 
I'm in the process of working up thumbnail historical and cultural sketches of the Hi pop worlds in Ley Sector, and this thread came to mind, in particular the following:
Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
This brings up another point: worlds stretching back to the Ziru Sirka or Rule of Man should feel OLD.
After working out a rough settlement pattern going back about six thousand years, I decided about three-quarters of the high population worlds in the sector were originally settled during either the First or Second Imperium - a few lower population worlds also date back to either the Ziru Sirka or the Rule of Man and subsequently lost population, either during the Long Night or the sometime tumultuous events that occurred in the sector since the establishment of the Third Imperium.

Having some idea of when, and under what circumstances, these long-settled worlds were originally inhabited gives me plenty to work with in making them distinct destinations. Home to the bulk of the sector population, the cultural and historical influence of these worlds should be profound - and if it's not, there should be a compelling reason why.

What I'm starting to brainstorm now are the ways these cultures have evolved over anywhere from three to six thousand years: how did social institutions and customs adapt to physical, ecological, social, economic, and political conditions over time, and in what way is life on these different worlds distinctive from other worlds of the Imperium?

As I'm going through this process, I have somewhere in the back of my mind Larry Niven's Known Space stories. Niven creates interesting sketches of life and social institutions on the various colonized worlds of Known Space, right down to the homeworld nicknames that the inhabitants carry with them, such as the "Crashlanders" of We Made It and the "Mountaineers" of Plateau. (IMTU I think being a "Cliffhanger," born and raised in Scarp City on Lysenko, beats being a Lysenkan any day!)

The cultures of these high population worlds will spill over onto neighboring worlds, diffusing with movement of people and goods that comes with commerce, colonization, and warfare among the stars. Trying to create distinctive cultures for hundreds of worlds in a sector is too daunting a task for me (at least until my weekly lottery investment "matures"), but adding detail to a couple of dozen Hi population worlds is within the realm of the possible - I can then use these details on other worlds, mixing and matching as diffusion and assimilation occur in the spheres of influence these worlds enjoy.
 
Okay, I carried this out another step by making a list of all of the captive (gov 6) worlds in the sector, and then figuring out who controlled what.

Three are administered by the Imperial Navy - one as the sector depot, one as the center of an anti-Imperial insurrection, and one as a legacy of the Civil War. One is administered as an Imperial Reserve by the Ministry of Conservation.

The rest were assigned to different planets, often (but not always) a nearby, appropriate Hi population world. Most of the captive worlds are assumed to be colonies - others represent truly captive populations, the results of conquests during the Long Night or even during the Third Imperium era. (The JG sectors make frequent references to the Civil War as a particularly trying period in the history of the domain, so I've extrapolated that to mean a breakdown of Imperial control over much of Ley sector amid several brief but destructive wars with neighboring polities.)

This gave me a list of forty-three worlds, mostly Hi population, and their associated colonies or dominions. This makes my life as referee much easier in a couple of ways. First, it makes it a simple matter to figure out the holdings of the most powerful Imperial nobles in the sector - any planet controlling a couple of systems is a likely candidate for a duchy or marquessate, or perhaps a county with aspirations. (Note: IMTU Imperial fiefs are slightly different than the canon description.)

Second, it further defines the oldest, most influential cultures and societies in the sector. As described in my previous post, rather than try to define the social practices and mores of a couple of hundred worlds, I can focus on maybe thirty significant societies and extrapolate cultural diffusion and assimilation to or by neighboring worlds. This allows me to add depth to the different peoples and worlds while narrowing my workload considerably.

I'm going to expand colonial relationships a bit further by next compiling a list of balkanized worlds and compare proximity aned tech level to nearby worlds that might point to additional colonies, as well as figuring out who the off-world players might be in conflicts between planetary governments on gov 7 worlds.

I don't know if any of this is interesting or helpful to anyone, but it helps me clarify my own thought process to write it all down.
 
I, for one, find it very intersting. I have never dabbled in the Ley Sector, but I do have the old JG version.

If you get any data put together I would be interested in reading it. Maybe something for Stellar Reaches???
 
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