[HG] Smallest viable fighter?

[Golan2072]

Monetary issues delay my ability to get T20 in the next few months. So for now I stick to my beloved CT system

On to the issue at hand.
Generally, and for the sake of ease and a Small-Ship TU, I prefer to use Book 2 designs, with a few HG implants as given by Sigg Oddra. However, the Book 2 system has no rules for designing small crafts so I design them in HG and then "retrofit" them into Book 2. The Book 2 fighter is, IIRC (I don't have the book right next to me) capable of mounting laser weapons. In HG, with it's 10 dtons and PowerPlant 6, it only has 0.6 EP, which isn't enough even for a single laser turret. Calculation shows me that in order to produce 1 EP with PowerPlant 6, a minimum of 17 dton hull is required. So a small fighter would be armed with missiles, and thus should also have some "magazine" space to hold reloads.

This thread discusses very small fighters for T20 (I think). However, in High Guard a fighter does not nescerily need a bridge - it's either a bridge a computer, or both. So the calculation for HG is:

Model/1 Computer 1 dton
Hardpoint/Turret 1 dton
Pilot's Couch 0.5 dton
Fuel rounded up to 1 dton
Power Plant-6 1.26 dton
Manouver Drive-6 1.19 dton
Magazine 1.05 dton (holding 21 missiles)

Total 7dton, and with a nice magazine (30 ammo total, including the triple turret's 9 reloads). With triple turrets, and when grouped into a HG "battery", a ten-fighter squadron has a USP rating 6; in Book 2 terms, that will only mean 30 missiles going your way in each turn

 

[BetterThanLife]

Well you are definitely mixing and matching. You are using a model-0 computer. (As a small craft without a bridge treats its computer as model -1.) Book 2 combat doesn't use batteries, so squadron rules don't really apply. Adventure 7 had two small HG fighters. The 8 Ton Zhodani fighter and the 6 Ton fighter for use with the Broadsword. (And the modular cutter fighter frame.) Both were man-6 and agility-6.

But agility isn't in book 2 combat either.

 

[jappel]

The first question is "viable against what?" You've indicated that yours is a small-ship TU - does this mean that the big ships (10kdton+) don't exist? How about armor for naval vessels? Nuclear dampers? And what combat system are you using?

Fighters with nuclear missles, in sufficient numbers, can be a viable threat against serious naval vessels from TL 12 and down - before the advent of nuclear dampers. The caveat is that you need to keep the differential in computer size small as it plays a big role in the To Hit process. This means the fighters needed for fleet engagements are going to be heavies in the 50+ ton range, largely to support the bigger computer.

Against smaller, unarmored ships, your fighters will probably do just fine.

John

 

[mike wightman]

Employee2-4601, you are building this at TL 9-12 aren't you?

In LBB2 the 10t fighter can mount either one laser, pulse or beam take your pick, up to three missile racks or up to three sandcasters.

I usually take this to mean if a laser is carried you can only have 2 missile launchers or 2 sancasters as well - but that's a bit of a fudge

As Bhoins says, agility is not an issue with LBB2 so your fighter can have a slightly larger power plant to get the energy needed for the laser, if you want to so equip your small fighter.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by jappel:
The first question is "viable against what?" You've indicated that yours is a small-ship TU - does this mean that the big ships (10kdton+) don't exist? How about armor for naval vessels? Nuclear dampers? And what combat system are you using?

Fighters with nuclear missles, in sufficient numbers, can be a viable threat against serious naval vessels from TL 12 and down - before the advent of nuclear dampers. The caveat is that you need to keep the differential in computer size small as it plays a big role in the To Hit process. This means the fighters needed for fleet engagements are going to be heavies in the 50+ ton range, largely to support the bigger computer.

Against smaller, unarmored ships, your fighters will probably do just fine.

John

I'm definitely a small ships universe proponent, but it is still possible to include bay weapons, spinal mounts, nuclear dampers and meson screens.
You just have to play with the sizes given in High Guard a bit.
Oddly enough this produces ships a lot like those in TNE

If you stick to LBB2 only then the maximum ship size - 5000t - will get most of its offensive punch from carried craft. Either 10t fighters or the 30t ship's boat fit the bill, the latter is especially effective if fitted with a much larger computer.

Jame's posting of LBB2 designs a few weeks ago got me thinking about warships in the LBB2 paradigm again.
His "dreadnought" carried so many fighters it got me thinking about how combat works between the "big ships" in the LBB2 paradigm. Notice that with multitarget the most fighters you can engage is 4.
So if a 5000t warship launches 80-100 fighters at you, and you haven't got a similar fighter screen available, you are

(especially if using the special supplement missile rules ).

