[HG] Slugfest with the 154th

robject · Jan 16, 2006

Yesterday, Hans threw down the gauntlet and declared (my paraphrasing, as a Texan):

(Picture Hans wearing jeans with a huge hullmetal belt buckle, chaps, cowhide vest, plain leather boots, and a 10-gallon cowboy hat. A Colt Laser pistol rests comfortably in a well-worn holster around his waist.)

Hans squints into the sunset of an F5 V star, kicks at the red dust outside the pub in Startown.

"Ain't no way no piddling Nolikian battle rider squadron kin take on them thar capital ships ('less they's cheatin' with overwhelmin' numbers) on a cost-effective basis. Them riders are a-gonna git themselves into a fix, an' where they gonna run when things git dicey? They get captured or blown to slag, that's what happens, and you lose umpteen billion credits and a set of yer finest crew, that's what happens."

He spits some chewing tobacco on the ground, mounts his Weem's Beast, and rides off into aforementioned sunset.

So, in the finest tradition of Classic Traveller, I suggest a Slugfest between the 154th Battle Rider squadron and various sets of capital ship squadrons in various strengths, TLs, and formations. Let's see what happens when we put them to the test.

Do I hear volunteers? We need pairs of impartial wargamers who are cooperative. I suggest people pair off (with each person representing one side) and resolve squadron combat in Imperial wargames. Actual combat doctrine may be up for grabs, here, but data is data, and we may want different kinds of doctrinal scenarios as well as different mixes of opponents for the 154th -- including Zhodani squadrons, naturally.

I expect everyone to have a sense of fair play and good sportsmanship. After all, we're all on the same side. These are just wargames.

Again, do I hear any volunteers?

Sigg?
Oz?
Scott?

Will this thing fly?

Edit I'm thinking of pairing off squadrons from a set of five Zhodani BatRons, some stronger and some weaker, against five Imperial BatRons, including the 154th.

robject · Jan 16, 2006

Imperial Squadrons

154th Battle Squadron
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> 154th_BatRon Battle Squadron
475000 tons, MCr 111270

1 x Lurenti Battle_Carrier
300000 tons, MCr 23056
(probably closer to 500,000 tons)

7 x Nolikian Battle_Rider
20000 tons, MCr 9268

7 x Sloan Fleet_Escort
5000 tons, MCr 3334

(I forgot the fighter complement)</pre>[/QUOTE]Kokirrak Battle Squadron
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Kokirrak_BatRon Battle Squadron
1200000 tons, MCr 810612

6 x Kokirrak Dreadnaught
200000 tons, MCr 135102

(and what else?)</pre>[/QUOTE]Plankwell Battle Squadron
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Plankwell_BatRon Battle Squadron
1200000 tons, MCr 722964

6 x Plankwell Dreadnaught
200000 tons, MCr 120494

(and what else?)</pre>[/QUOTE]Tigress Battle Squadron
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> Tigress_BatRon Battle Squadron
3000000 tons, MCr 2176326

6 x Tigress Dreadnaught
500000 tons, MCr 362721

(and what else?)</pre>[/QUOTE]One More BatRon, or a CruRon
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Any suggestions?</pre>[/QUOTE]

robject · Jan 16, 2006

Zhodani Squadrons

Jotvobl BatRon
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">The Battle Division: Four Jotvobl class Battleships form the Battle Division of
the squadron. Their heavy firepower is the crux of the entire squadron's
strength.

Jotvobl class BB-T136AH4-896608-799S9-0 MCr184,205.7 300 kton
batteries bearing C 6 FWW W TL=14
batteries L A RZZ Z Crew=1,167
Fuel=120,000. EP=30,000. Agility=6. Cargo=500. Z=50.

The Escort Division: Eight Dlevrrk
class Light Cruisers.

Dlevrrk class CL-N136CH3-496609-999G9-0 MCr35,342.8 40 kton
batteries bearing M 4 H94 9 TL=14
batteries R 5 LA5 A Crew=409
Fuel=16,800. EP=4,800. Agility=6.

The Fighter Division: The fighter division for this squadron is provided by four
Jderveledr-class fleet carriers, and consists of 800 heavy fighters organized
into 80 groups. These groups are commanded by the fighter coordinator aboard the
carrier flagship. Fighters are used for long range patrols and reconnaissance
within a system, allows the carrier advanced warning of enemy ships or bases. In
addition, the fighters are expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels
until the battleships are ready to begin battle.

Jderveledr class FC-S633AH4-F96608-99997-200 MCr18,873.3
batteries bearing F F FFFFF TL=14
batteries W W WWWWW Crew=1,703
Cargo=500. Fuel=80000. EP=20000. </pre>[/QUOTE]Okedi BatRon
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">The Battle Division: Four Okedi class Battleships form the Battle Division of
the squadron. Their heavy firepower is the crux of the entire squadron's
strength.

Okedi class BB-T146AH4-596608-999S7-0 MCr185,482.7 300 kton
batteries bearing Y 7 CCL Y TL=14
batteries Z F RRY Z Crew=2,276
Fuel=150,000. EP=30,000. Agility=6. Cargo=500. Low=500. Y=50. Z=100.

The Escort Division: Eight Dlevrrk
class Light Cruisers.

Dlevrrk class CL-N136CH3-496609-999G9-0 MCr35,342.8 40 kton
batteries bearing M 4 H94 9 TL=14
batteries R 5 LA5 A Crew=409
Fuel=16,800. EP=4,800. Agility=6.

The Fighter Division: The fighter division for this squadron is provided by four
Jderveledr-class fleet carriers, and consists of 800 heavy fighters organized
into 80 groups. These groups are commanded by the fighter coordinator aboard the
carrier flagship. Fighters are used for long range patrols and reconnaissance
within a system, allows the carrier advanced warning of enemy ships or bases. In
addition, the fighters are expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels
until the battleships are ready to begin battle.

Jderveledr class FC-S633AH4-F96608-99997-200 MCr18,873.3
batteries bearing F F FFFFF TL=14
batteries W W WWWWW Crew=1,703
Cargo=500. Fuel=80000. EP=20000.</pre>[/QUOTE]Stisahsheql Battle Rider Squadron
<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> The 24th Battle Rider Squadron is organized into four divisions - the Escort
division, the Battle division, the Screen division, and the Carrier.

The Carrier: The heart of the battle squadron is the carrier. This 550,000 ton
ship carries the Battle Riders of the squadron as well as the Fighter division.
Heavily armed and armored, the carrier serves as battle control station as well
as a centralized jump drive for the squadron. In addition to the standard bridge
facilities for ship operations, the carrier is fitted with an extensive
electronics and communications suite which enables the squadron commodore (as
opposed to the captain of the carrier) to control and direct the components of
the squadron in battle and while maneuvering.

Stisahsheql Class CB-V7323H4-096608-99997-150 MCr18838 550 kton
batteries bearing 2 2 22222 TL=14
batteries 4 4 44444 Crew=1908
Cargo=1,000. Fuel=181,500. EP=16,500. 6-Battle Riders.

The Escort Division: Sloan
class Fleet Escorts (??).

Sloan Class FE-E3469J2-502200-90009-0 MCr3,334.5 5,000 tons
batteries bearing 3 2 TL=15
batteries 3 2 Crew=40
Cargo=40. Fuel=2,450. EP=450. Agility=6. Fuel Scoops. Three Cutters.

The Battle Division: 6 Iprtsielezhdr class Battle Riders form the Battle
Division of the squadron. Their heavy firepower is the crux of the entire
squadron's strength. The Battle Riders are designed to mate snugly with the
carrier, using a minimum of volume when attached to their mother ship. Crews
continue to maintain and tune the Riders when attached to the carrier, and
maintain them in a constant state of readiness.