Here is a possible balancing option.

Install more computers to allow turrets to be directed at x targets per computer multi-target4 program running, and one CIC module (4tons, 1MCr, 1 crew required) per additional computer installed

Example, a 2000t destroyer with a model 7 computer and 20 turrets can only engage up to 4 separate targets. To make it more effective versus fighters and the like, the architect opts to install a 16t CIC and 4 model 5 computers (to run target, multi-target 4, predict 4, gunner interact, and return fire). The destroyer may now fire each turret at a separate target.

 

[jappel]

Hmm, interesting idea Sigg. Looks like you've just invented the CT version of the Aegis missle cruiser.

John

 

[mike wightman]

That was one of the inspirations for the idea

IMHO LBB2 is one of the best versions of ship design and ship combat in the whole of Traveller canon - you just have to play around with it a bit

 

[mike wightman]

As an aside, if you scrap the 1 ton of fuel minimum for small craft you can build a TL15 4t fighter (6g, missile racks only).

 

[EntilZha]

In T20, what with all small craft control systems weighing 4 tons, and basic computer, avionics, sensors, and communication weighing in at 1 ton, it seems that the lowest weight a fighter could possibly get away with would be about 8 tons, IMO.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Well you are definitely mixing and matching. You are using a model-0 computer. (As a small craft without a bridge treats its computer as model -1.) Book 2 combat doesn't use batteries, so squadron rules don't really apply. Adventure 7 had two small HG fighters. The 8 Ton Zhodani fighter and the 6 Ton fighter for use with the Broadsword. (And the modular cutter fighter frame.) Both were man-6 and agility-6.

But agility isn't in book 2 combat either.

Sorry about the cofusing stats. The "Factor-6" part was to speak in pure HG terms (to demonstrate this small squadron's ability as a perfect "Q-Ship"'s "battery"), and so is Agility - I use book 2, so both are irrelevant. However I do try to keep EP balanced. And yes, I'm aware that the computer works as Model/0; however, for the sake of tonnage and price, and for that alone it's considered Model/1.

IMTU I use Book 2 with Sigg Oddra's Armor rules (almost exclusively on heavy military ships) and with his Heavy Turret (Plasma/Fusion) rules. I am thinking about using the Missiles supplement, but I'm not sure about this (it might get things too complicated). IMTU, Nuclear Dampers are mid-late TL13, and thus weren't invented yet. This means that nukes ARE deadly, VERY DEADLY!

So ofcourse, full-military fighters of the current (TL12) production are big (20dton+) and use heavy guns (Fusion or Plasma) in addition to missiles/nukes in order to deal with armored opponents. However, the fighter model I'm talking about is an antiquated (in military terms) TL10 design used in war fought almost a century before MTUs "current" time. Primitive for the military - but perfect for pirates, mercs, militias, terrorists and even merchants who want a little protection. And it's damn cheap and small.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by EntilZha:
In T20, what with all small craft control systems weighing 4 tons, and basic computer, avionics, sensors, and communication weighing in at 1 ton, it seems that the lowest weight a fighter could possibly get away with would be about 8 tons, IMO.

I tried to convert the Zhodani 8ton fighter to T20. It came out as Man-5 Agility-5. Though I think I also came up with Man-6 Agility-4, the higher Agility was more important. At TL-15, because of the powerplant size difference, I think you can actually get down to 7tons, but it will be close.

However we were talking about usuable HG fighters in a book-2 combat world. (However little gnats like these are virtually useless if you use the HG tables against a typical military target in HG.) They can't even hit each other.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Bhoins:

However we were talking about usuable HG fighters in a book-2 combat world. (However little gnats like these are virtually useless if you use the HG tables against a typical military target in HG.) They can't even hit each other.

In Book 2 terms, ultra-small fighters are just fast, cheap, compact missile-launch platforms. A bit bigger fighters (17+ dtons) carry lasers/sandcasters and guard them. So you have a "kinght/archer" doctrine, or, without the defending fighters, "mongol horde" doctrine (i.e. fast-moving "archers").

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:

However we were talking about usuable HG fighters in a book-2 combat world. (However little gnats like these are virtually useless if you use the HG tables against a typical military target in HG.) They can't even hit each other.

In Book 2 terms, ultra-small fighters are just fast, cheap, compact missile-launch platforms. A bit bigger fighters (17+ dtons) carry lasers/sandcasters and guard them. So you have a "kinght/archer" doctrine, or, without the defending fighters, "mongol horde" doctrine (i.e. fast-moving "archers"). </font>[/QUOTE]They aren't that cheap, but you get to put lots of launchers in space for limited hulls. (For example the 600 ton Zhodani Patrol frigate could put 10 launchers in space to supplement its missile launcher, 3 sandcaster and nice two triple turret laser battery. (Kind of makes me wonder why the T20 conversion has a fusion gun instead of the laser battery. Hmmmmm!) It means you have to defend against 11 targets, 11 incoming missiles and the laser battery. (Though if you kill the Patrol vessel the fighters are dead, just not right away.

)

 

[JAFARR]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
Well you are definitely mixing and matching. You are using a model-0 computer. (As a small craft without a bridge treats its computer as model -1.) Book 2 combat doesn't use batteries, so squadron rules don't really apply. Adventure 7 had two small HG fighters. The 8 Ton Zhodani fighter and the 6 Ton fighter for use with the Broadsword. (And the modular cutter fighter frame.) Both were man-6 and agility-6.

But agility isn't in book 2 combat either.

Model-0, Yes, but LBB5 (according to my nice reprint) gives no specs for Model-0 even if it does reference it on page 34. I had always assumed that was only came into play when you are comparing computers in the combat phase. BTW, If you have a LLB5 model-0 how many spaces does it have in cpu and storage? Model 1 has 2 & 4 which means you can only use it with laser weapons as you must be using Maneuver (1) and Target (1), but cannot also use Launch (1). To effectivly use missles or sand you need a minium of 1Bis which is not allowed for small craft (LBB5 page 34). Or is there a workaround for this that I missed back when I was heavy into CT?

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Andy Fralix:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Well you are definitely mixing and matching. You are using a model-0 computer. (As a small craft without a bridge treats its computer as model -1.) Book 2 combat doesn't use batteries, so squadron rules don't really apply. Adventure 7 had two small HG fighters. The 8 Ton Zhodani fighter and the 6 Ton fighter for use with the Broadsword. (And the modular cutter fighter frame.) Both were man-6 and agility-6.

But agility isn't in book 2 combat either.

Model-0, Yes, but LBB5 (according to my nice reprint) gives no specs for Model-0 even if it does reference it on page 34. I had always assumed that was only came into play when you are comparing computers in the combat phase. BTW, If you have a LLB5 model-0 how many spaces does it have in cpu and storage? Model 1 has 2 & 4 which means you can only use it with laser weapons as you must be using Maneuver (1) and Target (1), but cannot also use Launch (1). To effectivly use missles or sand you need a minium of 1Bis which is not allowed for small craft (LBB5 page 34). Or is there a workaround for this that I missed back when I was heavy into CT? </font>[/QUOTE]Obviously it has been a long time since I tried to do LBB2 combat. How could I have forgotten that little problem. Mayday is the same but I had been using Mayday with LBB5 combat tables for so long I forgot about that problem. Now i am going back to look at the software and capabilities of computers in the THB. Because I believe it will show a similar problem.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Now I remember why I basically ignored that part of the THB. It gives me a headache trying to figure it out. Programs require a number of PP to run. Yet Starship Computers don't have PP available listed. They have a two part free CPU output instead. The first number being higher than the second. What does all that mean? (Better move this to a new thread.)

 

[veltyen]

Yet Starship Computers don't have PP available listed.

THB 1ed pg 282 - Standard design ship computers. Has a PP listing for one of the servers that make up a ships computer. There are 4, I've taken that to mean that the other 3 are dedicated to Comms/Sensors/Avionics and cannot also run seperate systems. Note that while this section is in the book, it isn't listed in the updated standard design chapter errata.

THB 1ed pg 263 - Design sequence listing for ships computers. It has a "free CPU" listed, which isn't explained or referenced. In the errata it replaces that column with the listing from pg 282. This at least simplifies things, as there is now only one definition.

The CPU ratings match the computer section of the design sequence rules (THB 1ed pg 225) and represents the maximum combined ratings of programs that can be loaded, the second number is the most complex skill rating of program that can be loaded.

Skills take 1PP per point, so a Rank 14 program gives that computer a skill rank of 14, modified by stats and other bonuses as normal. The rest of the programming is not limited in this way, though it still takes up core PP.

The 4 computer setup means a the pilot (dedicated avionics computer), sensor officer (dedicated sensors computer) and comms officer (dedicated communications computer) are already available, leaving the remaining computer to handle everything else. This is basically Gunnery in a small robo-fighter, there not being a lot else left to do.

Even the smallest ships computer has enough grunt to run a fairly decent programming set. Therefore the limitations under the T20 ruleset are 10dTon, as this is the minimum size for any ships computer. Potentially in even very small ships a far more capable computer could be enplaced to run things, this would in fact make a lot of sense, as bridge space in mandatory under T20.