Iprtsielezhdr class BR-N106DH3-C96608-999S7-0 MCr163837.7 40 ktons
batteries bearing 5 5 22502 TL=14
batteries A A 55A15 Crew=399
Cargo=400. Fuel=5,200. EP=5,200.

The Fighter Division: The carrier's hangar bays carry 150 single place fighters.
Fighters are used for long range patrols and reconnaissance within a system,
allows the carrier advanced warning of enemy ships or bases. In addition, the
fighters are expected to hold the screen against enemy vessels until the Riders
are ready to begin battle.

Sylean Class FH-0106N71-830000-20002-0 MCr105.23 50 tons
batteries bearing 3 1 1 TL=15
batteries 1 1 1 Crew=2
Fuel=11. EP=11. Agility=6.</pre>[/QUOTE]

robject · Jan 16, 2006

Sigg just informed me that the Lurenti doesn't have fuel for a Jump-4... or even a Jump-3.

This is disturbing, but I would really like to see how those Nolikian perform. Making the Lurenti larger is fine by me and not much of a combat or budget issue... probably.

far-trader · Jan 16, 2006

You know the Nolikians don't quite add up either right

Close enough for gaming the scenario though, except for doing a cost analysis (the price is low by a lot).

I thought I and others had worked out the Lurenti to close enough also with a little creative engineering. I'll have a look for the designs.

I did some work on the Plankwell more recently too but I'm not sure just where or what it was for. Might have been a T20 conversion. The mind is going

I want to volunteer as it sounds like fun, I'm just not sure what kind of free time I'll have for it. Is this going to be PBEM turns or chat or something else?

robject · Jan 16, 2006

No clue. I suspect it will be rather informally run, with the combatants being the ones who together decide how to run their squadron action for the sake of speed.

Scott Martin · Jan 16, 2006

Hi Robject

My posting of late should be considered an abberation. I actually got some time off during the holidays, and mostly just had to move "old" content (some already in digital form) onto the forum.

I'm afraid that I just don't have a whole lot of free time, and my HG is sitting in a box in another city. I might be able to pull together the time (especailly with a flexible "opponent") but I can't figure out how to get around the combat issues. I have my "design" photocopies (taken to keep my HG from falling apart more) but I don't have the damage tables, so I'd have to let my opponent assign damage.

A chunk of how this resolves will depend on the rules variants used, although I am assuming "vanilla" HG2 is the intended baseline.

Hmm... sounds like I'm seriously considering the idea. Do we want to use a global random number generator, or statistical combat methods? and would this be best resolved by writing a chunk of simulation code and "fighting" battles according to stock doctrine? (this removes the human bias, if your assumptions are correct)

I will however throw in with Hans, and state for the record that for the same general cost and overall tonnage I think that a starship squadron is a more cost-effective strategy. NB this assumes that you need to pay for the tender as well, and assumes that the ships are similarly designed. To test the latter, I'd reccomend running a number of "Civil War" scenarios. I'd also ditch the Tigress BatRon, since it's a hybrid carrier design and will just confuse the issue...

I'll open the betting at an hour of my time to be used for proofreading, editing, playtesting or layout (text or RTF only, to avoid publishing tool "holy wars")

In answer to the next question, no I don't have "publication" credit, yes I do write hundred page software manuals for my project teams that users can understand. I am also (for the most part) capable of spelling without mechanical assistance, although anyone wanting my handwritten notes deserves what they get

Any takers for the bet?

Scott Martin

far-trader · Jan 16, 2006

Not much luck in my notes, I don't seem to have done a final working design of either. In brief I have just noted, as Sigg pointed out, that the Lurenti can't hold the required fuel (my notes suggest drop tanks for the bulk of it) and that the Nolikian's are very tight (too tight to fit quarters or gunboats) and both seem to be listed well below actual cost.

If this thing is to be pulled off the first thing needed are some properly vetted designs fitting the parameters. And my free time is looking shorter all the time

plus earlier commitiments that take precedence.

So while it still sounds fun, even if not particularly informative, I think I'll have to pass.

Have fun.

(now how did that get there?

I think Bill dropped it, yeah that's it

)

robject · Jan 17, 2006

Well, I see that Hans already has a point in his favor. If canon designs aren't even built according to the rules of the game, how valid are they?

The Oz · Jan 17, 2006

I believe that both the Nolikian and the Lurenti were re-built for Power Projection:Fleet in full accordance with HG rules. If you reverse-engineered them from the PP:F stats you should have HG-combat useable ships.

mike wightman · Jan 17, 2006

It's not just the SMC tender/riders that are suspect.

The battleships in Supplement 9 have errors in them too.

robject · Jan 17, 2006

Updated

Here's a non-canonical "Beta" version of the Nolikian. Using HGS, I initially followed the original design as closely as possible...

<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Ship: Nolikian beta
Class: Nolikian
Type: Rider
Architect: rje
Tech Level: 15

USP
BR-K106NJ3-F79900-407N9-4 MCr 22,045.869 18 KTons
Bat Bear 8 C 11A Crew: 214
Bat 8 C 11A TL: 15

Cargo: 17.400 Emergency Low: 50 Fuel: 3,960.000 EP: 3,960.000 Agility: 6
Shipboard Security Detail: 18
Craft: 7 x 56T gunboats
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops and On Board Fuel Purification

Architects Fee: MCr 220.459 Cost in Quantity: MCr 17,636.695

Detailed Description

HULL
18,000.000 tons standard, 252,000.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
27 Officers, 187 Ratings

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-22, 3,960.000 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/9fib Computer

HARDPOINTS
Spinal Mount, 10 50-ton bays, 49 Hardpoints

ARMAMENT
Meson Gun Spinal Mount (Factor-N),
10 50-ton Missile Bays (Factor-9),
12 Triple Beam Laser Turrets organised into 12 Batteries (Factor-4),
10 Particle Accelerator Turrets organised into 1 Battery (Factor-7)

DEFENCES
27 Triple Sandcaster Turrets organised into 8 Batteries (Factor-7),
Nuclear Damper (Factor-9),
Meson Screen (Factor-9),
Armoured Hull (Factor-15)

CRAFT
7 56.000 ton gunboatss (Crew of 0, Cost of MCr 0.000)

FUEL
3,960.000 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, On Board Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
122.0 Staterooms, 50 Emergency Low Berths, 17.400 Tons Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 22,266.328 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 220.459),
MCr 17,636.695 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
170 Weeks Singly, 136 Weeks in Quantity</pre>[/QUOTE]And here's the new "gunboat". Still not very useful, perhaps.

<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Ship: Pasuuli
Class: Pasuuli
Type: Gunboat
Architect: rje
Tech Level: 15

USP
GB-0106Z81-000000-00003-0 MCr 200.820 56 Tons
Bat Bear 1 Crew: 1
Bat 1 TL: 15

Cargo: 0.120 Fuel: 15.680 EP: 15.680 Agility: 6
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Substitutions: Z = 28

Architects Fee: MCr 2.008 Cost in Quantity: MCr 160.656

Detailed Description

HULL
56.000 tons standard, 784.000 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot

ENGINEERING
Jump-0, 6G Manuever, Power plant-28, 15.680 EP, Agility 6

AVIONICS
No Bridge Installed, Model/9 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Triple Missile Turret organised into 1 Battery (Factor-3)

DEFENCES
None

CRAFT
None

FUEL
15.680 Tons Fuel (0 parsecs jump and 28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
2 Acceleration Couches, 0.120 Ton Cargo

USER DEFINED COMPONENTS
None

COST
MCr 202.828 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr 2.008),
MCr 160.656 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
26 Weeks Singly, 21 Weeks in Quantity</pre>[/QUOTE]

far-trader · Jan 17, 2006

Just to be clear, you know before I point out the mistakes

, this is an attempt at getting close to the design but making it work right?

In that case it looks not bad. The only things I'd change are:

Reducing the cargo (cargo is a good idea imo, for missile reloads at least).

Upping the crew some to include those needed for the gunboats.

Upping the gunboats to something useful, 200-400tons. And it wouldn't be a bad idea, tactically, if they were jump capable in case a Rider gets left behind in a retreat.

Putting the low berths for the emergency watch back in. It's cheap and takes little space and is more valuable than the backup bridge which costs a lot more and takes much more space. In fact if I remember HG combat right backup bridges are a poor investment, I'd probably drop it, especially for a Rider. Now on a Battleship maybe...

Put the purifiers back aboard too. Again they are cheap and take up little space. And they are (depending on the interpretation) required for the use of fuel without mucking up the power plant. The Riders also seem to be an option for refuelling the Carrier in which case the purifiers are doubly good.

Oh, and the original Power Plant rating is 25, the USP code of Q is in error and should be R. We know it's 25 from the description of 5000EP. Of course the ship doesn't really need that much power being about 2000EP overpowered. I guess it's for damage soak but if I remember HG combat right it's still way more than needed.

Oops, one more thing (for now

) the computer should be a fib model of course. Minor oversight

mike wightman · Jan 17, 2006

[munchkin mode]try dropping its tonnage by a few tons, you miss out on a bay, but you are more difficult to hit...
make sure there are some energy weapon batteries to fill up the USP...
use factor 7 PA turret batteries instead of bays, saves 20EP, 10MCr, and 140 tons (and a couple of crew)[/munchkin mode]

mike wightman · Jan 17, 2006

I think at TL15 a light battle rider (including armour factor 15 and a jump 1 drive) should be around the 18kt mark (#N spinal meson), a medium rider 25-30kt (#R spinal meson), and a heavy rider 35-40kt (#T spinal meson).
This also assumes factor 9 screens and agility 6.

robject · Jan 17, 2006

How would a simulated battle program work? How would a ship decide how to distribute its weaponry amongst a set of targets? Is there a sure-fire heuristic, or is this going to be more or less subjective?

And really, does it matter? Ships firing randomly at live targets might, over time, show the same trend I'm looking for anyhow, eh?

The Oz · Jan 17, 2006

I can get a factor-R meson gun into a 19,900 dton hull, with factor-15 armor, Agility-6, backup bridge, computer and screens. Quite a nice medium rider.

But it doesn't have a jump drive. To get a jump-1 drive, you have to drop the meson gun to factor-N. It's a matter of choice: firepower or flexibility.

TheEngineer · Jan 17, 2006

I went thru this topic for my own space combat sim. Still aiming to expand it to fleet battle, I came to the conclusion that you would need something like a scoring system, in order to analyse the battle situation, identify priority targets, "no risk" targets etc..

mike wightman · Jan 17, 2006

I wonder if it would be worth a rider/tender squadron including both the heavy gun variant and the jump capable variant?

robject · Jan 17, 2006

Oh, a strategic mix of riders. That's interesting.

Ach, I've flip-flopped to realize that some fast and easy targetting mechanism would be nice to have. Perhaps matching the weapon size to the best target size, with plenty of overlap.

Spine - large ships - 10,000 tons and up
Bays - medium ships - 1000 to 20,000 tons
Turrets - small ships - up to 5000 tons

<blockquote>code:<hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">sub attack
{
foreach my $weapon (@weapons)
{
my $target = find_target($weapon);
$target->is_attacked_with( $weapon )
if $target;
}
}

sub find_target
{
my $weapon = shift;
my @list = randomize @targets;
foreach my $enemy (@list)
{
return $enemy
if $weapon->min_rating >= $enemy->vol
&& $weapon->max_rating <= $enemy->vol;
}
return 0; # noone to shoot at
}</pre>[/QUOTE]

[HG] Slugfest with the 154th

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